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Sinn Fein - looming health service disaster?

12357…51

Comments

  • #122
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    Crooked Jack wrote: »
    Again, I was responding to Godge's assertion that people with an outgoing based on a 200k salary (consultants earning 200k and over being very much in the minority by the way) would suddenly find themselves down 100k the day after SF are elected, not,as some people seem to be suggesting, that SF advocate a cap

    They will find themselves reduced to 100k after the first SF budget, because it has been part of SF budgetary policy for the last few years - are you suggesting that SF were making it up or that they don't intend to implement the budgets they promised? It is written in black and white and savings are attributed to it.

    If they only intend to apply the cap to new entrants, it will take years and years to find the savings they have included in their budget. This is the problem that people have with SF's economics. They have included things in their budget that are difficult to impossible to implement and have huge consequences and yet they expect their budgetary proposals to be taken seriously.


  • #123
    Crooked Jack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,679 ✭✭✭Crooked Jack


    RecordStraight wrote: »
    That's a fact, is it? Because you say so?

    Proof?


    The proof is that nobody has suggested this would happen, least of all doctors, except the OP.
    What more proof do you need that this whole scenario has been dreamed up by the OP?
    Where's your proof to the contrary.
    RecordStraight wrote: »
    There's nothing wrong with a cap, as long as you realise that you won't be able to hire or retain skilled people in an international market. You know, skilled people like doctors and consultants.

    As Godge's post clearly pointed out, salary is only one factor in many when it comes to people making career choices.
    This whole discussion has been based on the OP's totally baseless claim that doctors would flee the country. No other factors have been looked at. This conversation is ridiculous.


  • #124
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    RecordStraight wrote: »
    That will get a lot better when they halve doctors' and consultants' wages, won't it?

    I mean, it's not like any of them will leave, increasing the workload on the remaining doctors?

    The point is, the health service needs fixing first...root and branch, then we can talk about what people are paid.
    It will be interesting to see if SF propose this as we approach and election. Varadkar has shown that just like those before him, that he is not up to the job and will continue to paper over the cracks.


  • #125
    RecordStraight
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭RecordStraight


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    And do you think that they would stand idly by and allow one sector to have wages doubled?
    Your scenario is a recipe for a return to the excesses that crippled a small country.
    So we are seriously looking at interning both the Irish doctors and the ONE THIRD of non-Irish doctors working here to prevent them leaving when we halve their pay? Hospitals as prisons?

    Ludicrous stuff.
    Happyman42 wrote: »
    I am still waiting for your assessment of why Norway(similar pop. size to us) does not have the issues we have.
    Ireland is not Norway.

    Mind you, I'm not the expert on the Norwegian health care system that you are. Can you please give us more evidence that Norwegian doctors work for half the pay that Irish doctors do?


  • #126
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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  • #127
    RecordStraight
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭RecordStraight


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    The point is, the health service needs fixing first...root and branch, then we can talk about what people are paid.
    It will be interesting to see if SF propose this as we approach and election. Varadkar has shown that just like those before him, that he is not up to the job and will continue to paper over the cracks.
    So now you are saying that Sinn Fein's promise to limit PS pay to 100k is NOT actually a promise?

    I can hardly keep up with the spinning here at all.


  • #128
    Crooked Jack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,679 ✭✭✭Crooked Jack


    Godge wrote: »
    They will find themselves reduced to 100k after the first SF budget, because it has been part of SF budgetary policy for the last few years - are you suggesting that SF were making it up or that they don't intend to implement the budgets they promised? It is written in black and white and savings are attributed to it.

    If they only intend to apply the cap to new entrants, it will take years and years to find the savings they have included in their budget. This is the problem that people have with SF's economics. They have included things in their budget that are difficult to impossible to implement and have huge consequences and yet they expect their budgetary proposals to be taken seriously.

    No, im challenging your assertion that people will have to make major lifestyle changes immediately. It's the third time i've explained that but you seem more keen on arguing against things you imagine I've said.


  • #129
    Chips Lovell
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,277 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    I'm assuming Sinn Fein have joined the dots and factored into their budgetary calculations that a lot of the people eligible for their proposed third rate of tax wouldn't be be paying it once they get their salaries cut (assuming they stay in those roles)?


  • #130
    Crooked Jack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,679 ✭✭✭Crooked Jack


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    Oh yeah, and we definitely want a health service like the US. Creepin' Jesus!


  • #131
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    RecordStraight wrote: »
    So we are seriously looking at interning both the Irish doctors and the ONE THIRD of non-Irish doctors working here to prevent them leaving when we halve their pay? Hospitals as prisons?

    Ludicrous stuff.

    Ireland is not Norway.
    What???
    Your hysteria is getting alarming, you may need to calm down here and listen to what doctors themselves are saying about what the problems are. And maybe make an appointment with one! :D
    Mind you, I'm not the expert on the Norwegian health care system that you are. Can you please give us more evidence that Norwegian doctors work for half the pay that Irish doctors do?
    So you don't want to do any research at all, just hyperventilate about something that you have invented???


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  • #132
    RecordStraight
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭RecordStraight


    Crooked Jack wrote: »
    Oh yeah, and we definitely want a health service like the US. Creepin' Jesus!
    Huh? That has literally nothing to do with what he said.

    He merely pointing out that Irish (and foreign) doctors can earn abroad multiples of what Sinn Fein promise to pay them, and to expect them all to sit here on half or a third pay is idiocy of the highest order.


  • #133
    RecordStraight
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭RecordStraight


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    What???
    Your hysteria is getting alarming, you may need to calm down here and listen to what doctors themselves are saying about what the problems are. And maybe make an appointment with one! :D
    You are spinning so fast, I reckon you'll need to see one first! ;)
    Happyman42 wrote: »
    So you don't want to do any research at all, just hyperventilate about something that you have invented???
    You made some claims about the Norwegian medical system. I'm just asking you to provide some evidence that you haven't just made it all up.


  • #134
    Kermit.de.frog
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,464 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    Crooked Jack wrote: »
    No, im challenging your assertion that people will have to make major lifestyle changes immediately. It's the third time i've explained that but you seem more keen on arguing against things you imagine I've said.

    It's about attacking anyone who makes over 100k a year isn't it? Not just doctors, everyone. You may as well be honest about SF's motivation to end entrepreneurialism in this country, to create a clientelist welfare state, end FDI and to cripple the people in the middle as well in the name of equality.

    This is the natural consequence of their proposals.

    That is the agenda. That is what SF stand for. There is no point in denying it or trying to cover it.


  • #135
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #136
    RecordStraight
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭RecordStraight


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.
    Well wait until SF cuts doctors' pay by half. Things will suddenly improve here because [insert reason]


  • #137
    Crooked Jack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,679 ✭✭✭Crooked Jack


    RecordStraight wrote: »
    Huh? That has literally nothing to do with what he said.

    He merely pointing out that Irish (and foreign) doctors can earn abroad multiples of what Sinn Fein promise to pay them, and to expect them all to sit here on half or a third pay is idiocy of the highest order.

    Hold on. Someone brings up US salaries to argue against SF's proposed cap and pointing out that we certainly dont want a health system like the US's has nothing to do with it????
    Cop yourself on


  • #138
    Crooked Jack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,679 ✭✭✭Crooked Jack


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    Yes, like a lot of stuff in the US, im sure it's great if you can afford it


  • #139
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #140
    Banjo String
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,380 ✭✭✭✭Banjo String


    Simple question, is anyone suggesting a cap on earnings via the private sector?

    Is Ireland unique in allowing consultants etc to use public health equipment and facilities to treat patients via the private sector?

    I know if the van driver in my job started using the van in the evenings to moonlight doing nixers with my diesel / insurance, I'd be pretty pissed off.

    But hey, fair dues to them.


  • #141
    Dog of Tears
    Closed Accounts Posts: 812 ✭✭✭Dog of Tears


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Could you show us any evidence you have that they would leave?


    Shinnernomics 101.

    Please show us the evidence that our policies, which if implemented, will wreck the country, will actually wreck the country.

    No thanks - to gather the evidence we'd have to let ye into power and wait a couple of years for the Country to be devastated.

    I'd prefer to just keep the Shinners on the fringes of our society, where they can circle-jerk each other about how wise they are, without actually causing any real damage.


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  • #142
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #143
    Banjo String
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,380 ✭✭✭✭Banjo String


    Dog of Tears wrote: »
    Shinnernomics 101.

    Please show us the evidence that our policies, which if implemented, will wreck the country, will actually wreck the country.

    No thanks - to gather the evidence we'd have to let ye into power and wait a couple of years for the Country to be devastated.

    I'd prefer to just keep the Shinners on the fringes of our society, where they can circle-jerk each other about how wise they are, without actually causing any real damage.


    Probably an ex FF voter ^^


  • #144
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 3,270 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    RecordStraight wrote: »
    Sinn Fein promises to cap public sector salaries at €100,000.



    As we know, consultants in our already very stretched health service earn in excess of 200k per year from their public sector roles. Even many GPs will be earning well over 100k.

    The obvious consequence of the cap will be a mass exodus of doctors and consultants from the Irish health system to other countries where they can earn twice or three times as much, and the impossibility of recruiting qualified people into vacant positions from abroad.

    This will obviously result in the complete collapse of the Irish health system. Presumably the brainy people at the top in Sinn Fein know this and do not care, or else they didn't realise this and are less than competent. Or else they do realise it, but it's just another populist lie that they are trotting out to buy votes. I really don't see another explanation.

    Not making a point about the sinn feinn thing but remember 19+ million was clawed back from same consultants (128 of them) last week. So they're on big money and still dodging tax with it!!! <snip>


  • #145
    Kermit.de.frog
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,464 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    Banjo String wrote: »
    Probably an ex FF voter ^^

    Is that the standard response?

    FF, to my knowledge, never by design went out to create a little Cuba in the north Atlantic.


  • #146
    dr.fuzzenstein
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,575 ✭✭✭✭dr.fuzzenstein


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Your question is...'how will a 'mass exodus' affect the health service?'

    My answer is, there won't be a mass exodus, therefore very little affect.

    How's the weather in cloud cuckoo land?
    If Sf, AAA or any other kind of lefty-loony, pinko nutbags get in, it's time to torch your house and head for any other country in Europe as long as there's still flights and boats operating...


  • #147
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    Dog of Tears wrote: »
    Shinnernomics 101.

    Please show us the evidence that our policies, which if implemented, will wreck the country, will actually wreck the country.

    No thanks - to gather the evidence we'd have to let ye into power and wait a couple of years for the Country to be devastated.

    I'd prefer to just keep the Shinners on the fringes of our society, where they can circle-jerk each other about how wise they are, without actually causing any real damage.

    We have loads of evidence (under your nose) that the current approach is wholly inadequate.
    The health service is devastated already, are you living under a rock?


  • #148
    Crooked Jack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,679 ✭✭✭Crooked Jack


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    I dont want a health service that judges the quality of care you get on your bank balance.


  • #149
    Chips Lovell
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,277 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    Is that the standard response?

    FF, to my knowledge, never by design went out to create a little Cuba in the north Atlantic.

    They were radical enough back in the day. I think SF are seeking to follow the FF template and supplant them, gaining mass appeal by being populist and nationalistic and then reigning it in once they get into power.


  • #150
    Chips Lovell
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,277 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    BTW, paying salaries that will attract the right type of applicants to a role doesn't mean adoption of a privatised healthcare system. It just requires being realistic about the cost of a public one.


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  • #151
    Sierra Oscar
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 8,728 CMod ✭✭✭✭Sierra Oscar


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    What a pleasant future that holds. Pay us x or we will leave, right across the PS. The status quo remains, no solutions there at all.

    So what is your solution? Unilaterally impose massive pay cuts that would undoubtedly damage the health service, and other sections of the public sector too?

    And don't try and claim there would be no impact on the service provided to the patient. The HSE found it impossible to fill posts until some pay cuts were restored to ensure pay somewhat matched the private sector. Many of the choke points in the health service at the moment arose due to staff shortages over the last few years and we are still dealing with the fallout.


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