Sinn Fein - looming health service disaster?

daveyeh

Happyman42 won't answer the question. He has no answers.

Sinn Fein have no intention of being in government next time.

Useless $hitehawks.




$hitehawk;
A useless, going nowhere, idiot that talks crap. See also Gob$hite

RecordStraight

daveyeh wrote: »

Happyman42 won't answer the question. He has no answers.

To be fair to him, at least he has the cojones to post something. The silence from others is deafening, as predicted.

BoJack Horseman

daveyeh wrote: »

Happyman42 won't answer the question. He has no answers.

Sinn Fein have no intention of being in government next time.

Useless $hitehawks.



$hitehawk;
A useless, going nowhere, idiot that talks crap. See also Gob$hite

No intention on governing saves the need to create a policy platform.

Public health in Ireland is underfunded, but when the budgetary situation improves, so will funding.

Other than reducing all staff to a take-home pay of €60k, there seems no plan to actually make things better.

Just as well they have no interest in leading (as they say)

rockatansky

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

People said something similar in the early years of the GDR. Then they built the wall...

Laughable that you would mention the GDR in a thread about Sinn Fein.

There seems to be a large number of threads about Sinn Fein started lately, I'm guessing it's this weekends Ard Fheis coupled with the recent opinion polls that has a certain few all worked up into a tizzy!

Happyman42 is right, the impending 'Mass Exodus' talk is just nonsense hype talk. Reminds me of something that Paisley and his crew would spout during the 60s and 70s about the impending onslaught from Rome.

If, for arguments sake, Sinn Fein do manage to get into power, it will be as part of a coalition government. They would not have an overall majority.

Again in theory the increased taxation for some over a certain pay level would not kick in over night, it would be something that would have to be potentially phased in over a number of budgets having been in government for a few years. They would take the time get their feet comfortable under the table before implementing such Taxation policy. They would then find themselves locked into a bitter battle with Public Sector Unions, the result of which would eventually be either a reduction on the figure mentioned at the start or a total climb down.

In reality Sinn Fein will not be in Government after the 2016 General Election. They are going to do very well in the next GE, but I can't see how any other Party will go into power with them, even Fianna Fail.

RecordStraight

rockatansky wrote: »

Happyman42 is right, the impending 'Mass Exodus' talk is just nonsense hype talk. Reminds me of something that Paisley and his crew would spout during the 60s and 70s about the impending onslaught from Rome.

Can you explain why all the consultants would stay in Ireland - even the foreign ones - once their pay is halved?

rockatansky wrote: »

If, for arguments sake, Sinn Fein do manage to get into power, it will be as part of a coalition government. They would not have an overall majority.

So...? You are counting on another party stopping them doing stupid stuff? Hardly an endorsement.

rockatansky wrote: »

Again in theory the increased taxation for some over a certain pay level would not kick in over night, it would be something that would have to be potentially phased in over a number of budgets having been in government for a few years. They would take the time get their feet comfortable under the table before implementing such Taxation policy. They would then find themselves locked into a bitter battle with Public Sector Unions, the result of which would eventually be either a reduction on the figure mentioned at the start or a total climb down.

Ok, so this a cynical ploy to win votes in your view? Making promises they have no intention of keeping?

And to think of the abuse that Labour get from Sinn Fein for not managing to force through their agenda.

rockatansky

RecordStraight wrote: »

Can you explain why all the consultants would stay in Ireland - even the foreign ones - once their pay is halved?

How will their pay be halved?? You've completely ignored my points as to why this is never going to happen. The very best they could come away with is a large reduction on the 7% figure, may 2 - 3% at best. But again I don't even think there would even be agreement on that.

RecordStraight wrote: »

So...? You are counting on another party stopping them doing stupid stuff? Hardly an endorsement.

The country is fractured Politically for a reason. I wouldn't be counting on another party soley to stop them doing 'stupid stuff' as you refer to. The point I was making that they wouldn't have Carte blanche to do as they please as they wouldn't have an overall majority. A coalition partner would just be another element to fight in such a scenario.

RecordStraight wrote: »

Ok, so this a cynical ploy to win votes in your view?

Welcome to the world of Politics, every Political Party during every General Election, in every country has 'Planned' policies. Once in Government they can turn around and say how things are much different from what they were led to believe. This shouldn't be news to you.

RecordStraight

rockatansky wrote: »

How will their pay be halved?? You've completely ignored my points as to why this is never going to happen. The very best they could come away with is a large reduction on the 7% figure, may 2 - 3% at best. But again I don't even think there would even be agreement on that.

The 100k pay cap that SF are promising, as stated. We are talking about what SF are promising to do in government.

rockatansky wrote: »

The country is fractured Politically for a reason. I wouldn't be counting on another party soley to stop them doing 'stupid stuff' as you refer to. The point I was making that they wouldn't have Carte blanche to do as they please as they wouldn't have an overall majority. A coalition partner would just be another element to fight in such a scenario.

So it's important that SF don't get too many votes, in case they destroy the health service? Ok.

rockatansky wrote: »

Welcome to the world of Politics, every Political Party during every General Election, in every country has 'Planned' policies. Once in Government they can turn around and say how things are much different from what they were led to believe. This shouldn't be news to you.

Right, but Sinn Fein have spent the last 4 years yelling from the rooftops about Labour - the junior coalition partner - breaking promises. Yet you feel that Sinn Fein do not merit criticism for promises that you think they have no intention of implementing?

rockatansky

RecordStraight wrote: »

And to think of the abuse that Labour get from Sinn Fein for not managing to force through their agenda.

Again simple Politics, this is a win win for Sinn Fein. The Labour Party is most likely where they will pick up votes. The fact that they are a junior party in a Coalition Austerity Government makes it much easier to attack them. They smell the blood of the badly wounded Labour Party and they are going in for the Kill! (Metaphorically speaking of course!)

RecordStraight

rockatansky wrote: »

Again simple Politics, this is a win win for Sinn Fein. The Labour Party is most likely where they will pick up votes. The fact that they are a junior party in a Coalition Austerity Government makes it much easier to attack them. They smell the blood of the badly wounded Labour Party and they are going in for the Kill!

Well, I admire your honesty. So your position is that this is just pure cynicism from Sinn Fein, trying to sucker in voters who like the sound of the 100k cap but who don't realise that SF have no intention of actually doing it.

I'm still undecided between this and just sheer stupidity on the part of Pearse Doherty and company.

rockatansky

RecordStraight wrote: »

Well, I admire your honesty. So your position is that this is just pure cynicism from Sinn Fein, trying to sucker in voters who like the sound of the 100k cap but who don't realise that SF have no intention of actually doing it.

I'm still undecided between this and just sheer stupidity on the part of Pearse Doherty and company.

To be honest, I don't even think Sinn Fein need to 'Sucker in' voters. In my opinion the other political parties are pushing voters towards Sinn Fein. The current government made such a mess over both the Local Property Tax and Irish Water that they were always setting themselves up to be rounded on. By setting both of the above so high for everyone from the very beginning they pushed a huge number of people, who were just surviving and putting up the austerity measures, into lower class financially. This lead to a huge mass of people who would not normally have stayed quiet suddenly becoming very vocal. That's were the real sheer stupidity was in my opinion. Fianna Fail, still tainted. Labour, part of this (and also Jobridge). Whos left? Sinn Fein and the Independents.

Timberrrrrrrr

Happyman42 wrote: »

I accept that some people are greedy, will take a subsidised education and then leave. I don't accept that there will be a 'mass exodus' and I have asked what you are basing this on.
Highly skilled and educated workers have taken massive cuts in wages since the downturn...there must be figures out there, kindly do the googling and back up your 'mass exodus' contention. Because I haven't seen and cannot find any evidence of 'mass exodus'.

So by your thinking every person who has emigrated is greedy?

rockatansky

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

So by your thinking every person who has emigrated is greedy?

Talk about putting words into someones mouth.

Iwasfrozen

rockatansky wrote: »

Laughable that you would mention the GDR in a thread about Sinn Fein.

If you look up what people were saying about the brain drain in the early years of the GDR it's remarkably similar to what Happyman is saying. Most people want more than money they want a comfortable balanced life, those who receive their education free from the state and leave are leaving an unpaid debt to society.

If, for arguments sake, Sinn Fein do manage to get into power, it will be as part of a coalition government. They would not have an overall majority.

Agreed, opinion polls are misleading as they don't take transfers into consideration. Transfers historically kill SF.

Again in theory the increased taxation for some over a certain pay level would not kick in over night, it would be something that would have to be potentially phased in over a number of budgets having been in government for a few years. They would take the time get their feet comfortable under the table before implementing such Taxation policy. They would then find themselves locked into a bitter battle with Public Sector Unions, the result of which would eventually be either a reduction on the figure mentioned at the start or a total climb down.

In reality Sinn Fein will not be in Government after the 2016 General Election. They are going to do very well in the next GE, but I can't see how any other Party will go into power with them, even Fianna Fail.

Agree 100% they will see a large increase in number of seats and they will be a major party, maybe leading opposition, but they won't be in government as they have no chance of getting enough to be a senior coalition party.

Timberrrrrrrr

rockatansky wrote: »

Talk about putting words into someones mouth.

How many emigrants have had a subsidised education and then left to find better paid work elsewhere? Or is only "Da rich lads" who are greedy?

Happyman42

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

So by your thinking every person who has emigrated is greedy?

Anybody who leaves based solely on the amount of money they can earn (which is why the OP is saying there will be a shock horror 'mass exodus') is by definition 'greedy'. Not everybody is, and there are a myriad of other considerations taken into account.
The biggest complaint I hear from public service doctors is the amount of hours they have to work and the quallity of their lives. I also seem to remember James O'Reilly promising to double the amount of doctors in the public service in his pre-coming to power election promises to alleviate that problem. How did that go? :rolleyes:

RecordStraight

Happyman42 wrote: »

Anybody who leaves based solely on the amount of money they can earn (which is why the OP is saying there will be a shock horror 'mass exodus') is by definition 'greedy'. Not everybody is, and there are a myriad of other considerations taken into account.
The biggest complaint I hear from public service doctors is the amount of hours they have to work and the quallity of their lives. I also seem to remember James O'Reilly promising to double the amount of doctors in the public service in his pre-coming to power election promises to alleviate that problem. How did that go? :rolleyes:

I don't recall O'Reilly saying that. Can you provide any proof?

Also, whatever about increased numbers of Irish doctors leaving, you are ignoring the one third of doctors in Ireland who came here from abroad, presumably for the money. How many of them will stick around when Sinn Fein halve their salaries?

Sierra Oscar

Happyman42 wrote: »

Could you show any evidence to back your statement that there would be a 'mass exodus'. Where exactly are you getting this from?

There is already precedent for this happening.

The HSE cut the pay for junior consultants and found it impossible to fill posts to such an extent that it had to reverse the cuts thereafter.

Journal.ie (May 2013) - HSE struggles to recruit consultants and junior doctors

THE HEALTH SERVICE EXECUTIVE was forced to re-advertise almost a fifth of its consultant vacancies last year – while at the same time struggling to find applicants for junior doctor posts in the south-east region.

Irish Times (July 2014) - Hospital consultants to be offered 24% pay rise

In October 2012 the then minister for health James Reilly reduced pay for newly appointed consultants by 30 per cent, a move medical organisations claimed led to a brain drain among doctors and left the health service unable to fill a number of key medical posts.

SF's loony policies would extend the problem not only within our health service, but also across our public sector as a whole.

General practice across the country is already in crisis as the HSE are unable to fill GP posts as current GP's retire. It is a growing crisis, but don't expect it to hit the papers for a few months yet. What SF are proposing is reckless and irresponsible, but you can be sure it will be their first broken promise when in power.

Happyman42

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

There is already precedent for this happening.

The HSE cut the pay for junior consultants and found it impossible to fill posts to such an extent that it had to reverse the cuts thereafter.

Journal.ie (May 2013) - HSE struggles to recruit consultants and junior doctors



Irish Times (July 2014) - Hospital consultants to be offered 24% pay rise ]/QUOTE]


Would you call 19 positions out of 116 a 'mass' or 'some'? And it seems to me they where all filled.



The core problem is that we don't produce enough doctors.

RecordStraight

Happyman42 wrote: »

Would you call 19 positions out of 116 a 'mass' or 'some'? And it seems to me they where all filled.

A circa 20% cut in pay resulted in them not being able to fill 16% of positions. What happens when rates are cut by 50% or thereabouts under SF proposals?

Happyman42 wrote: »

The core problem is that we don't produce enough doctors.

That's a whole other debate, but it has nothing to do with what Sinn Fein proposes to do. In fact, we will undoubtedly produce less if Sinn Fein cuts the career prospects of those who do slog through medicine.

What happens when Sinn Fein slash consultants' pay by half or so? When the foreign doctors move to somewhere that pays them what they are worth? When we can't attract any more foreign doctors due to our sub-market pay rates?

"I don't think they will leave" is a lovely sentiment, but it's not very realistic and I don't think you are persuading anyone.

Happyman42

RecordStraight wrote: »

A circa 20% cut in pay resulted in them not being able to fill 16% of positions. What happens when rates are cut by 50% or thereabouts under SF proposals?

Where are you getting that they where not able to fill the positions? They said they would be able to by organising recruitment drives. The posts can be filled if they spread the net wide enough, which supports the point that we are not producing enough doctors.

That's a whole other debate, but it has nothing to do with what Sinn Fein proposes to do. In fact, we will undoubtedly produce less if Sinn Fein cuts the career prospects of those who do slog through medicine.

What happens when Sinn Fein slash consultants' pay by half or so? When the foreign doctors move to somewhere that pays them what they are worth?

Where is this place...our public sector wages are highly envied in most places, look at what doctors who 'slog' just as hard in Norway (similar pop size) are paid. Funnily enough it is around the 100,000 mark.

"I don't think they will leave" is a lovely sentiment, but it's not very realistic and I don't think you are persuading anyone.

And you have shown absolutely nothing (16 out 119 posts which where eventually filled) that shows there will be 'mass exodus'.

RecordStraight

Happyman42 wrote: »

Where are you getting that they where not able to fill the positions? They said they would be able to by organising recruitment drives.

If you read Sierra Oscar's post, or mine, you will have noticed that they were only able to fill the posts after increasing pay by 24%.

Happyman42 wrote: »

And you have shown absolutely nothing (16 out 119 posts which where eventually filled) that shows there will be 'mass exodus'.

16% of unfilled posts were filled when they increased pay by 24%.

So lower pay = can't fill the posts. Come on man, this really isn't rocket science.

Can you explain why you think the third of our doctors who come from abroad will stick around when their pay is slashed?

Timberrrrrrrr

Happyman42 wrote: »

Where are you getting that they where not able to fill the positions? They said they would be able to by organising recruitment drives. The posts can be filled if they spread the net wide enough, which supports the point that we are not producing enough doctors.
Where is this place...our public sector wages are highly envied in most places, look at what doctors who 'slog' just as hard in Norway (similar pop size) are paid. Funnily enough it is around the 100,000 mark.


And you have shown absolutely nothing (16 out 119 posts which where eventually filled) that shows there will be 'mass exodus'.

So you would be happy if a large % of doctors and consultants were from Foreign countries?

RecordStraight

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

So you would be happy if a large % of doctors and consultants were from Foreign countries?

I'm wondering why he thinks the doctors would come here anyway when they would earn two or three times more in the UK, Australia, Canada etc. etc.

frankbrett

RecordStraight wrote: »

I'm wondering why he thinks the doctors would come here anyway when they would earn two or three times more in the UK, Australia, Canada etc. etc.

Must be our stock of affordable housing, childcare facilities,efficient urban transport network, low cost of living, great weather, streamlined efficient health service.

I suppose the golf courses are pretty good though

Kermit.de.frog

Happyman42 wrote: »

Anybody who leaves based solely on the amount of money they can earn (which is why the OP is saying there will be a shock horror 'mass exodus') is by definition 'greedy'.

Or maybe they just don't want to be screwed with tax. As for being greedy. Get in the real world ffs.

If i'm offered a job 100k paying much less tax abroad i'm gone not only because of the amount of money but the attitude of any country that would do that (implement such a tax policy like SF propose) in the first place is not somewhere i'd want to live.

It's nasty and begrudging.

This is SF all over. They want to attack anyone with money.

Those people will not stay. Executives of multinationals will not come here for example and thus won't employ here.

The fact is the SF wealth tax proposals would empty this country of anyone earning over 60k.

Chips Lovell

The answer to this is simple. All SF have to do is to legislate to ban doctors from leaving the country and ban public sector workers who have their pay cut from moving to the private sector.

Banjoxed

Happyman42 wrote: »

Some will and some won't. Again I ask you, where are you getting 'mass exodus' from.
When you back this up with something credible, perhaps we can have a reasoned debate.

I used to be a bit concerned about a Sinn Fein Goverment, that it would be an act of economic vandalism and unleash a wave of cultural intolerance, making DeValera's isolationism look refreshing in comparison.

Now I will welcome our coming overlords, as it will be hilarious to see what excuses Ireland's Internet warriors will make when things come to pass, and they will do what they will say they will do.

WheatenBriar

Jep Gambardella wrote: »

The answer to this is simple. All SF have to do is to legislate to ban doctors from leaving the country and ban public sector workers who have their pay cut from moving to the private sector.

I smell the sarcasm lol Internment for doctors
However,in case anyone seriously expects a law like that,we'd have to leave the EU before it could be implemented

Chips Lovell

Sure that would be a bonus.

Happyman42

I'll ask again. Can anybody show us where a 'mass exodus has collapsed a service in this country before. Or where you are getting this hysteria from.

Yes, some will leave there is no doubt of that, many leave already after receiving their education even with a pay scale that is the envy of many other countries, this is not a new problem. Some do it from greed others do it to gain experience and some do it to get away from the restrictive practices and the crazy workloads. The lack of doctors is not a new problem.
The health service is the problem, most would not come back even if the salary was half a million...therefore the salary isn't the key problem.
Varadkar capitulated the easy way rather than fix or even begin to address the key problems in a creaking service. There is nothing new in that as successive ministers have shown.