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Sinn Fein - looming health service disaster?

13567…51

Comments

  • #62
    Chips Lovell
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,277 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    If you already can't fill €100,000+ a year jobs, it's a reasonable conclusion that the problem is going to get worse rather than better if you cap salaries at €100,000


  • #63
    Crooked Jack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,679 ✭✭✭Crooked Jack


    JacquesDeLad wrote: »
    Tumbleweed will start blowing through this thread shortly.

    Deafening silence.

    Sinn Fein has nothing to offer this country.

    Sinn Fein supporters reply to an thread - "Here come the shinnerbots etc..."

    Sinn Fein supporters have yet to reply to a thread four replies in - "deafening silence."

    There's no suggestion doctors would leave the country if SF came to power.
    No doctors have come forward to say so. In fact if anything I'd imagine most doctors would find your assertion that they're only doctors for the money quite insulting.
    Another ridiculous anti-SF thread based totally on the fantasies of the OP and the usual suspects.


  • #64
    WheatenBriar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,170 ✭✭✭WheatenBriar


    They'd move to hospitals in NI ironically

    However this is another moot SF thread
    SF would pay the market rates for essential P.S employees,if in power
    You'll find hospital management won't be included or higher paid civil service as there are plenty of lower paid professionals well capable of doing those jobs for 80 to 100k

    There's no need for nuances like that in a SF manifesto but it would be a fairer system by far than present obviously


  • #65
    BoJack Horseman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,247 ✭✭✭✭BoJack Horseman


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    The health service is the problem, most would not come back even if the salary was half a million...therefore the salary isn't the key problem.
    Varadkar capitulated the easy way rather than fix or even begin to address the key problems in a creaking service.

    What is SF's plan to improve the public health system?


  • #66
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    Jep Gambardella wrote: »
    If you already can't fill €100,000+ a year jobs, it's a reasonable conclusion that the problem is going to get worse rather than better if you cap salaries at €100,000

    Do you advocate a cap at all?
    IMO if you allow these kind of wages to one they will have to be applied right across the PS which we cannot and never could afford.
    Why is it that Norway has reasonable wages and there is no strife, mass exodus there? Can you explain that to us?

    BTW, not being a member of SF I cannot say what their thinking is here but I would imagine that 100,000 is a political gambit or bargaining chip and that salariy caps would be a bit higher in reality.


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  • #67
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    WheatenBriar wrote: »
    They'd move to hospitals in NI ironically

    However this is another moot SF thread
    SF would pay the market rates for essential P.S employees,if in power
    You'll find hospital management won't be included or higher paid civil service as there are plenty of lower paid professionals well capable of doing those jobs for 80 to 100k

    There's no need for nuances like that in a SF manifesto but it would be a fairer system by far than present obviously


    That is rubbish. They constantly advertise senior management jobs in the public service and very few from the private sector ever apply and get those jobs. Why? Because the pay for good managers in the private sector is so much higher than 80 to 100k.


  • #68
    WheatenBriar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,170 ✭✭✭WheatenBriar


    Norway has always used their oil revenues wisely
    As a people,their culture is similar to the Dutch
    I think Irish people are very greedy relative to other western culture's
    Take our love affair(kamakaze love affair) with buying as opposed to renting as just one example


  • #69
    WheatenBriar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,170 ✭✭✭WheatenBriar


    Godge wrote: »
    That is rubbish. They constantly advertise senior management jobs in the public service and very few from the private sector ever apply and get those jobs. Why? Because the pay for good managers in the private sector is so much higher than 80 to 100k.
    I didn't say they'd poach high paid private sector workers did I?
    I said all they needed to do was offer the jobs to existing capable lower paid people


  • #70
    Kermit.de.frog
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,464 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    Either we live in a free market economy or we don't. Wage caps are market interference no matter where they are placed. It's a simple supply and demand issue.

    The reason a lot of people leave Ireland is not because they can not find work - it is because the country does not offer them the standard of living they would like. A lot of that problem is down to tax and Sinn Féin want to make that situation even worse.

    What emigrant, for example, in their right mind would want to come back to Ireland in the unlikely event of a SF government?


  • #71
    WheatenBriar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,170 ✭✭✭WheatenBriar


    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    Either we live in a free market economy or we don't.

    Well we would, but there's nothing stopping a government dropping high salaries and recruiting capable people at lower wages who would never dreamed of applying for those jobs before


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  • #72
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    WheatenBriar wrote: »
    I didn't say they'd poach high paid private sector workers did I?
    I said all they needed to do was offer the jobs to existing capable lower paid people


    There aren't existing capable lower paid people.

    There are lots of people who are lower paid and believe they are capable but then again there are some eejits on here who said they could run Irish Water.


  • #73
    Kermit.de.frog
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,464 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    WheatenBriar wrote: »
    Well we would, but there's nothing stopping a government dropping high salaries and recruiting capable people at lower wages who would never dreamed of applying for those jobs before

    But would you want them in those jobs? SF for example are proposing a double whammy - 1. restrict salaries and 2. batter anyone earning over 70k with tax.


    That is madness.


  • #74
    Chips Lovell
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,277 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Do you advocate a cap at all?

    Nope, because it never works. You either pay what it takes to fill the positions or accept that you'll have to do without those people.


  • #75
    RecordStraight
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭RecordStraight


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    I'll ask again. Can anybody show us where a 'mass exodus has collapsed a service in this country before. Or where you are getting this hysteria from.

    Yes, some will leave there is no doubt of that, many leave already after receiving their education even with a pay scale that is the envy of many other countries, this is not a new problem. Some do it from greed others do it to gain experience and some do it to get away from the restrictive practices and the crazy workloads. The lack of doctors is not a new problem.
    The health service is the problem, most would not come back even if the salary was half a million...therefore the salary isn't the key problem.
    Varadkar capitulated the easy way rather than fix or even begin to address the key problems in a creaking service. There is nothing new in that as successive ministers have shown.
    Happyman, you keep dodging the question: a THIRD of our doctors come from abroad to work in Ireland, presumably for the money in most cases.

    WHY would they stay when Sinn Fein halves their pay?


  • #76
    Kermit.de.frog
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,464 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    RecordStraight wrote: »

    WHY would they stay when Sinn Fein halves their pay?

    Adams said because they were patriotic. You can only lol. It's delusion.


  • #77
    mrbrianj
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 384 ✭✭mrbrianj


    WheatenBriar wrote: »
    Norway has always used their oil revenues wisely
    As a people,their culture is similar to the Dutch
    I think Irish people are very greedy relative to other western culture's
    Take our love affair(kamakaze love affair) with buying as opposed to renting as just one example

    EU average private home ownership - 71%
    Irish private home ownership - 71%
    Yeah right - "they ALL rent in Europe" lie again.


  • #78
    RecordStraight
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭RecordStraight


    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    Adams said because they were patriotic. You can only lol. It's delusion.
    Even the third that are from abroad? :confused:

    Can you imagine our already over-stretched service minus a third of its doctors?

    (still waiting to hear why foreign doctors will stay here when their pay is halved)


  • #79
    WheatenBriar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,170 ✭✭✭WheatenBriar


    Godge wrote: »
    There aren't existing capable lower paid people.

    There are lots of people who are lower paid and believe they are capable but then again there are some eejits on here who said they could run Irish Water.
    I'm laughing now because you're now applying a debating deflection happyman was accused of earlier
    Your statement that the only people capable of running the health service or the civil service are the high paid now there or private sector high paid is both delusional and insulting

    Think about it,there are many CEO's of sme's who don't earn more than 100k and who kept their businesses going in a tough 8 yr down turn and your saying they couldn't run a gov't department?

    Elitist much


  • #80
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    Jep Gambardella wrote: »
    Nope, because it never works. You either pay what it takes to fill the positions or accept that you'll have to do without those people.

    What a pleasant future that holds. Pay us x or we will leave, right across the PS. The status quo remains, no solutions there at all.


  • #81
    Chips Lovell
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,277 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    RecordStraight wrote: »
    still waiting to hear why foreign doctors will stay here when their pay is halved

    They value their kneecaps?


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  • #82
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    WheatenBriar wrote: »
    Well we would, but there's nothing stopping a government dropping high salaries and recruiting capable people at lower wages who would never dreamed of applying for those jobs before


    There are no capable people at lower wages. If they wouldn't dream of applying for those jobs when they were paid 110k a year, they certainly won't dream of applying for them whey are paid 70k. You seem to think the jobs are easy to do. Not a chance of getting anyone capable to take those jobs.


  • #83
    RecordStraight
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭RecordStraight


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    What a pleasant future that holds. Pay us x or we will leave, right across the PS. The status quo remains, no solutions there at all.
    Arguing from consequences fallacy.

    What about the third of our doctors who are foreign - why would they stay when SF cuts their pay by half??


  • #84
    Chips Lovell
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,277 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    What a pleasant future that holds. Pay us x or we will leave, right across the PS. The status quo remains, no solutions there at all.

    Are you honestly saying that if your employer slashed your wages and you could find a better paid job elsewhere, you wouldn't move?


  • #85
    WheatenBriar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,170 ✭✭✭WheatenBriar


    mrbrianj wrote: »
    EU average private home ownership - 71%
    Irish private home ownership - 71%
    Yeah right - "they ALL rent in Europe" lie again.
    My apologies I was thinking Germany,our biggest EU economy,have you stats on there?


  • #86
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    WheatenBriar wrote: »
    I'm laughing now because you're now applying a debating deflection happyman was accused of earlier
    Your statement that the only people capable of running the health service or the civil service are the high paid now there or private sector high paid is both delusional and insulting

    Think about it,there are many CEO's of sme's who don't earn more than 100k and who kept their businesses going in a tough 8 yr down turn and your saying they couldn't run a gov't department?

    Elitist much


    Yes, I am.

    It takes different qualities and a different mindset to run a small business with no more than 30-40 employees than running a large government department with thousands of employees reporting to a Minister and restricted by law in what you can do.


  • #87
    WheatenBriar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,170 ✭✭✭WheatenBriar


    Godge wrote: »
    Yes, I am.

    It takes different qualities and a different mindset to run a small business with no more than 30-40 employees than running a large government department with thousands of employees reporting to a Minister and restricted by law in what you can do.
    Ok no point in me arguing with a self confessed elitist except to say people earning under 100k,are being insulted here with rubbish
    Pot kettle etc


  • #88
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    Doctor coming up on Sean O'Rourke explaining why he left for Quatar (bastion of good and equal work practices! :rolleyes:)
    Will be interesting to hear what he has to say and if wage was his primary reason.


  • #89
    RecordStraight
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭RecordStraight


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Doctor coming up on Sean O'Rourke explaining why he left for Quatar (bastion of good and equal work practices! :rolleyes:)
    Will be interesting to hear what he has to say and if wage was his primary reason.
    Happyman, why would the one third of our doctors who come here from abroad stay here when Sinn Fein halves their salaries?

    (never mind all the Irish doctors who would leave)

    I think this is the fifth time I have asked you. It's ok to admit that many or most would leave.


  • #90
    Crooked Jack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,679 ✭✭✭Crooked Jack


    Jep Gambardella wrote: »
    Are you honestly saying that if your employer slashed your wages and you could find a better paid job elsewhere, you wouldn't move?

    Leave my country, family and friends because I now had to make do with a measly 100k a year for doing a job I love???
    Eh no, no I wouldn't.


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  • #91
    RecordStraight
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭RecordStraight


    Crooked Jack wrote: »
    Leave my country, family and friends because I now had to make do with a measly 100k a year for doing a job I love???
    Eh no, no I wouldn't.
    What if you were one of the one third of doctors in Ireland who come here from abroad? Perhaps you'd like to return to your country, your family and friends?

    Or if money motivates you, go to where you will get paid twice as much?


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