Sinn Fein - looming health service disaster?

Permabear · 09-03-2015 01:57PM

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Crooked Jack · 09-03-2015 01:58PM

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

That's nothing to do with what you said:

In your world it's all morality; in the real world profits are key to progressing science and technology.

No, in "my world" the operation would have been available here on the NHS

marienbad · 09-03-2015 01:59PM

Happyman42 wrote: »

100,000 and the ability to earn more would turn the world's of 90%+ of the people of this country I would imagine.

the majority of doctors I have encountered in my 53 years have been committed and caring individuals. A 'mass exodus' is but the fantasy of the deluded imo, and nobody on this thread has convinced me that it will happen.

The doctors and consultants do not have to move abroad , they can just move exclusively into the Private Hospital sector .

This could be the biggest boost to a two tier health care system yet . The best and the brightest move and the also rans stay.

Permabear · 09-03-2015 02:01PM

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Crooked Jack · 09-03-2015 02:01PM

Permabear wrote: »

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Do you really think because Gerry Adams needed an operation that wasnt available here I'm going to change my views on universal healthcare?
You people are living parodies of yourselves

Crooked Jack · 09-03-2015 02:02PM

Permabear wrote: »

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And you think that's an argument for introducing such a system here???

Permabear · 09-03-2015 02:04PM

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marienbad · 09-03-2015 02:05PM

Crooked Jack wrote: »

No doubt this will total derail the thread but Adams said he got the surgery in the US, after a doctor advised him to get it there, because a friend offered to pay for a procedure he needed that was not available in the north.
Hardly flouting socialist principals there. There's nothing in socialism that says you have to be in pain. But by all means ignore that entire aspect and leap around with the eye catching Indo headline like a child with a new toy

Come on ! are you saying this procedure was nowhere available in the UK ? And he got a 'dig out' from a friend to help pay for it ?

In your socialist world should we not all be judged on need then ? Can we take it than all future procedures not available in N.I the patients will be transferred to the US ?

What is the difference here then from the Haughey/Lenihan affair ?

Happyman42 · 09-03-2015 02:23PM

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

Shows how little you know about things. If you think because you know a couple of GPs that you know anything about the earning capacity of Irish doctors nationally and abroad, then you're deluded.

Unless there are other factors, no doctors (other than potentially GPs) are going to stay here and do a job they could get paid at least twice as much for in the UK or North America.

There have always been far off greener fields. Your 'mass exodus' theories have not been proven.

Crooked Jack · 09-03-2015 02:26PM

marienbad wrote: »

Come on ! are you saying this procedure was nowhere available in the UK ? And he got a 'dig out' from a friend to help pay for it ?

Well it obviously wasnt. Why go to the bother of going to america when he could have gotten it here first. He stated it was an issue that had been bothering him for some five years so it wasnt an issue of waiting lists.
Anyway, Im not here to defend Gerry Adams. The facts of that case are freely available for you to look up and make up your own mind.

marienbad wrote: »

In your socialist world should we not all be judged on need then ? Can we take it than all future procedures not available in N.I the patients will be transferred to the US ?

You're suggesting that because one patient got an issue resolved privately that the entire NHS should be changed to get wealthy friends to pay for procedures???
Listen, you clearly have no idea what your point is so how am i supposed to.
Like I said, im not here to defend adams. That was his own personal health issue, ask him if you have issue with how he dealt with it. My views on healthcare are very clear.

marienbad wrote: »

What is the difference here then from the Haughey/Lenihan affair ?

Im not familiar with this

WheatenBriar · 09-03-2015 02:32PM

Happyman42 wrote: »

There have always been far off greener fields. Your 'mass exodus' theories have not been proven.

There won't be any mass exodus because consultants salaries wouldn't fall under a SF government, the price paid for them would be as competitive as the price paid for an xray machine
There's no mention of specifically of specialist health jobs in the SF policy is there?

SF are logical in that respect, they know they're not going to run the service without essential machines or not enough specialists
There's no need to muddy the message at this stage though
It's going to need to be clarified though

FreudianSlippers · 09-03-2015 02:45PM

Crooked Jack wrote: »

No, in "my world" the operation would have been available here on the NHS

Yes, in your world where nobody has to pay for these things.

FreudianSlippers · 09-03-2015 02:47PM

spam_sandwich wrote: »

sinn feins proposals are b0ll0cks but GP,s in ireland earn considerably more than in the uk and most of europe

Which is why I specifically excluded GPs from my statement.

mrbrianj · 09-03-2015 02:51PM

WheatenBriar wrote: »

My apologies I was thinking Germany,our biggest EU economy,have you stats on there?

Yes Germany is only about 43% private home ownership - this skews the averages as they are so out of kilter with the rest of europe.

Good social housing, secure renting, property prices not going anywhere, and the effect bomber command had on house prices a generation ago. All factors Germany have to deal with others dont. Some there consider the imbalance a bit of a problem too.

The UK may be a better cultural comparison for us, but then factor in their large social housing % - they are around 65%.

our love affair with home ownership is shared with pretty much everywhere else (bar germany!)

Happyman42 · 09-03-2015 02:52PM

One of our Boards posters on Joe DUFFY! right now.

'COPD (chronic obstructive pulmonary disease) is gonna take over the world' :eek::eek::eek:

FreudianSlippers · 09-03-2015 02:52PM

Crooked Jack wrote: »

Well it obviously wasnt. Why go to the bother of going to america when he could have gotten it here first. He stated it was an issue that had been bothering him for some five years so it wasnt an issue of waiting lists.
Anyway, Im not here to defend Gerry Adams. The facts of that case are freely available for you to look up and make up your own mind.

It's available on the NHS and Chichester Clinic Belfast was offering the procedure as well at the time:

Crooked Jack · 09-03-2015 02:58PM

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

Yes, in your world where nobody has to pay for these things.

I think you'll find everybody pays for the NHS. As usual, you'd prefer tackle things you wish i'd said.

marienbad · 09-03-2015 03:01PM

Crooked Jack wrote: »

Well it obviously wasnt. Why go to the bother of going to america when he could have gotten it here first. He stated it was an issue that had been bothering him for some five years so it wasnt an issue of waiting lists.
Anyway, Im not here to defend Gerry Adams. The facts of that case are freely available for you to look up and make up your own mind.

You're suggesting that because one patient got an issue resolved privately that the entire NHS should be changed to get wealthy friends to pay for procedures???
Listen, you clearly have no idea what your point is so how am i supposed to.
Like I said, im not here to defend adams. That was his own personal health issue, ask him if you have issue with how he dealt with it. My views on healthcare are very clear.

Im not familiar with this

There in virtually no procedure unavailable in the USA that is not available in the UK. He went to America for the same reasons I presume that every one with access to money does- better treatment,better outcomes .

And I know full well what my point is - Is the socialist Mr Adams going to ensure that every patient has access to the same treatment he availed of ?
Did the doctors and consultants doing his procedure earn just 70k net do you think ?

This is no different than Tony Blair's government short changing the UK education system and he sending his kids to private schools.

It must be easy to 'live' on the average wage when all your other needs are catered for by 'dig outs' from friends , no ?

FreudianSlippers · 09-03-2015 03:29PM

Crooked Jack wrote: »

I think you'll find everybody pays for the NHS. As usual, you'd prefer tackle things you wish i'd said.

Turns out it was available on the NHS.

Down in these parts, the HSE is a drain on the entire taxation system and we aren't paying enough in vis-a-vis the costs of running the thing. Therefore, not all procedures are going to be available to all patients unless they supplement with private health insurance.

You know... paying twice.

professore · 09-03-2015 03:47PM

RecordStraight wrote: »

I'd say some would - but of course that has the exact same effect as cutting the number of doctors: fewer doctor-hours available to treat patients.

No it wouldn't - you could hire more doctors.

FreudianSlippers · 09-03-2015 03:52PM

professore wrote: »

No it wouldn't - you could hire more doctors.

So instead of 1 doctor full time at, say €200k, you want 2 doctors working part-time for €100k?

That solves the budget problem how exactly?

awec · 09-03-2015 03:53PM

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Happyman42 · 09-03-2015 04:12PM

awec wrote: »

This post is amazing. :pac:

Reducing stress and long hours by cutting their salaries. .

In order to fuel the hysteria, many on this thread are ignoring the fact that the primary reason for leaving is the stress and work load and work-life balance as evidenced by the testimony of two doctors in Qatar this morning on Sean O'Rourke. They said wage rises would not entice them back, a fixed health service would.

Permabear · 09-03-2015 04:15PM

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FreudianSlippers · 09-03-2015 04:18PM

Happyman42 wrote: »

In order to fuel the hysteria, many on this thread are ignoring the fact that the primary reason for leaving is the stress and work load and work-life balance as evidenced by the testimony of two doctors in Qatar this morning on Sean O'Rourke. They said wage rises would not entice them back, a fixed health service would.

How many medical doctors do you know? Seriously.

Medicine doesn't have a good work-life balance anywhere, particularly if you get into surgery. A fixed health service would include proper pay for the work that is being done.

There is a very good reason that I'm the only person in my family to do law instead of medicine and it's not because the work-life balance in medicine is so good.

awec · 09-03-2015 04:20PM

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Happyman42 · 09-03-2015 04:21PM

Permabear wrote: »

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One of them seemed to be working for much less.
But keep inventing doomsday scenarios if it postpones actually doing something tangible to fix the problems.
One of the reasons (if not the main one) why Norway has no issues while paying around the 100,000 mark is because the work-life balance is reasonable.

BoJack Horseman · 09-03-2015 04:22PM

awec wrote: »

They said they would come back to work in a fixed health service for 100k a year?

By "Fixed", Shinners mean NHS style.

From what I know of the UK, staff are monumentally stretched by the demands of unlimited healthcare, free at the point of access.

More work & a €60k take-home may not be the panacea Shinners hope it to be.

awec · 09-03-2015 04:24PM

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BoJack Horseman · 09-03-2015 04:25PM

awec wrote: »

The NHS is a bag of crap. Certainly not a good case study for free healthcare at the point of treatment.

I'm dubious of its merits also, but it's their plan.

Sinn Fein - looming health service disaster?

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