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Sinn Fein - looming health service disaster?

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Comments

  • #362
    Ace2007
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,029 ✭✭✭✭Ace2007


    daUbiq wrote: »

    Sorry, I can't resist... even though these people were "appropriately" qualified they still made a balls of running the country. Didn't they?

    senior civil servants run this country and advise the government. The main reason why this country got into trouble was the over reliance on the construction and property industries.

    Second reason are Irish people's willing attitiude to gambling - be in Sean Quinn and the billions or to ordinary folk taking out 100% mortgages

    Majority of the other European countries do t have the attitude that you should own your own home - most rent

    And even people have seen the mess we got into they are back driving up the prices in Dublin - I personally know 5 couples in their twenties who have bought houses worth over 500k - crazy amounts of money to be paying so young - how it is possible for 30 something's to buy with normal jobs when prices going sky high?

    We look at other countries policies and want to apply them here - but fail to look at negative sides of these or why they work -


  • #363
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    Ace2007 wrote: »
    For a party that need picks phrases that government use, is it not very unprofessional to lead people to think one of their most senior members in qualified in an area that he isn't?

    If i do 2 year course in medicine, and then get a job in a hospital, is it ok for me to go around telling people i'm a doctor and put in on a website that encourages people to vote for me?

    If he didn't see anything wrong in this - why change it - why not just argue the case that he did 2 years in college and worked?

    I actually know people who work at all manner of jobs, like Graphic Designers, IT professionals, Journalists, even an somebody who works as an Architect (all successfully) who don't hold qualifications in those fields but who refer to themselves as such.
    I would imagine that he changed it because of fear of the damage people like Godge could do.
    The queue to call members of SF liars in this country is a long one.
    Equating somebody who works as a civil engineer without a degree (which happens throughout construction) with somebody who endangers lives working as an unqualified doctor is a bit on the tired old hysterical side, is it not?


  • #364
    Ace2007
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,029 ✭✭✭✭Ace2007


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    I actually know people who work at all manner of jobs, like Graphic Designers, IT professionals, Journalists, even an somebody who works as an Architect (all successfully) who don't hold qualifications in those fields but who refer to themselves as such.
    I would imagine that he changed it because of fear of the damage people like Godge could do.
    The queue to call members of SF liars in this country is a long one.
    Equating somebody who works as a civil engineer without a degree (which happens throughout construction) with somebody who endangers lives working as an unqualified doctor is a bit on the tired old hysterical side, is it not?

    An unqualified engineer can in danger lives just as easy if the construction he builds falls down - then the questions would be asked about his qualifications

    Ireland is a country that we wait for something to go wrong before asking questions

    Secondly I said work in s hospital - I didn't say practise as a doctor but a are how easy it is to think that, Pearce could easily have been the coffee boy wen he called himself a civil engineer.


  • #365
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    Ace2007 wrote: »
    An unqualified engineer can in danger lives just as easy if the construction he builds falls down - then the questions would be asked about his qualifications

    Ireland is a country that we wait for something to go wrong before asking questions

    Secondly I said work in s hospital - I didn't say practise as a doctor but a are how easy it is to think that, Pearce could easily have been the coffee boy wen he called himself a civil engineer.

    Are you saying that it doesn't happen? Do we really have to list of people doing jobs and describing themselves as something they hold no qualification in, such as journalists, graphic designers, IT professionals, civil engineers etc etc.
    take yourself over to the construction section of boards and have a read, it has been common practice for years.


  • #366
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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  • #367
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    Well don't vote for those you consider 'cowboys', find an indian or two. :rolleyes:


  • #368
    rrpc
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,244 ✭✭✭rrpc


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Bertie Ahern- Minister For Finance - Accounts Clerk. Ahern has claimed or it has been claimed by others in circulated biographies that he was educated at University College Dublin and the London School of Economics but neither university has any records that show Ahern was ever one of their students.
    Worst Finance Minister we ever had. Always suspected that he acted as Fianna Fail treasurer for that period and left running the states' finances up to the DoF
    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Ruairi Quinn - Minister For Finance - Qualified as an Architect.
    Very good Finance Minister. Was definitely part of the solution that brought Ireland out of the recession that started back when Fianna Fail bought the 1977 election.
    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Charlie McGreevy- Qualified Accountant.
    Also a very good Finance Minister. If he hadn't been retired to Brussels may well have prevented the worst excesses of the Sceptic Kitten.
    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Brian Cowen- Minister for Finance - Qualified in Law.
    Brian Lenihan - Minister For Finance - Law degree and Senior counsel
    Both extremely poor at the job. Brian Lenihan tried but his lack of understanding of finance crippled him. Cowen just didn't bother.
    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Michael Noonan - Minister for Finance - School Teacher
    So far is doing very well. Many may dispute this, but he's been assured, tough and uncompromising when these characteristics were needed.
    daUbiq wrote: »
    Sorry, I can't resist... even though these people were "appropriately" qualified they still made a balls of running the country. Didn't they?
    Some did, some didn't. If I was to generalise, I'd say lawyers make bad Finance Ministers.


  • #369
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    rrpc wrote: »


    Some did, some didn't. If I was to generalise, I'd say lawyers make bad Finance Ministers.

    Please fix your post or your quote tags. I didn't say this
    Happyman42 wrote:
    Sorry, I can't resist... even though these people were "appropriately" qualified they still made a balls of running the country. Didn't they?


  • #370
    hmmm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,202 ✭✭✭✭hmmm


    rrpc wrote: »
    Some did, some didn't. If I was to generalise, I'd say lawyers make bad Finance Ministers.
    Schauble is a lawyer and he has been a very steady hand on the tiller for Germany. He's also shown he has teeth when the Greeks decided they were going to try and insult and bully him. His constant mentioning of the "Troika" over the past few days is also expert level trolling.


  • #371
    rrpc
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,244 ✭✭✭rrpc


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Please fix your post or your quote tags. I didn't say this
    Apologies, fell foul of bad quoting by another poster. Fixed now and proper attribution in all quotes.


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  • #372
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    rrpc wrote: »
    So far is doing very well. Many may dispute this, but he's been assured, tough and uncompromising when these characteristics were needed.


    Oh I have no doubt there are those who hold him as a hero as he has rescued them while crippling and destroying the lives of others.


  • #373
    RecordStraight
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭RecordStraight


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Oh I have no doubt there are those who hold him as a hero as he has rescued them while crippling and destroying the lives of others.
    Talk about hysteria! :D

    I'm not sure exactly who he crippled since he took over as finance minister. My major issue with him is his intentional stoking of a new property bubble.

    Anyway, it would be nice to turn the discussion back to the consequences of Sinn Fein's public sector pay cap and the effect it would have on the health service.


  • #374
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #375
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    RecordStraight wrote: »
    Talk about hysteria! :D

    I'm not sure exactly who he crippled since he took over as finance minister. My major issue with him is his intentional stoking of a new property bubble.

    Anyway, it would be nice to turn the discussion back to the consequences of Sinn Fein's public sector pay cap and the effect it would have on the health service.

    Not only do you live in the fantasy world of 'mass exodusi' and 'system collapse' you can't see the real damage austerity, targeted at the less well off and middle earners, has done.


  • #376
    rrpc
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,244 ✭✭✭rrpc


    So back on topic then.

    I heard on the lunchtime news today that there is an entire floor of Cork University Hospital completely empty because of staff shortages and particularly shortage of doctors.


  • #377
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    Well we are still waiting on RecordStraight's thought's on the comaparison between here and another similar sized country- Norway. Who have gotten work-life balance right and only pay around the 100,000 mark with no 'mass exodus' or 'system collapses'.
    He/She only seems to want to discuss a mythical 'SF apocalypse' :eek:


  • #378
    rrpc
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,244 ✭✭✭rrpc


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Well we are still waiting on RecordStraight's thought's on the comaparison between here and another similar sized country- Norway. Who have gotten work-life balance right and only pay around the 100,000 mark with no 'mass exodus' or 'system collapses'.
    He/She only seems to want to discuss a mythical 'SF apocalypse' :eek:
    Norwegian Tax rates are much lower than here. Averaging between 24% and 28% depending on where you live (Norwegian taxes include a local component). They also have an equivalent of PRSI that is between 0 and 12% depending again on where you live and what you earn.

    Norway is an oil producing country, so Government income is derived from sources beyond taxation and semi-state exchequer returns.

    Not very comparable to us really.


  • #379
    jmayo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,227 ✭✭✭✭jmayo


    daUbiq wrote: »
    Ruairi Quinn - Minister For Finance - Qualified as an Architect.

    Ruairi Quinn was minister of finance when the real celtic tiger was being put together and was pretty successful.
    daUbiq wrote: »
    Charlie McGreevy- Qualified Accountant.
    The truly horific damage was done after he left and biffo took over.
    daUbiq wrote: »
    Michael Noonan - Minister for Finance - School Teacher

    Actually hasn't been too bad considering what he was facing.
    Happyman42 wrote: »
    I actually know people who work at all manner of jobs, like Graphic Designers, IT professionals, Journalists, even an somebody who works as an Architect (all successfully) who don't hold qualifications in those fields but who refer to themselves as such.

    Really you don't need specialist qualification to work in IT or as a journalist.
    One requires knwoledge of computers and the other requires a bit of an ability to string a few sentences together.
    Architect and graphics would require some specialist knowledge.
    Happyman42 wrote: »
    I would imagine that he changed it because of fear of the damage people like Godge could do.
    The queue to call members of SF liars in this country is a long one.

    Well it isn't hard considering how many times they have been caught out.
    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Equating somebody who works as a civil engineer without a degree (which happens throughout construction) with somebody who endangers lives working as an unqualified doctor is a bit on the tired old hysterical side, is it not?

    And we wonder why we had so many substandard half arsed developments. :rolleyes:

    I am not allowed discuss …



  • #380
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    rrpc wrote: »
    Norwegian Tax rates are much lower than here. Averaging between 24% and 28% depending on where you live (Norwegian taxes include a local component). They also have an equivalent of PRSI that is between 0 and 12% depending again on where you live and what you earn.

    Norway is an oil producing country, so Government income is derived from sources beyond taxation and semi-state exchequer returns.

    Not very comparable to us really.

    Why are THEY not all mass 'exodusing' to Qatar where they would pay no tax.
    Stop deflecting please this is not about how Norway funds itself but about how it has gotten something right and kept it's doctors while not climbing on an out of control salary rollercoaster.


  • #381
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    jmayo wrote: »
    Ruairi Quinn was minister of finance when the real celtic tiger was being put together and was pretty successful.

    So it is possible that somebody without a specialist degree can be a successful Minister iyo. It is my opinion too.





    Really you don't need specialist qualification to work in IT or as a journalist.
    One requires knwoledge of computers and the other requires a bit of an ability to string a few sentences together.
    Architect and graphics would require some specialist knowledge.

    What you require is the self knowledge to know what you don't know. Something a few degree holders I know need to realise as well. ;)





    And we wonder why we had so many substandard half arsed developments. :rolleyes:
    Agreed, all I am saying is that it happens, particularly in construction.


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  • #382
    RecordStraight
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭RecordStraight


    Be aware that Happyman will do everything he can to steer the discussion away from Sinn Fein's proposals regarding the health service. Try not to let him do it too often.


  • #383
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #384
    Timberrrrrrrr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,959 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Why are THEY not all mass 'exodusing' to Qatar where they would pay no tax.
    Stop deflecting please this is not about how Norway funds itself but about how it has gotten something right and kept it's doctors while not climbing on an out of control salary rollercoaster.

    Iceland is seeing it's doctors leaving due to pay cuts

    Iceland has a population of just over 300k, their doctors went on strike due to pay cuts similar to what SF are proposing
    Compensation in the Icelandic healthcare sector is no longer competitive with those in our neighbouring countries, both in terms of salaries and holiday allowances.
    At present, doctors who specialize abroad also face a hefty wage cut upon returning to the island—experts have expressed serious concern that Iceland will soon face a shortage of medical specialists if their salaries don’t start reflecting what comparable positions in neighbouring countries yield.
    Úlfur Thorodssen, a medical student in his final year, does not imagine he’ll return to the country after becoming a specialist with the situation the way it is right now. He will have to study overseas, which he estimates takes around five years, after which his international earning potential will outweigh anything Iceland has to offer. “After living somewhere for five years, you’ve made a life for yourself, and have higher wages than here, so why should anyone return home?” he asks.


  • #385
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    RecordStraight wrote: »
    Be aware that Happyman will do everything he can to steer the discussion away from Sinn Fein's proposals regarding the health service. Try not to let him do it too often.

    Say the poster who is still fantasizing about a non existent mass exodus.
    I have answered all your questions as best I can. You are STILL hiding from questions you have been asked, content to demean and hysterically froth about your boogey men and women. Carry on.


  • #386
    rrpc
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,244 ✭✭✭rrpc


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Why are THEY not all mass 'exodusing' to Qatar where they would pay no tax.
    Stop deflecting please this is not about how Norway funds itself but about how it has gotten something right and kept it's doctors while not climbing on an out of control salary rollercoaster.
    Deflecting?

    Government income is a factor of taxation. The less income the more tax.

    They are not all "mass exodusing" for the very good reason that they pay less tax than us and have better services because of that "deflection" stuff you didn't like.


  • #387
    RecordStraight
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭RecordStraight


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Say the poster who is still fantasizing about a non existent mass exodus.
    I have answered all your questions as best I can. You are STILL hiding from questions you have been asked, content to demean and hysterically froth about your boogey men and women. Carry on.
    Ah don't be cross. :)


  • #388
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Why are THEY not all mass 'exodusing' to Qatar where they would pay no tax.
    Stop deflecting please this is not about how Norway funds itself but about how it has gotten something right and kept it's doctors while not climbing on an out of control salary rollercoaster.

    Norway, Qatar and Saudi are oil-rich countries with low taxation rates and no problem attracting high-demand medical staff.

    You are only making everyone else's point by banging on the Norway drum.

    Next sidetrack please.


  • #389
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    rrpc wrote: »
    Deflecting?

    Government income is a factor of taxation. The less income the more tax.

    They are not all "mass exodusing" for the very good reason that they pay less tax than us and have better services because of that "deflection" stuff you didn't like.
    Godge wrote: »
    Norway, Qatar and Saudi are oil-rich countries with low taxation rates and no problem attracting high-demand medical staff.

    You are only making everyone else's point by banging on the Norway drum.

    Next sidetrack please.

    Have a look at some of the figures and comparisons here
    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/even-norways-medical-elite-can-only-dream-of-our-docs-whopping-wages-28821752.html
    and tell me we have nothing to learn.
    There is not only one way to run a health service or a country for that matter.


  • #390
    RecordStraight
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭RecordStraight


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Have a look at some of the figures and comparisons here
    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/even-norways-medical-elite-can-only-dream-of-our-docs-whopping-wages-28821752.html
    and tell me we have nothing to learn.
    There is not only one way to run a health service or a country for that matter.
    All we need is hundreds of billions in oil revenue and a sovereign wealth fund worth nearly a trillion dollars and I'm sure we'll be able to match the quality of life in Norway.

    Do we have that?


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  • #391
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    RecordStraight wrote: »
    All we need is hundreds of billions in oil revenue and a sovereign wealth fund worth nearly a trillion dollars and I'm sure we'll be able to match the quality of life in Norway.

    Do we have that?

    To pay doctors half of what we pay them now and take on vested interests in our health service, we need hundreds of billions in oil revenues?? :confused::)


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