Sinn Fein - looming health service disaster?

RecordStraight · 10-03-2015 05:14PM

Happyman42 wrote: »

To pay doctors half of what we pay them now and take on vested interests in our health service, we need hundreds of billions in oil revenues??

Yes - if you want to create such a high quality of life that people are willing to work for less.

You are forever banging on about how crap things are here (see your 'ruined lives' post earlier for example). Because this place is not as nice to live in, we need to pay more to hire the same talent.

...unless you're now going to argue that Ireland is actually a great place to live with great public services?

NewCorkLad · 10-03-2015 05:15PM

There is no point comparing our country and health service to other countries, there are positives and negatives to everywhere.

Happyman42 are you honestly saying you think that if we half the wages of our doctors, that some doctors will not decide to leave putting our stressed health service under even more pressure?

Happyman42 · 10-03-2015 05:18PM

NewCorkLad wrote: »

that some doctors will not decide to leave putting our stressed health service under even more pressure?

I have been saying that 'some' will leave from the start. It is others who are having hysterical breakdowns about apocalypse.

NewCorkLad · 10-03-2015 05:22PM

Happyman42 wrote: »

I have been saying that 'some' will leave from the start. It is others who are having hysterical breakdowns about apocalypse.

And you think that losing current doctors and finding it hard to attract more doctors will some how lead to a better health service and that is why you are defending it?

Happyman42 · 10-03-2015 05:25PM

NewCorkLad wrote: »

And you think that losing current doctors and finding it hard to attract more doctors will some how lead to a better health service and that is why you are defending it?

I am saying that the salaries paid to PS in this country are out of control and have to be tackled. I am saying that our Health Service is already broken and needs to be radically overhauled from the top down. Until then we won't have a 'better' health service and will continue to waste vast sums of money to keep it afloat.
Wages paid to doctors is just a small part of the reform needed.

RecordStraight · 10-03-2015 05:26PM

Happyman42 wrote: »

I am saying that the salaries paid to PS in this country are out of control and have to be tackled. I am saying that our Health Service is already broken and needs to be radically overhauled from the top down. Until then we won't have a 'better' health service and will continue to waste vast sums of money to keep it afloat.
Wages paid to doctors is just a small part of the reform needed.

...and that it doesn't matter that any number of doctors may move (back?) abroad, leaving us somewhere between quite short and desperately short of skilled medics?

NewCorkLad · 10-03-2015 05:27PM

Happyman42 wrote: »

I am saying that the salaries paid to PS in this country are out of control and have to be tackled. I am saying that our Health Service is already broken and needs to be radically overhauled from the top down. Until then we won't have a 'better' health service and will continue to waste vast sums of money to keep it afloat.
Wages paid to doctors is just a small part of the reform needed.

So you think to best way to start tackling the health service problem in this country is to slash doctors wages and then figure out the rest of the stuff later?

Permabear · 10-03-2015 05:32PM

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Happyman42 · 10-03-2015 05:33PM

NewCorkLad wrote: »

So you think to best way to start tackling the health service problem in this country is to slash doctors wages and then figure out the rest of the stuff later?

No...and I see nothing to suggest that would happen. Part of root and branch reform rolled out over a period of time. If it wasn't then I would think it would be suicidal.
Kinda like setting up a Water company and making a hames of it.

Permabear · 10-03-2015 05:35PM

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NewCorkLad · 10-03-2015 05:36PM

Happyman42 wrote: »

No...and I see nothing to suggest that would happen. Part of root and branch reform rolled out over a period of time. If it wasn't then I would think it would be suicidal.

But that is what they are proposing and you were defending.

Happyman42 · 10-03-2015 05:41PM

NewCorkLad wrote: »

But that is what they are proposing and you were defending.

That they will cut salaries and do nothing else? Is that what you are saying? Funny, I just read a long PDF on their proposals for the health service, of which the cap was just a tiny part.

hmmm · 10-03-2015 05:42PM

Happyman42 wrote: »

I am saying that the salaries paid to PS in this country are out of control and have to be tackled.

I agree - but how will a blunt instrument like cutting them all to 100k solve anything? What about the legions of middle management earning 80 grand a year who have little or nothing to do?

RecordStraight · 10-03-2015 05:42PM

Happyman42 wrote: »

That they will cut salaries and do nothing else? Is that what you are saying? Funny, I just read a long PDF on their proposals for the health service, of which the cap was just a tiny part.

Does this long PDF explain how they expect doctors to work in Ireland for half what they would get abroad?

Happyman42 · 10-03-2015 05:45PM

RecordStraight wrote: »

Does this long PDF explain how they expect doctors to work in Ireland for half what they would get abroad?

I would expect somebody on a 100.000 grand and with a degree to figure it out for themselves...wouldn't you?

Happyman42 · 10-03-2015 05:47PM

hmmm wrote: »

I agree - but how will a blunt instrument like cutting them all to 100k solve anything? What about the legions of middle management earning 80 grand a year who have little or nothing to do?

How would you get salaries down to sustainable levels if not by a cap?

hmmm · 10-03-2015 05:49PM

Happyman42 wrote: »

How would you get salaries down to sustainable levels if not by a cap?

It's a lazy and stupid instrument and is only good for generating headlines.

If someone is worth 200k (which consultants probably are), cutting their salaries to 100k is unfair and detrimental to society (because the best doctors will leave).

A cap doesn't affect people who earn lower than the cap who are not worth what they are being paid e.g. an accountant in the HSE with nothing to do who transferred in from a health board, and is being paid 80k to sit on his behind all day.

NewCorkLad · 10-03-2015 05:50PM

Happyman42 wrote: »

I would expect somebody on a 100.000 grand and with a degree to figure it out for themselves...wouldn't you?

Does Caoimhghin O'Caolain earn that much?

Because surely it would be up to him, if they brought in this change to ensure we have enough qualified doctors to staff our health service.

RecordStraight · 10-03-2015 05:51PM

Happyman42 wrote: »

I would expect somebody on a 100.000 grand and with a degree to figure it out for themselves...wouldn't you?

?

Sorry, are you saying that the doctors who have had their pay halved will have to figure out why they are supposed to stay?

I would have thought Sinn Fein should explain it, seeing as it is their proposal and you have read a long PDF about it, even though you are not a member and hardly even support them.

Permabear · 10-03-2015 06:00PM

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Happyman42 · 10-03-2015 06:07PM

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

What is the relative worth of a clerical officer and a cardiologist as a person?

Permabear · 10-03-2015 06:08PM

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FreudianSlippers · 10-03-2015 06:08PM

Happyman42 wrote: »

I would expect somebody on a 100.000 grand and with a degree to figure it out for themselves...wouldn't you?

The fact that you think doctors have "a degree" is really telling of your lack of fundamental knowledge and respect for the medical profession IMO.

FreudianSlippers · 10-03-2015 06:09PM

Happyman42 wrote: »

What is the relative worth of a clerical officer and a cardiologist as a person?

Anyone can be a clerical officer, not many can be cardiologists.

Godge · 10-03-2015 06:09PM

Happyman42 wrote: »

What is the relative worth of a clerical officer and a cardiologist as a person?

Their relative worth as a person is exactly the same but they are not being paid to be persons.

They are being paid to be a clerical officer and a cardiologist respectively.

Put it another way, why don't you sign over a share of your business to each of your employees so that you all equally have a share in the business? Go on, answer that.

hmmm · 10-03-2015 06:11PM

Happyman42 wrote: »

What is the relative worth of a clerical officer and a cardiologist as a person?

I'm sure they're both wonderful people. I only want one of them operating on my heart.

Quin_Dub · 10-03-2015 06:12PM

Happyman42 wrote: »

How would you get salaries down to sustainable levels if not by a cap?

Salaries aren't the problem.. Value for money is...

A blunt salary cap doesn't fix the Value for money problem , it just cuts salaries..

Root and branch reform , introduction of merit based pay (and bonus payments) . Enforcement of that meritocracy such that those that work hard and deliver high quality work get the rewards and those that are swinging the lead get the boot.

Targeted redundancies instead of blanket pay cuts etc. etc. etc.

All the things the unions have fought tooth and nail against for years..

As I said before , Targeting high salaries like this is Populist rubbish that won't actually achieve anything in terms of net cost savings or more importantly, Improvements in the Service provided

Godge · 10-03-2015 06:14PM

Quin_Dub wrote: »

Salaries aren't the problem.. Value for money is...

A blunt salary cap doesn't fix the Value for money problem , it just cuts salaries..

Root and branch reform , introduction of merit based pay (and bonus payments) . Enforcement of that meritocracy such that those that work hard and deliver high quality work get the rewards and those that are swinging the lead get the boot.

Targeted redundancies instead of blanket pay cuts etc. etc. etc.

All the things the unions have fought tooth and nail against for years..

As I said before , Targeting high salaries like this is Populist rubbish that won't actually achieve anything in terms of net cost savings or more importantly, Improvements in the Service provided

Salary caps actually make the problem worse.

Those whose salaries are cut immediately lose productivity.

Those who are working hard and aspire to the higher salaries reevaluate and they also lose productivity.

The work incentive is drastically affected. Going down the SF route for the public service is the Greek way where you pay people for a job that is not done.

Happyman42 · 10-03-2015 06:34PM

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

That is not what I asked.

Godge wrote: »

They are being paid to be a clerical officer and a cardiologist respectively.
.

And the gap between them is too wide, one can live comfortably the other can't...see- 'valuing all the people'

Godge wrote: »

Salary caps actually make the problem worse.

Is that an opinion or have you any research/link etc?

rrpc · 10-03-2015 06:37PM

Godge wrote: »

The work incentive is drastically affected. Going down the SF route for the public service is the Greek way where you pay people for a job that is not done.

A job that they don't even turn up for and nobody notices.

Sinn Fein - looming health service disaster?

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