Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread IV

Volvic12 · 18-02-2015 01:21PM

rrpc wrote: »

I'm not so sure of their centres. Burrell has missed a couple of tackles each game and has nowhere near the number of tackles that Henshaw has made. I think one of the tackles he missed led directly to a try by Morisi. Joseph has also missed a couple and has a tendency to shoot up in defence.

As for Nowell, well he's a really good attacking option, but am I mistaken in saying that he had problems under the high ball last year?

Agree on Burrell - he is decent but I would have Henshaw all day long. Burrell is totally out of form also. He will not be there come the world cup if everyone fit. Farrell or Tuilagi will be 12.

Nowell did struggle a bit last year but it was his debut season in Six Nations so is understandable. Having seen a bit of him for Exeter, he is quite assured in that department.

aimee1 · 18-02-2015 01:22PM

BoardsMember wrote: »

Looks like Nowell might be coming in to replace May for England. That's a pity, May was their weakest back, or possibly the weakest player in the 15 that would have been expected to be fielded against us. Very concerned about this now. Front row they have the edge on us, possibly the same in back row depending on how we play the game, centres you'd have to say they have the edge too. I'd very much back our half backs over theirs, and maybe we just pip them in the back three assuming May gone and Browne recovers, but that's a tight call. If there are lots of scrums I think we're in trouble.

Why such negativity???

England have major weaknesses too. They are far from the all singing all dancng team they are made out to be.

ionadnapóca · 18-02-2015 01:32PM

Clearlier wrote: »

While it is the nature of the beast that people tend to remember the glaring errors and outstanding attacks I don't think that it's fair to suggest that opinions don't change. How many people would believe me if I told them that BOD was a poor defender when he first arrived on the scene? What about Fitz - in his first year he wasn't much better than a revolving door. A few more might remember that d'Arcy was the original non-tackling fullback for his first couple of years with Leinster but not that many. A recent example of opinion changing is in respect of Zebo. A year ago, he was the cause celebre that many of us were wary of because although his potential was obvious his contributions to a game were very narrow. He's far from the finished article now but it's been very pleasing to see the change in his game over the past year. He's really been getting stuck into all aspects of the game and now looks like the kind of guy who if his game continues to develop could win 100+ caps. I'm pretty sure that I'm not the only one who has changed their opinion on the presence of Zebo in the side since last year.

On Earls, the reason that many of us are concerned about him at 13 is that he consistently showed an inability to think well under pressure. He would make a number of fairly basic errors that his physical gifts would bail him out of for Munster but weren't sufficient at international level. I'd be a bit interested to see how he went under Schmidt for Ireland because I think that Schmidt requires a much more detailed preparation which leads to a smaller cognitive load in a game which might just suit Earls.

In the end though I think that Schmidt decided on his centre pairing for the world cup over the summer. He knows that these partnerships take time to gel. I imagine that he picked his 2 based on size, injury profile and potential (not necessarily in that order). Fitz, Earls, Marshall and Olding have poor injury records over the last few years and would require gambling on their availability. It makes more sense to invest in a partnership that can have an extended run. I'll be astonished if we see any serious experimenting with alternatives. The partnership is a work in progress and although I thought I could see some signs of improvement in attack against France there's still huge scope for further improvement and I think that they'll be given the space to make those improvements.

I do also believe that players can develop into better defenders playing in certain positions and with good coaching.
I defo don't agree with your assessment of BOD and D'Arcy in their early days.
Bod was a decent tackler but not great when he arrived "on the scene". He was however a very good defender and rarely got caught out of position. D'Arcy could hit harder than Bod in those days. Especially at schools. He was a non kicking FB back then, not a non tackling one. At Leinster he was predominately a winger, played very few games at FB, and rarely put in a bad defensive shift. It wasn't until Gary Ella arrived at Leinster in 2003, when he was moved to centre, did he really blossom.
But both were exceptional "natural" footballers who read the game well.
At this stage of their careers im not sure Earls, Fitzgerald or Zebo will ever develop into the world class defensive operators that the lads were.
Worried about Marshall (injuries) and don't know enough about him to comment. Olding looks like a diamond, but again would not now enough about him to comment on his defensive positioning.
Henshaw and Payne are clearly the best defensive paring we have. Payne was a sight to behold on Sat.
Interesting to see if there will be a bit more creativity from the pair the more they play together.

BoardsMember · 18-02-2015 01:37PM

aimee1 wrote: »

Why such negativity???

England have major weaknesses too. They are far from the all singing all dancng team they are made out to be.

Protecting myself against extreme disappointment!!

Re another post, Nowell is good udner the high ball, that's why they are talking about bringing him in.

Removing May from the backline removes lots of missed tackles!!

Hopefully our centres can get something going in attack this time round, maybe even a line break. I agree the partnership looks defensively sound, but that is only one half of the expectation!

Clearlier · 18-02-2015 01:56PM

ionadnapokot wrote: »

I do also believe that players can develop into better defenders playing in certain positions and with good coaching.
I defo don't agree with your assessment of BOD and D'Arcy in their early days.
Bod was a decent tackler but not great when he arrived "on the scene". He was however a very good defender and rarely got caught out of position. D'Arcy could hit harder than Bod in those days. Especially at schools. He was a non kicking FB back then, not a non tackling one. At Leinster he was predominately a winger, played very few games at FB, and rarely put in a bad defensive shift. It wasn't until Gary Ella arrived at Leinster in 2003, when he was moved to centre, did he really blossom.

When he first arrived BOD was a reasonable tackler when in position but whose defensive positioning was suspect. He worked very hard on it and redefined the role of the 13 in defence but for this first year or two of his professional career there were relatively straightforward opportunities to be exploited if you were attacking his space. That he went on to do what he did as a defender says everything you need to know about him.

If you were watching d'Arcy in the early days then I'm genuinely surprised that you don't how poor he was in defence. He had magical feet in attack, IIRC his first ever touch of the ball in a Leinster shirt saw him turn the then Welsh international winger Wayne Proctor inside out to win an away game for Leinster. He continued to show that in attack, nobody but nobody was able to tackle him one on one and his ability to get out of tight spots was sometimes Houdini like. In defence though he was a total liability, he waved players through all the time. Think Garbajosa on Lomu in the world cup and you're not far off. It was a large part of the reason that he got dropped and he really only started to sort himself out following the talking to he got from Matt Williams. He started to look like a proper athlete (he had a lot of puppy fat when he first played for Leinster) and he really knuckled down to working on all aspects of his game. His defence improved and he turned into a very solid provincial level winger with occasional calls for his inclusion at international level again. As you mentioned though it was only when Ella gave him a run at 13 when BOD was injured that he turned into an overnight success. If BOD hadn't been around I think that he would have played outside centre much more often. He was good at inside centre but IMO even better at outside centre just not in BOD's class.

BTW - part of the problem defensively those days was that the Leinster academy was barely in it's embryonic stages and the step up in physicality that both d'Arcy and BOD made which was essentially from schools to provincial and international level was massive with only a little bit in the AIL in between.

bilston · 18-02-2015 02:02PM

I wouldn't want to scud the pair of them but in the three games that Payne and Henshaw have played together (SA, Italy and France) has there even been a hint of a line break against our midfield?

rrpc · 18-02-2015 02:03PM

BoardsMember wrote: »

Removing May from the backline removes lots of missed tackles!!

Strangely enough, according to the stats, May has only missed one tackle so far.

The biggest offender for England has been Dave Attwood with 6 missed out of 21 followed by George Kruis with 5 out of 24 and then Burrell and Twelvetrees with 4 out of 17 and 16 respectively.

Clearlier · 18-02-2015 02:05PM

rrpc wrote: »

Strangely enough, according to the stats, May has only missed one tackle so far.

The biggest offender for England has been Dave Attwood with 6 missed out of 21 followed by George Kruis with 5 out of 24 and then Burrell and Twelvetrees with 4 out of 17 and 16 respectively.

I wonder if his mistake against Wales would count as a missed tackle though? He still made a tackle, he just made it on the wrong person. Add in the messing up of an overlap that he did against Italy and I'm not surprised that there's talk of him being dropped.

BoardsMember · 18-02-2015 02:14PM

Clearlier wrote: »

I wonder if his mistake against Wales would count as a missed tackle though? He still made a tackle, he just made it on the wrong person. Add in the messing up of an overlap that he did against Italy and I'm not surprised that there's talk of him being dropped.

Agreed, stats dont always tell the full truth. May is not a good defender, stats showing him missing few tackles does not change that fact.

BoardsMember · 18-02-2015 02:21PM

bilston wrote: »

I wouldn't want to scud the pair of them but in the three games that Payne and Henshaw have played together (SA, Italy and France) has there even been a hint of a line break against our midfield?

I thought you were going to ask about line breaks by our midfield!!

None in the last two matches, one of which was against Italy. We should certainly be aspiring to improve in attack, even if it is early days in the partnership. Quite apart from them being not used to playing together, and Henshaw unused to Sexton inside him, they are also playing in positions they do not usually occupy for their provinces. So it cant be easy, but that's the pairing he's backing so hopefully it will click sooner rather than later.

Podge_irl · 18-02-2015 02:22PM

Doesn't count as a missed tackle if you're so wildly out of position you don't get near the guy!

Brewster · 18-02-2015 02:56PM

Surprised at the lack of support for Jared on here. The guy is a phenomenal player and will prove his doubters wrong!! (Much like Trimble did!). We can argue all day long about his best position, but he is too good a player not to have in an Irish 15. He is simply a more complete player than Earls or Fitz and if I had hours of free time I'd love to debate why! I do feel there is an element of Leinster fans pushing Fitz, Munster fans pushing Earlsie to a degree, both fine players and Ulster fans pushing Cave !! I'd have none of them in team ahead of Payne! He is suited to the physical, defence orientated modern international game. I've no doubt some people are down on him because of the lack of line breaks, but none of our back line have made a line break in the championship so far! Earls doing it pro12 level just doesn't count.... In Joe I most certainly trust. Kearney, Bowe, Payne, Henshaw, Trimble is Ireland's best equipped back line to play modern day international rugby...

Hagz · 18-02-2015 02:59PM

I wouldn't mind seeing someone else given a shot at 13 just to expand our options, but I agree that Payne is by far and away the best 13 available.

thomond2006 · 18-02-2015 03:03PM

I wouldn't say Payne's performances so far for Ireland have shown that he is by far and away the best 13 available.

18-02-2015 03:05PM

thomond2006 wrote: »

I wouldn't say Payne's performances so far for Ireland nor Ulster have shown that he is by far and away the best 13 available.

.

Brewster · 18-02-2015 03:09PM

Some patience has to be shown here folks, the guy has had 3 caps. It could well be the World Cup before we see the partnership blossom from an attacking sense, and if it is then so be it. Sexton has a huge role here too, he has played no rugby with either of them....

wittycynic · 18-02-2015 03:11PM

I think Payne's selection has quite a bit to do with the 2" inches in height he has on Fitzgerald and the 4" in height he has on Earls, given our reliance on a kick and field game. That he is half a stone heavier than both of them doesn't hurt either.

phog · 18-02-2015 03:15PM

Hagz wrote: »

I wouldn't mind seeing someone else given a shot at 13 just to expand our options, but I agree that Payne is by far and away the best 13 available.

I'd rate Henshaw, Fitz and Earls ahead of him but Henshaw is needed at 12 and the other two ran out of time to convince Joe to try them there.

Brewster · 18-02-2015 03:17PM

phog wrote: »

I'd rate Henshaw, Fitz and Earls ahead of him but Henshaw is needed at 12 and the other two ran out of time to convince Joe to try them there.

Phog, when was the last time that Earls played a game that came even close to intensity of Saturday last?!

ionadnapóca · 18-02-2015 03:18PM

Clearlier wrote: »

When he first arrived BOD was a reasonable tackler when in position but whose defensive positioning was suspect. He worked very hard on it and redefined the role of the 13 in defence but for this first year or two of his professional career there were relatively straightforward opportunities to be exploited if you were attacking his space. That he went on to do what he did as a defender says everything you need to know about him.

If you were watching d'Arcy in the early days then I'm genuinely surprised that you don't how poor he was in defence. He had magical feet in attack, IIRC his first ever touch of the ball in a Leinster shirt saw him turn the then Welsh international winger Wayne Proctor inside out to win an away game for Leinster. He continued to show that in attack, nobody but nobody was able to tackle him one on one and his ability to get out of tight spots was sometimes Houdini like. In defence though he was a total liability, he waved players through all the time. Think Garbajosa on Lomu in the world cup and you're not far off. It was a large part of the reason that he got dropped and he really only started to sort himself out following the talking to he got from Matt Williams. He started to look like a proper athlete (he had a lot of puppy fat when he first played for Leinster) and he really knuckled down to working on all aspects of his game. His defence improved and he turned into a very solid provincial level winger with occasional calls for his inclusion at international level again. As you mentioned though it was only when Ella gave him a run at 13 when BOD was injured that he turned into an overnight success. If BOD hadn't been around I think that he would have played outside centre much more often. He was good at inside centre but IMO even better at outside centre just not in BOD's class.

BTW - part of the problem defensively those days was that the Leinster academy was barely in it's embryonic stages and the step up in physicality that both d'Arcy and BOD made which was essentially from schools to provincial and international level was massive with only a little bit in the AIL in between.

yea fair enough on D'Arcy, he didn't have a great time of it for a while. Ruddock & Williams got his Dorce Orse in gear. but he did have defensive pedigree. And im sorry but cant agree on BoD!
im not sure your comparison of 2 defensive liginds with Earls (27 regularly injured), Fitz (27 & we know the rest) and Zebo (24/25 and only finding his defensive mojo) will mean that they will also improve exponentially.
Henshaw clearly has the pedigree to become something bigger (in attack. and defense!) I hope Olding does too.

molloyjh · 18-02-2015 03:23PM

Podge_irl wrote: »

Doesn't count as a missed tackle if you're so wildly out of position you don't get near the guy!

This.

Hagz wrote: »

I wouldn't mind seeing someone else given a shot at 13 just to expand our options, but I agree that Payne is by far and away the best 13 available.

I'm not convinced by this. Payne has hardly put a foot wrong, but in terms of attacking threat he's not added a huge amount either. That could be how Joe is playing it, but personally I'd like to see someone with a bit more to their attacking game given a run out.

That said it still is early days for the two lads so we almost certainly haven't seen them at their best yet. It's not something I'm foaming at the mouth over or anything so if Joe continues to select them I'm not going to worry too much. As long as Jones isn't in the 23 jersey. I just don't see the logic in that at all and I think not having a real impact off the bench came close to haunting us on Saturday. He may be in good form but he doesn't offer enough IMO to be the outside back replacement.

phog · 18-02-2015 03:27PM

Brewster wrote: »

Phog, when was the last time that Earls played a game that came even close to intensity of Saturday last?!

Off the top of my head I've no idea but what relevance is that to how I think Payne has played at centre for either Ireland or Ulster?

FWIW, I'm not dissing Payne I just think we've better options.

typhoony · 18-02-2015 03:30PM

he's still a smart operator but i get the impression watching Tommy Bowe that he has lost a yard of pace recently

.ak · 18-02-2015 03:32PM

typhoony wrote: »

he's still a smart operator but i get the impression watching Tommy Bowe that he has lost a yard of pace recently

He's had a tight groin recently so that may be effecting him.

typhoony · 18-02-2015 03:35PM

.ak wrote: »

He's had a tight groin recently so that may be effecting him.

i noticed he wasn't involved in the training this morning

phog · 18-02-2015 03:49PM

typhoony wrote: »

i noticed he wasn't involved in the training this morning

Yes, RTE said something like himself and Earls time was being managed and that Earls was released being back to Munster for gametime

18-02-2015 04:10PM

typhoony wrote: »

he's still a smart operator but i get the impression watching Tommy Bowe that he has lost a yard of pace recently

I noticed that against France in a big way

total former · 18-02-2015 04:13PM

Brewster wrote: »

Some patience has to be shown here folks, the guy has had 3 caps. It could well be the World Cup before we see the partnership blossom from an attacking sense, and if it is then so be it. Sexton has a huge role here too, he has played no rugby with either of them....

The problem there is that if we give it until the World Cup and it hasn't blossomed, we're in trouble because we're in a World Cup without a functional midfield.

I presume Joe sees something that we don't and that's fine, but on the match day evidence so far, it's not clicking in attack at least.

Clearlier · 18-02-2015 04:16PM

ionadnapokot wrote: »

yea fair enough on D'Arcy, he didn't have a great time of it for a while. Ruddock & Williams got his Dorce Orse in gear. but he did have defensive pedigree. And im sorry but cant agree on BoD!
im not sure your comparison of 2 defensive liginds with Earls (27 regularly injured), Fitz (27 & we know the rest) and Zebo (24/25 and only finding his defensive mojo) will mean that they will also improve exponentially.
Henshaw clearly has the pedigree to become something bigger (in attack. and defense!) I hope Olding does too.

I know, it's sacrilege isn't it! I just happened to be 2 years ahead of him, also played at 13 (much, much lower level obviously), also went to UCD and went to all of Leinster's home games from 1997 to c.2003. At the time Ireland's two best centres were Maggs and Henderson neither of whom were renowned for their passing skills. When I heard of a centre that could pass I started watching out for him. IMO his defensive skills while never as poor as D'arcy weren't very good initially but I understand that I'd probably be in a decided minority in that respect.

I wasn't trying to suggest that Zebo, Fitz, Earls and Olding will improve at the same rate (although Fitz's defence has IMO) and reach the same heights as BOD and D'arcy. I was just pointing out to a previous poster that an initial reputation can be overcome (I'd probably agree that BOD never had a bad rep as a defender even if I do think that he was a poor defender initially).

Clearlier · 18-02-2015 04:18PM

total former wrote: »

The problem there is that if we give it until the World Cup and it hasn't blossomed, we're in trouble because we're in a World Cup without a functional midfield.

I presume Joe sees something that we don't and that's fine, but on the match day evidence so far, it's not clicking in attack at least.

Henshaw is offering go forward ball and a strong decoy because of that. Payne still seems to me to think like a fullback in the lines that he runs but they're only three games into the partnership and I think that there are some positive signs that it will come good in attack as well as defence.

Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread IV

Comments