Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread IV

irishbucsfan · 18-02-2015 04:22PM

total former wrote: »

The problem there is that if we give it until the World Cup and it hasn't blossomed, we're in trouble because we're in a World Cup without a functional midfield.

I presume Joe sees something that we don't and that's fine, but on the match day evidence so far, it's not clicking in attack at least.

I have a question here: What do people mean by it "not clicking?"

I think personally we really haven't tried anything at all in attack so far. Against France we were kicking on 2nd and 3rd phase under no pressure in their half at times. I don't think that's all we have in our locker at all, Joe is obviously an exceptionally talented architect of incisive attacking play, yet we haven't tried anything in that department really. I feel like I agree with what a lot of people are concluding with Payne, but I wonder if in this case it's worth leaving things until we're playing more aggressively.

I think we're going to have to go through more phases against England if Brown is playing anyway, so it's just another reason why I can't wait for that game. It may well be the best matchup on paper the sport will see this side of the RWC.

Brewster · 18-02-2015 04:22PM

phog wrote: »

Off the top of my head I've no idea but what relevance is that to how I think Payne has played at centre for either Ireland or Ulster?

FWIW, I'm not dissing Payne I just think we've better options.

Jared Payne has played far more high intensity games for Ulster over past two seasons than Earls has for Munster. Payne is physically better suited to the defensive demands of modern day rugby, is it in any way a realistic prospect to start Earls at 13 for England? For me no....

awec · 18-02-2015 04:23PM

awec doesn't like Payne at 13.

irishbucsfan · 18-02-2015 04:25PM

Brewster wrote: »

Jared Payne has played far more high intensity games for Ulster over past two seasons than Earls has for Munster. Payne is physically better suited to the defensive demands of modern day rugby, is it in any way a realistic prospect to start Earls at 13 for England? For me no....

I would take Earls' defense over Payne's every day of the week. He's brilliant in defense, look at him against England for Ireland in 2012.

He's not going to be in contention for the England game though.

Brewster · 18-02-2015 04:33PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I would take Earls' defense over Payne's every day of the week. He's brilliant in defense, look at him against England for Ireland in 2012.

He's not going to be in contention for the England game though.

Game has changed even since 2012.. I just cannot fathom how one could say Earls is a better defender than Payne?? Bastareaud would have bounced off him. Earls from an attacking sense is a completely different argument, but not defensively!

bilston · 18-02-2015 04:37PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I noticed that against France in a big way

When exactly? When did he get a run in that game that we could use to draw that conclusion?

I'm not saying you're wrong as he is 31 now so it's very possible but I'm not sure how you could have noticed that against France.

bilston · 18-02-2015 04:41PM

awec wrote: »

awec doesn't like Payne at 13.

You have to feel a bit sorry for him though. Usually a player has his own provincial fans to back him but Payne doesn't even have that luxury. Our midfield allegedly isn't firing and for some reason a lot of people are quick to point the finger at Payne and not Henshaw.

18-02-2015 04:50PM

bilston wrote: »

You have to feel a bit sorry for him though. Usually a player has his own provincial fans to back him but Payne doesn't even have that luxury. Our midfield allegedly isn't firing and for some reason a lot of people are quick to point the finger at Payne and not Henshaw.

Possibly because Henshaw has been ****ing excellent in both games.

Payne had two very good games too imo. Jury's still out though.

irishbucsfan · 18-02-2015 05:02PM

Brewster wrote: »

Game has changed even since 2012.. I just cannot fathom how one could say Earls is a better defender than Payne?? Bastareaud would have bounced off him. Earls from an attacking sense is a completely different argument, but not defensively!

It really hasn't changed since 2012. Why are people suddenly jumping on this physicality bandwagon?! There's very little evidence behind it.

He lined up against Tuilagi and Rougerie in 2012. Both are seriously destructive carriers. Rougerie steamrolled D'Arcy remember, hard running has not been invented in 2014/15. Earls is very very strong in defense, it's one of the best parts of his game.

Edit: His defense was a weakness before, he gave away a soft try in 2010 v France and was rightly called up on it. But like most areas he's criticised in he worked very hard and improved massively there.

ionadnapóca · 18-02-2015 05:07PM

bilston wrote: »

You have to feel a bit sorry for him though. Usually a player has his own provincial fans to back him but Payne doesn't even have that luxury. Our midfield allegedly isn't firing and for some reason a lot of people are quick to point the finger at Payne and not Henshaw.

I hear what your saying re Henshaw. there hasn't ben much link up in attack between the centres. its combination of; new partnership, conservative game plan, new positions for both. it will be interesting to see how Henshaws link play develops along with a slightly more expansive game plan.
One thing to note: we haven't seen Ireland having to chase a game post BOD. Lets hope its not put to the test v England.

rrpc · 18-02-2015 05:10PM

ionadnapokot wrote: »

I hear what your saying re Henshaw. there hasn't ben much link up in attack between the centres. its combination of; new partnership, conservative game plan, new positions for both. it will be interesting to see how Henshaws link play develops along with a slightly more expansive game plan.
One thing to note: we haven't seen Ireland having to chase a game post BOD. Lets hope its not put to the test v England.

You need to also take into account that he's been playing with two different out-halves so far. Next game will be with Sexton again (hopefully) so it should be a bit more settled.

mfceiling · 18-02-2015 06:17PM

wittycynic wrote: »

I think Payne's selection has quite a bit to do with the 2" inches in height he has on Fitzgerald and the 4" in height he has on Earls, given our reliance on a kick and field game. That he is half a stone heavier than both of them doesn't hurt either.

And the fact that he is predominately a full back.

Wang King · 18-02-2015 06:46PM

mfceiling wrote: »

And the fact that he is predominately a full back.

So is Kearney.... Wouldn't put him anywhere near 13 though

Tox56 · 18-02-2015 06:55PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Possibly because Henshaw has been ****ing excellent in both games.

Payne had two very good games too imo. Jury's still out though.

Yes I don't think Payne's been bad at all and with gametime with sexton he'll get better, but Henshaw has absolutely nailed himself into the midfield, it's Henshaw-AN Other now. I'm not totally convinced Payne is the best option, Fitzgerald has been similarly impressive in defence but has brought creativity at 13 Payne generally hasn't, but it looks like we're going to the World Cup with him so we just have to sit and wait to hope it works

mfceiling · 18-02-2015 06:56PM

Wang King wrote: »

So is Kearney.... Wouldn't put him anywhere near 13 though

My point exactly!!

BoardsMember · 18-02-2015 07:19PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I have a question here: What do people mean by it "not clicking?"

I think personally we really haven't tried anything at all in attack so far. Against France we were kicking on 2nd and 3rd phase under no pressure in their half at times. I don't think that's all we have in our locker at all, Joe is obviously an exceptionally talented architect of incisive attacking play, yet we haven't tried anything in that department really. I feel like I agree with what a lot of people are concluding with Payne, but I wonder if in this case it's worth leaving things until we're playing more aggressively.

I think we're going to have to go through more phases against England if Brown is playing anyway, so it's just another reason why I can't wait for that game. It may well be the best matchup on paper the sport will see this side of the RWC.

For me it means that in attack we haven't created line breaks, or made space with intelligent running lines, or generally looked anything but pretty readable in the centre.

There are lots of reasons for it, but its a bit of a stretch to say that its because we haven't tried anything, and assuming that we have plenty in our locker should we choose to try it. Is it not more likely that we dont have it in our locker and that we are playing as we are because of this?

I hope I am wrong, I just worry that this might be nearly as good as it gets from an attacking perspective with this pair in midfield.

18-02-2015 07:48PM

Been done to death but I'd definitely like to see Fitz get a shot at 13 and fear that because we'll be sticking with these 2 for the six nations (barring an unlikely calamity), we'll be stuck with them for the world cup too. I realise that back lines need to click to a certain extent but its been a long time since I've seen any team looking this predictable and ineffective in midfield (in attack).

18-02-2015 08:25PM

Strange how this center partnership seemed to come about by chance of Darcy being injured in the run up to the SA match

stephen_n · 18-02-2015 08:26PM

It's a tough audience that's for sure, Payne has played very well defensively, hasn't made any errors or butchered any opportunities in attack, has pretty much done all that's asked of him as a 13, within the gameplan we seem to be playing and yet is getting flack and pressure to prove himself.

Mahatma Geansai · 18-02-2015 08:27PM

AdamD wrote: »

Been done to death but I'd definitely like to see Fitz get a shot at 13 and fear that because we'll be sticking with these 2 for the six nations (barring an unlikely calamity), we'll be stuck with them for the world cup too. I realise that back lines need to click to a certain extent but its been a long time since I've seen any team looking this predictable and ineffective in midfield (in attack).

Its largely down to tactics. We aren't trying to play rugby, so there is little to be seen from our attack. Whether this tactic is due to our centre partnership, or whether Joe thinks this conservative brand of rugby is our key to winning games, remains to be seen.

sydthebeat · 18-02-2015 08:31PM

stephen_n wrote: »

It's a tough audience that's for sure, Payne has played very well defensively, hasn't made any errors or butchered any opportunities in attack, has pretty much done all that's asked of him as a 13, within the gameplan we seem to be playing and yet is getting flack and pressure to prove himself.

its gas.... just goes to show how skewed perspective and 'crowd opinion' can be

In the 2 opening games henshaw has carried for 54 meters
Payne has carried for 87 meters

of our centres, he has been the most threatening with ball in hand... yet hes the one whos supposed to have done less in attack...

the mind boggles sometimes...

sydthebeat · 18-02-2015 08:37PM

also, people go on about our 'kicking game'

rob kearney, our FB, has kicked the ball a total of 3 times in the 2 games !!!!

compare that to leigh 1/2p who has kicked it 8 times ......

but no, we get lambasted for having a dull kicking game :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Tox56 · 18-02-2015 08:41PM

sydthebeat wrote: »

its gas.... just goes to show how skewed perspective and 'crowd opinion' can be

In the 2 opening games henshaw has carried for 54 meters
Payne has carried for 87 meters

of our centres, he has been the most threatening with ball in hand... yet hes the one whos supposed to have done less in attack...

the mind boggles sometimes...

In fairness Henshaw carries in much, much bigger traffic than Payne does. He's done that job very well, running 54 metres in two games doing that job is pretty fantastic actually

total former · 18-02-2015 08:43PM

sydthebeat wrote: »

its gas.... just goes to show how skewed perspective and 'crowd opinion' can be

In the 2 opening games henshaw has carried for 54 meters
Payne has carried for 87 meters

of our centres, he has been the most threatening with ball in hand... yet hes the one whos supposed to have done less in attack...

the mind boggles sometimes...

Payne has done well. Henshaw has done well. Defensively they've been solid. My issue is that "Payne and Henshaw" has not done much of note in attack.

Yes it's a new partnership but so is the England midfield, we've seen a lot more spark from them. Scotland too, Bennett and Dunbar look very lively for a brand new partnership.

Again, I'm sure Joe knows what he's doing and they will improve, I don't think bringing D'Arcy, Earls or Fitzgerald in would necessarily be an immediate improvement but it does need to improve.

wittycynic · 18-02-2015 08:50PM

sydthebeat wrote: »

also, people go on about our 'kicking game'

rob kearney, our FB, has kicked the ball a total of 3 times in the 2 games !!!!

compare that to leigh 1/2p who has kicked it 8 times ......

but no, we get lambasted for having a dull kicking game :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Well, perhaps the kicking thing has been overplayed, but we've been poor in attack and so people are searching for reasons as to why that is.

I wouldn't change our style for the world though. If we try to start flinging the ball around we will lose as plenty of teams are better staffed than us to play that sort of game.

The last thing we should be doing is trying to generate pressure for the tactics to change in any way, shape, or form. Joe has done brilliantly so far and long may it continue.

Hagz · 18-02-2015 08:52PM

Don't Dunbar and Bennett play alongside one another for Glasgow though? Along with Finn Russell?

England's centre partnership has looked lively, but then again Jonathan Joseph is an electric player. Really looking forward to that match-up.

total former · 18-02-2015 08:54PM

Hagz wrote: »

Don't Dunbar and Bennett play alongside one another for Glasgow though? Along with Finn Russell?

England's centre partnership has looked lively, but then again Jonathan Joseph is an electric player. Really looking forward to that match-up.

Yeah fair point re Scotland but they've fitted pretty well into Cotter's team.

phog · 18-02-2015 09:01PM

stephen_n wrote: »

It's a tough audience that's for sure, Payne has played very well defensively, hasn't made any errors or butchered any opportunities in attack, has pretty much done all that's asked of him as a 13, within the gameplan we seem to be playing and yet is getting flack and pressure to prove himself.

If you look at Payne playing at 13 in just the two 6Ns in isolation then yes you may have a point but most of us have seen him play 13 for Ulster too and based on that I'd prefer to see Henshaw, Earls or Fitz there for Ireland.

SaveOurLyric · 18-02-2015 09:10PM

sydthebeat wrote: »

In the 2 opening games henshaw has carried for 54 meters. Payne has carried for 87 meters of our centres, he has been the most threatening with ball in hand... yet hes the one whos supposed to have done less in attack...

These numbers are meaningless. Neither has attacked, ball in hand, to gain yards, so comparing them tells us nothing about how they have played. Or as much as comparing which of them has thrown better into the lineout.
For the same reason, the possible merits of playing Fitz, Earls or others in place of one of them as advocated by many here, has no relevance to the Schmidt game plan. Defence-beating through the 3/4ers, other than after multiple plays and overlaps or mismatches present themselves and swinging it wide for a try is almost a formality, is not the strategy.

errlloyd · 18-02-2015 09:13PM

The backline has never really looked like it's trying to make a "second pass", unless that pass is back to Sexton on the loop. That's what makes it boring. Henshaw and Payne might run lines that create space for each other, but they aren't actually trying to move the ball between them.

Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread IV

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