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Sinn Fein - looming health service disaster?

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Comments

  • #92
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    RecordStraight wrote: »
    Happyman, why would the one third of our doctors who come here from abroad stay here when Sinn Fein halves their salaries?

    (never mind all the Irish doctors who would leave)

    I think this is the fifth time I have asked you. It's ok to admit that many or most would leave.

    Could you show us any evidence you have that they would leave? The positions that couldn't be filled where filled by foreign doctors. Where they recruited at gunpoint for the paltry wages and bad work practices recognised by everybody?


  • #93
    Chips Lovell
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,277 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    It may not require leaving the country. It might just mean finding an alternative in the private sector. Or it could mean returning to your country, family and friends, because it's not worth working here anymore.


  • #94
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    Crooked Jack wrote: »
    Leave my country, family and friends because I now had to make do with a measly 100k a year for doing a job I love???
    Eh no, no I wouldn't.


    If you were earning 200k and had a mortgage, car and other outgoings based on 200k, well you would have little choice but to leave your job if the salary was cut to 100k.


  • #95
    Crooked Jack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,679 ✭✭✭Crooked Jack


    RecordStraight wrote: »
    Happyman, why would the one third of our doctors who come here from abroad stay here when Sinn Fein halves their salaries?

    (never mind all the Irish doctors who would leave)

    I think this is the fifth time I have asked you. It's ok to admit that many or most would leave.

    Depending on which country their coming from, their salary and standard of living is still going to be much higher. Why wouldnt they come here?
    If there is, as you baselessly claim, going to be a mass exodus of doctors (ludicrous suggestion) then why would they go elsewhere where there's going to be huge competition for work rather than come here?
    Of course, this is all waffle. There has been no suggestion whatsoever from doctors that they'd flee the country if forced to scrape by on 100k.
    As i said before, I think most doctors would be insulted if you insinuated they were only in it for the money


  • #96
    RecordStraight
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭RecordStraight


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Could you show us any evidence you have that they would leave? The positions that couldn't be filled where filled by foreign doctors. Where they recruited at gunpoint for the paltry wages and bad work practices recognised by everybody?
    You are asking me to provide evidence that people who come here from abroad to work in Ireland for 200k+ will stay when Sinn Fein cuts their pay to 100k (before tax)?

    Seriously?

    Do you have evidence that they would stay?


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  • #97
    Crooked Jack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,679 ✭✭✭Crooked Jack


    Godge wrote: »
    If you were earning 200k and had a mortgage, car and other outgoings based on 200k, well you would have little choice but to leave your job if the salary was cut to 100k.

    Again, this is like the UI debate, the usual anti-shinners are working off the assumption the SF would get into power on monday and wages would be cut on Tuesday.
    Utterly ridiculous and when people fail to comprehend the workingso f politics at such a basic level it really makes you question the worth of these conversations


  • #98
    Crooked Jack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,679 ✭✭✭Crooked Jack


    RecordStraight wrote: »
    You are asking me to provide evidence that people who come here from abroad to work in Ireland for 200k+ will stay when Sinn Fein cuts their pay to 100k (before tax)?

    Seriously?

    Do you have evidence that they would stay?

    The whole point is that nobody has any evidence because this whole scenario has been dreamed up by the OP


  • #99
    RecordStraight
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭RecordStraight


    Crooked Jack wrote: »
    Depending on which country their coming from, their salary and standard of living is still going to be much higher. Why wouldnt they come here?
    Because they could earn twice as much in the UK, Australia, the US, Canada?
    Crooked Jack wrote: »
    If there is, as you baselessly claim, going to be a mass exodus of doctors (ludicrous suggestion) then why would they go elsewhere where there's going to be huge competition for work rather than come here?
    What? Because they can earn twice as much, perhaps?
    Crooked Jack wrote: »
    Of course, this is all waffle.
    You are right, there's a lot of waffle in your post.
    Crooked Jack wrote: »
    There has been no suggestion whatsoever from doctors that they'd flee the country if forced to scrape by on 100k.
    As i said before, I think most doctors would be insulted if you insinuated they were only in it for the money
    You are ignoring Sierra Oscar's post that showed that 16% of junior consultant posts could not be filled until the government restored previous levels of pay.

    Imagine if pay was halved, as Sinn Fein proposes. What happens to the health service then?


  • #100
    RecordStraight
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭RecordStraight


    Crooked Jack wrote: »
    Again, this is like the UI debate, the usual anti-shinners are working off the assumption the SF would get into power on monday and wages would be cut on Tuesday.
    Utterly ridiculous and when people fail to comprehend the workingso f politics at such a basic level it really makes you question the worth of these conversations
    It's Sinn Fein's stated policy that public sector pay will be capped at 100k, whether you pretend otherwise or not. It's on your website FFS.


  • #101
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Could you show us any evidence you have that they would leave? The positions that couldn't be filled where filled by foreign doctors. Where they recruited at gunpoint for the paltry wages and bad work practices recognised by everybody?
    Crooked Jack wrote: »
    Leave my country, family and friends because I now had to make do with a measly 100k a year for doing a job I love???
    Eh no, no I wouldn't.


    Sf rhetoric is all well and good but the realities of a modern world are very different.

    http://www.who.int/hrh/resources/oecd-who_policy_brief_en.pdf


    "the first motivation for migration is often linked to more and better employment opportunities abroad (encompassing salaries, working conditions, career advancement, etc.). Wage differentials across countries play an important role, but is not the only determinant, as other factors such as the possibility to offer a better and safer future to their children may also be determinant"

    If the report is correct and wage differentials play an important role but are not the only determinant, the good news is that we won't lose all of our doctors, the bad news is that you will be lucky if we manage to keep half of them. I suppose when people start dying more often in hospital, it will cut the waiting lists.


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  • #102
    RecordStraight
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭RecordStraight


    Crooked Jack wrote: »
    The whole point is that nobody has any evidence because this whole scenario has been dreamed up by the OP
    The scenario is outlined on the Sinn Fein website and is their stated policy - doctors' and consultants' pay will be capped at 100k. They can earn more than twice that in the UK, Australia, Canada, the US.

    The real question is, how the hell does our health service survive?


  • #103
    Chips Lovell
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,277 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    While I'd find it highly amusing to watch SF try implement this (and several other hare brained economic policies), I think the suggestion that it's just an election gambit is much more plausible.

    SF do have a pragmatic streak and I reckon the most likely outcome, should they get into power, is that they gradually retreat from the policy by making a series of exceptions for "difficult to fill" roles until you get to a situation not too dissimilar from the current status quo.

    Meanwhile FF and FG will take the opportunity to howl about broken election promises from the opposition benches, which SF will no doubt counter with indignation.


  • #104
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    Crooked Jack wrote: »
    Again, this is like the UI debate, the usual anti-shinners are working off the assumption the SF would get into power on monday and wages would be cut on Tuesday.
    Utterly ridiculous and when people fail to comprehend the workingso f politics at such a basic level it really makes you question the worth of these conversations

    The proposal to cut salaries to 100k was part of their budgetary proposals for the last two years. This means that last October they would have announced they were cuttting salaries to 100k and this January the salaries would have been cut. So two and a half months for people to adjust.

    If SF didn't mean the proposal seriously, then there is just another big hole in their budgetary submission.


  • #105
    RecordStraight
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭RecordStraight


    Godge wrote: »
    If SF didn't mean the proposal seriously, then there is just another big hole in their budgetary submission.
    And a big lie in their election promises.

    Frankly, I hope they are lying. I have a young family and my parents are getting on a bit - I'd rather not see the health service collapse on their watch.


  • #106
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    Godge wrote: »
    If you were earning 200k and had a mortgage, car and other outgoings based on 200k, well you would have little choice but to leave your job if the salary was cut to 100k.

    Ha ha...like that is what happened over the last few years, people who took huge cuts just upped and left PS in a mass exodus. You must have figures for that surely?


  • #107
    Crooked Jack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,679 ✭✭✭Crooked Jack


    RecordStraight wrote: »
    The scenario is outlined on the Sinn Fein website and is their stated policy - doctors' and consultants' pay will be capped at 100k. They can earn more than twice that in the UK, Australia, Canada, the US.

    The real question is, how the hell does our health service survive?

    I said the OP's notion that there would be a mass exodus of doctors is totally dreamed up. Which it is.
    There's nothing wrong with a cap on public sector wages. 100k is a perfectly reasonable wage. The last thing we need is doctors whose sole motivation is greed


  • #108
    RecordStraight
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭RecordStraight


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Ha ha...like that is what happened over the last few years, people who took huge cuts just upped and left PS in a mass exodus. You must have figures for that surely?
    Most workers in the PS don't have the opportunity of doubling their salaries abroad, and one THIRD of the public sector are not foreign people working here who can just as easily move elsewhere if their pay is halved.


  • #109
    Kermit.de.frog
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,465 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    Crooked Jack wrote: »
    I said the OP's notion that there would be a mass exodus of doctors is totally dreamed up. Which it is.
    There's nothing wrong with a cap on public sector wages. 100k is a perfectly reasonable wage. The last thing we need is doctors whose sole motivation is greed


    You don't understand. Capping wages is one thing but then proceeding to thieve 60% of what is left would be quite another. Do you not agree?

    Would you work for a net 40k as a doctor?

    SF's taxation proposition is daft.


  • #110
    Banjo String
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,380 ✭✭✭✭Banjo String


    Cap at 100k but still have earnings (and use of public resources) in the private sector?

    Seems reasonable enough to me.


  • #111
    RecordStraight
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭RecordStraight


    Crooked Jack wrote: »
    I said the OP's notion that there would be a mass exodus of doctors is totally dreamed up. Which it is.
    That's a fact, is it? Because you say so?

    Proof?
    Crooked Jack wrote: »
    There's nothing wrong with a cap on public sector wages. 100k is a perfectly reasonable wage. The last thing we need is doctors whose sole motivation is greed
    There's nothing wrong with a cap, as long as you realise that you won't be able to hire or retain skilled people in an international market. You know, skilled people like doctors and consultants.


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  • #112
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Ha ha...like that is what happened over the last few years, people who took huge cuts just upped and left PS in a mass exodus. You must have figures for that surely?

    Yeah, numbers are 10% down, haven't you noticed?

    Didn't many people criticise the retirement deals that allowed people retire with pensions based on the pre-cut salary?


  • #113
    Crooked Jack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,679 ✭✭✭Crooked Jack


    RecordStraight wrote: »
    It's Sinn Fein's stated policy that public sector pay will be capped at 100k, whether you pretend otherwise or not. It's on your website FFS.

    Again, I was responding to Godge's assertion that people with an outgoing based on a 200k salary (consultants earning 200k and over being very much in the minority by the way) would suddenly find themselves down 100k the day after SF are elected, not,as some people seem to be suggesting, that SF advocate a cap


  • #114
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    Crooked Jack wrote: »
    I said the OP's notion that there would be a mass exodus of doctors is totally dreamed up. Which it is.
    There's nothing wrong with a cap on public sector wages. 100k is a perfectly reasonable wage. The last thing we need is doctors whose sole motivation is greed

    Well I am the only one was able to produce an independent report to back up my view that salary is the key determinant of mobility of doctors but your view is unsupported by any evidence whatsoever.
    Godge wrote: »
    Sf rhetoric is all well and good but the realities of a modern world are very different.

    http://www.who.int/hrh/resources/oecd-who_policy_brief_en.pdf


    "the first motivation for migration is often linked to more and better employment opportunities abroad (encompassing salaries, working conditions, career advancement, etc.). Wage differentials across countries play an important role, but is not the only determinant, as other factors such as the possibility to offer a better and safer future to their children may also be determinant"

    If the report is correct and wage differentials play an important role but are not the only determinant, the good news is that we won't lose all of our doctors, the bad news is that you will be lucky if we manage to keep half of them. I suppose when people start dying more often in hospital, it will cut the waiting lists.


  • #115
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    SO according to 2 doctors on Sean O'Rourke, stress, work practices and long hours are the primary reasons for leaving.


  • #116
    Crooked Jack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,679 ✭✭✭Crooked Jack


    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    You don't understand. Capping wages is one thing but then proceeding to thieve 60% of what is left would be quite another. Do you not agree?

    Would you work for a net 40k as a doctor?

    SF's taxation proposition is daft.

    No, YOU dont understand, SF have clearly said that their wealth tax proposals apply to money made OVER 100k.


  • #117
    Crooked Jack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,679 ✭✭✭Crooked Jack


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    SO according to 2 doctors on Sean O'Rourke, stress, work practices and long hours are the primary reasons for leaving.

    You'd imagine with a cap on wages they could hire more doctors and reduce address those grievances. Hmmmm


  • #118
    RecordStraight
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭RecordStraight


    Crooked Jack wrote: »
    You'd imagine with a cap on wages they could hire more doctors and reduce address those grievances. Hmmmm
    Hire what doctors??

    Do you think Ireland is full of unemployed doctors, waiting to be hired at half the rate they could earn abroad?

    Sinn Fein economics.


  • #119
    Kermit.de.frog
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,465 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    Crooked Jack wrote: »
    No, YOU dont understand, SF have clearly said that their wealth tax proposals apply to money made OVER 100k.

    Not workable. It would have to be over at least 70k or probably lower to raise anything like what they suggest. That is a simple fact, not debatable.


  • #120
    RecordStraight
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭RecordStraight


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    SO according to 2 doctors on Sean O'Rourke, stress, work practices and long hours are the primary reasons for leaving.
    That will get a lot better when they halve doctors' and consultants' wages, won't it?

    I mean, it's not like any of them will leave, increasing the workload on the remaining doctors?


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  • #121
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    RecordStraight wrote: »
    Most workers in the PS don't have the opportunity of doubling their salaries abroad, and one THIRD of the public sector are not foreign people working here who can just as easily move elsewhere if their pay is halved.

    And do you think that they would stand idly by and allow one sector to have wages doubled?
    Your scenario is a recipe for a return to the excesses that crippled a small country.
    I am still waiting for your assessment of why Norway(similar pop. size to us) does not have the issues we have.


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