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Sinn Fein - looming health service disaster?

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Comments

  • #242
    Timberrrrrrrr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,958 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    God, do I really have to explain this?
    If you leave a well paid job (and 100,000 + is a well paid job) with the 'sole' reason of earning more and more, then that is 'greed'.

    That's not what you said though was it?
    Happyman42 wrote: »
    If your sole reason for emigration is for money, then that is greed in my book.

    What if someone changes company for a higher salary? Are they greedy too?


  • #243
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »
    That's not what you said though was it?



    What if someone changes company for a higher salary? Are they greedy too?

    If it is solely for money when already well paid then yes.


    greed (grēd)
    n.
    An excessive desire to acquire or possess more than what one needs or deserves, especially with respect to material wealth:


  • #244
    FreudianSlippers
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,396 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    If it is solely for money when already well paid then yes.


    greed (grēd)
    n.
    An excessive desire to acquire or possess more than what one needs or deserves, especially with respect to material wealth:
    Can I ask what you do for a living?


  • #245
    rrpc
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,244 ✭✭✭rrpc


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    We are talking about people already in jobs leaving (see OP) and that 'mass exodus' collapsing a service
    People WITHOUT jobs leaving the country cannot cause a sector to collapse.
    You made a bald statement about people emigrating which you contextualised by specifying money as their sole reason for doing so and called them greedy. There was no reference to the OP in that post, so stop trying to drag it in now.

    Just for clarity, could you please tell us what would make emigration for money acceptable in your view?


  • #246
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    FreudianSlippers wrote: »
    Can I ask what you do for a living?

    I run my own businesses. What difference does that make?


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  • #247
    Timberrrrrrrr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,958 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    I run my own businesses. What difference does that make?

    So you never promote your staff and pay them more or hire someone from another company offering them higher wages for their skills/experience?


  • #248
    FreudianSlippers
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,396 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    I run my own businesses. What difference does that make?
    Are you not obliged to ensure that your businesses receive maximum profits? Or are you saying that once your businesses receive a certain set amount of money you reject all further income?


    (I was asking to illustrate a point rather than take a swipe)


  • #249
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    If it is solely for money when already well paid then yes.


    greed (grēd)
    n.
    An excessive desire to acquire or possess more than what one needs or deserves, especially with respect to material wealth:


    What is well paid?

    The minimum wage in Ireland is well paid compared to Africa. Are people who come to Ireland and work for the minimum wage greedy because they are better off than the people they left behind.

    Who defines what is well-paid? You? SF? Somebody else? When did we go down this begrudgery road?


  • #250
    rrpc
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,244 ✭✭✭rrpc


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Yes, and as I have been saying, 'salary' is just one of the issues.
    Are you having trouble keeping track of what you are saying?
    Happyman42 wrote:
    Money has always been better abroad, living standards have always been better, and the weather has always been better. Why hasn't the health service collapsed from mass exodus before now?

    Somebody please explain.

    So I explained. I quoted a document that said it was near collapse and which gave reasons for that. That was two years ago. By all accounts, things have disimproved since then and reducing income can only accelerate the problem.


  • #251
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »
    So you never promote your staff and pay them more or hire someone from another company offering them higher wages for their skills/experience?
    FreudianSlippers wrote: »
    Are you not obliged to ensure that your businesses receive maximum profits? Or are you saying that once your businesses receive a certain set amount of money you reject all further income?


    (I was asking to illustrate a point rather than take a swipe)

    Anybody I employ is paid a fair wage. I do need to make a profit but I give a good service and I get a fair return, 'maximising profits at somebody elses expense is anathema to me. I don't exploit or overcharge.


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  • #252
    Timberrrrrrrr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,958 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Anybody I employ is paid a fair wage. I do need to make a profit but I give a good service and I get a fair return, 'maximising profits at somebody elses expense is anathema to me. I don't exploit or overcharge.

    You need a manager

    The perfect candidate comes along

    He/she currently earns 35k pa

    They say they will work for you for 38k pa

    Would you refuse to hire this greedy person who is exactly the person you need?


  • #253
    handlemaster
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,003 ✭✭✭handlemaster


    do sinn fein ever work anything out as in how it will end up. Joe Duffy politics of what the gullible public will swallow seems to all they do.


  • #254
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    rrpc wrote: »


    So I explained. I quoted a document that said it was near collapse and which gave reasons for that. That was two years ago. By all accounts, things have disimproved since then and reducing income can only accelerate the problem.

    Maybe it is my eyesight but could you quote where it says in that document where it says 'near collapse'. You wouldn't be hysterically exaggerating ala 'mass exodus' would you? :rolleyes:

    There has been 'problems' in the heath service for as long as I remember, successive governments and ministers have promised to fix them. None of them have and many, particularly in the last twenty years have even tried, like Varadkar, capitulating to vested interests and strong lobby groups.


  • #255
    RecordStraight
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭RecordStraight


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Maybe it is my eyesight but could you quote where it says in that document where it says 'near collapse'. You wouldn't be hysterically exaggerating ala 'mass exodus' would you? :rolleyes:
    Happyman, you keep trotting out the line about a mass exodus being an exaggeration, as if that is a fact.

    Can you prove that this will not occur? Please cite sources.

    Otherwise, admit it is at best an opinion or at worst mere wishful thinking on your part that flies in the face of reality.


  • #256
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #257
    rrpc
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,244 ✭✭✭rrpc


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Maybe it is my eyesight but could you quote where it says in that document where it says 'near collapse'. You wouldn't be hysterically exaggerating ala 'mass exodus' would you? :rolleyes:
    The intro I quoted before the link said it all. Did you not read it?

    It used words and phrases like 'stability of the healthcare system' and 'critical shortages' and critical that they 'solve the problem'.

    You don't combine words like stability, critical and problem about something that's going to be grand really. :rolleyes:


  • #258
    Ace2007
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,029 ✭✭✭✭Ace2007


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Money has always been better abroad, living standards have always been better, and the weather has always been better. Why hasn't the health service collapsed from mass exodus before now?

    Somebody please explain.

    Because those who stay keep it open, but then again we have reports of increase death rates and certain hospitals, babies dying on birth - why is this?

    Perhaps it's because those in the hospitals are not up to the standard they should be, perhaps if we paid top dollar for the best doctors and nurses around the world these things wouldn't happen.

    No body will ever know the truth, but if the death rate is high is rural hospitals there is a reason for it.

    If you fail to invest in an organisation, then expect failure - unfortunately when it comes to health - failure can mean death.

    How much should they be paid? IMO, when it comes to health they should be paid well, anybody can be an accountant or a teacher, but only a few would have the skills to be doctors. Top doctors should be getting min 250k. SF going to offer 100k - do you really want to take the risk to see how that plan works?


  • #259
    RecordStraight
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭RecordStraight


    rrpc wrote: »
    You don't combine words like stability, critical and problem about something that's going to be grand really. :rolleyes:
    Some posters are great at demanding proof, but very bad at providing it when asked and very, very bad at explaining why their opinions are somehow fact.


  • #260
    rrpc
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,244 ✭✭✭rrpc


    RecordStraight wrote: »
    Some posters are great at demanding proof, but very bad at providing it when asked and very, very bad at explaining why their opinions are somehow fact.
    Yeah, I noticed.


  • #261
    RecordStraight
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭RecordStraight


    Ace2007 wrote: »
    Top doctors should be getting min 250k. SF going to offer 100k - do you really want to take the risk to see how that plan works?
    The idea that skilled, mobile workers in an international market like medicine will be lining up to work for 100k before tax is just laughable.

    Sinn Fein and their fans are asking you to switch off your brain and not think about the implications.


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  • #262
    rrpc
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,244 ✭✭✭rrpc


    Ace2007 wrote: »
    Because those who stay keep it open, but then again we have reports of increase death rates and certain hospitals, babies dying on birth - why is this?

    Perhaps it's because those in the hospitals are not up to the standard they should be, perhaps if we paid top dollar for the best doctors and nurses around the world these things wouldn't happen.
    From the same report that I quoted above:
    According to the Clinical Indemnity Scheme there were 83,611 reported errors in 2011 (compared to 55,058 in 2007) in Irish hospitals throughout the country.


  • #263
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Anybody I employ is paid a fair wage. I do need to make a profit but I give a good service and I get a fair return, 'maximising profits at somebody elses expense is anathema to me. I don't exploit or overcharge.


    I have yet to meet an established business owner claiming to pay a fair wage to an employee that is greater than the earnings they take out of the business. Until I do, I don't believe any of them are paying a "fair" wage.


  • #264
    maccored
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,793 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    JacquesDeLad wrote: »
    Tumbleweed will start blowing through this thread shortly.

    Deafening silence.

    Sinn Fein has nothing to offer this country.

    another snoresville 'them shinners are bad' thread. boring.


  • #265
    RecordStraight
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭RecordStraight


    maccored wrote: »
    another snoresville 'them shinners are bad' thread. boring.
    You don't think that halving the pay of doctors will result in doctors leaving Ireland then?

    Or you just don't care if the system collapses? We know that any criticism of Sinn Fein is taboo to certain people, but political parties need to be held to account.

    (as an aside, I think we begin to see how seriously Sinn Feiners are willing to engage in serious debate about issues of policy)


  • #266
    JacquesDeLad
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 969 ✭✭✭JacquesDeLad


    Political movements which try to devalue the medical profession have stepped over an ideological cliff and it should set alarm bells ringing about how they see the social order.

    The Khmer Rouge saw doctors as bourgeois exploiters of the poor, to be reeducated or deported. A lot of Sinn Fein's rhetoric is similar to Pol Pot's insular nationalist views of the World. He was very popular with the less well off and uneducated too.

    https://halshs.archives-ouvertes.fr/halshs-00327711/document

    Sinn Fein are a long way from building pyramids of skulls but even the CPK had benign beginnings.


  • #267
    RecordStraight
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭RecordStraight


    JacquesDeLad wrote: »
    Political movements which try to devalue the medical profession have stepped over an ideological cliff and it should set alarm bells ringing about how they see the social order.

    The Khmer Rouge saw doctors as bourgeois exploiters of the poor, to be reeducated or deported. A lot of Sinn Fein's rhetoric is similar to Pol Pot's insular nationalist views of the World. He was very popular with the less well off and uneducated too.

    https://halshs.archives-ouvertes.fr/halshs-00327711/document

    Sinn Fein are a long way from building pyramids of skulls but even the CPK had benign beginnings.
    I don't think there's any danger that Sinn Fein are going to become the Khmer Rouge, but I certainly think there's a risk of them doing something idiotic to curry favour with certain voters that damages an already creaking health system.


  • #268
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    maccored wrote: »
    another snoresville 'them shinners are bad' thread. boring.

    Another high-quality response from a SF supporter.


  • #269
    Ace2007
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,029 ✭✭✭✭Ace2007


    rrpc wrote: »
    From the same report that I quoted above:

    i'm not sure if you are agreeing or disagreeing with my point, but you quote shows that since the downturn more errors have been made is hospitals - is this because the best doctors/nurses are leaving the country because of the cuts in wages?


  • #270
    rrpc
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,244 ✭✭✭rrpc


    Ace2007 wrote: »
    i'm not sure if you are agreeing or disagreeing with my point, but you quote shows that since the downturn more errors have been made is hospitals - is this because the best doctors/nurses are leaving the country because of the cuts in wages?

    I'm agreeing with you. Just adding some evidence to your point because apparently that's a requirement from certain quarters around here. ;)


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  • #271
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,016 ✭✭✭✭jank


    To be honest the level of basic economic understanding from Sinn Fein and their supporters is shocking. There are many many Irish people leaving Australia now to move back to Ireland due to improved economic conditions brought about by 'Austerity'. I can imagine of these people leaving again if Sinn Fein implement their whacky polices.


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