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‘People think I’m the devil for having an abortion, but it’s the only option that&

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  • #692
    Philo Beddoe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 560 ✭✭✭Philo Beddoe


    DuffmanGuy wrote: »
    The papers all make it clear that fertilisation is the defining event for new life, not at all subjective or arbitrary. If you're a scientist, and this is "your area", this defining event is irrefutable.

    As regards a zygote being a 'Living' human being. To question whether a zygote is 'Living' or not is not even debatable. Are you suggesting that dead tissue grows, process energy, develops and creates new cells, combines and expresses DNA?
    Can you show me the peer reviewed study that supports what Human Ova are not living?

    If human ova are living then life does not begin at fertilisation.


  • #693
    pq0n1ct4ve8zf5
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,070 ✭✭✭✭pq0n1ct4ve8zf5


    Fair play to this woman. We live in a country where the _more moderate_ members of the pro-life lobby would (grudgingly) extend access to abortion to rape victims and women with an FFA pregnancy. But they'd rather these women suffer than run the risk that treating them with that basic glimmer of empathy and trust would "open the floodgates" for every hoor whose knickers are only being kept on by the 8th Amendment.

    So much of public discussion around abortion in Ireland is about being worthy of accessing one. How did you get pregnant? Were you using contraception? Were you raped? Are you suicidal? Hang on there now for a couple of months til we have that verified by the professionals, good girl. Are in a relationship or were you sleeping around? Because that's very important in determining whether or not this foetus has more worth than you. Every discussion on abortion I've ever seen here has been as much about judging women's sex lives as nit-picking over when life begins.

    In such a context it is very brave to show your face and say "I was pregnant and I didn't want to be, so I got an abortion, the end". I really hope her decision wasn't naive though, she is going to get some amount of shít over this and I hope she and her partner are prepared.


  • #694
    Shrap
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,163 ✭✭✭Shrap


    Well said electro b1tch. Well said.


  • #695
    mikom
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,391 ✭✭✭✭mikom


    Mass must be on.


  • #696
    eviltwin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    Christian Substantial Wharf wrote: »
    Fair play to this woman. We live in a country where the _more moderate_ members of the pro-life lobby would (grudgingly) extend access to abortion to rape victims and women with an FFA pregnancy. But they'd rather these women suffer than run the risk that treating them with that basic glimmer of empathy and trust would "open the floodgates" for every hoor whose knickers are only being kept on by the 8th Amendment.

    So much of public discussion around abortion in Ireland is about being worthy of accessing one. How did you get pregnant? Were you using contraception? Were you raped? Are you suicidal? Hang on there now for a couple of months til we have that verified by the professionals, good girl. Are in a relationship or were you sleeping around? Because that's very important in determining whether or not this foetus has more worth than you. Every discussion on abortion I've ever seen here has been as much about judging women's sex lives as nit-picking over when life begins.

    In such a context it is very brave to show your face and say "I was pregnant and I didn't want to be, so I got an abortion, the end". I really hope her decision wasn't naive though, she is going to get some amount of shít over this and I hope she and her partner are prepared.

    I think it will be a storm in a teacup. I've always found the most people couldn't really give a sh*t what you do with your life, some people judge and judge harshly but most are too busy getting through their day to really care about yours. The ones who judge tend to be the types who judge everyone anyway, its abortion today, tomorrow it will be the gays or the dole scroungers.


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  • #697
    darced
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,056 ✭✭✭darced


    This post has been deleted.


  • #698
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,524 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    eviltwin wrote: »
    I think it will be a storm in a teacup. I've always found the most people couldn't really give a sh*t what you do with your life, some people judge and judge harshly but most are too busy getting through their day to really care about yours. The ones who judge tend to be the types who judge everyone anyway, its abortion today, tomorrow it will be the gays or the dole scroungers.


    Printing this out and hanging it on the wall in my office so it's the first thing people see before they open their mouths. Might cause them to think twice at least about how they want to say something if they still feel it must be said.

    Their respect for, and reluctance to judge other people though would say a lot more than their words ever could.


  • #699
    bodice ripper
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,681 ✭✭✭bodice ripper


    darced wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.


    we are talking about someone who was posting articles from a Catholic think tank and saying "fact".


  • #700
    mikom
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,391 ✭✭✭✭mikom


    darced wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    My comment was pointed at absent posters, not all persons.
    Check out the "studies" posted.


  • #701
    Gbear
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,775 ✭✭✭✭Gbear


    Christian Substantial Wharf wrote: »
    So much of public discussion around abortion in Ireland is about being worthy of accessing one. How did you get pregnant? Were you using contraception? Were you raped? Are you suicidal? Hang on there now for a couple of months til we have that verified by the professionals, good girl. Are in a relationship or were you sleeping around? Because that's very important in determining whether or not this foetus has more worth than you. Every discussion on abortion I've ever seen here has been as much about judging women's sex lives as nit-picking over when life begins.

    At the same time I do seem to see a lot of pro-choice people making bad arguments. They're presenting cases where rape was involved and portraying those who would oppose an abortion in such a situation as evidence of monstrosity when it's entirely consistent with the desire to protect what is seen as the life of a baby.

    It's a pretty clear cut distinction that has to be made IMO. Is the foetus you're terminating in possession of the right to life?

    I don't think there can be any humming and hawing about that or shades of acceptability of their justifications for elective abortions (ie, not including FFA or risk of serious injury or death to the mother by carrying to term - they should be dealt with as any other medical procedure is, with the health of the patient being at the forefront of the doctor's concerns).

    So, from a legal perspective, the cut off for an elective abortion should reflect whether the foetus is "just a bundle of cells" and the reasons why the woman wants the abortion shouldn't be relevant any more than it should be for any other elective procedure.

    "Because she wants one" is perfectly valid if what you're terminating has no right to life and "because she was raped" is not at all valid if the foetus does have a right to life.

    If you can't agree on that principle then you just have people talking past each other and debating is largely pointless. Slinging around insults about people being baby-murderers or anti-women widely misses the mark.


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  • #702
    B0jangles
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,950 ✭✭✭B0jangles


    This is a pretty good opinion piece on the dangers of trying to force sciencists to identify a dividing line between human/not human when talking about development from conception:

    http://livinglifewithoutanet.com/2009/03/17/a-fertilized-egg-is-not-a-human-being/


  • #703
    sunshine and showers
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,027 ✭✭✭sunshine and showers


    I agree with Gbear that FFA and risks to the life of the mother should be treated as separate medical issues to abortion.

    The problem with saying that you're for abortion for rape victims and rape victims alone is that it would be almost impossible for that person to prove that they were raped within the time period an abortion can take place. Court cases take months and months to happen. Statistics show that rapists rarely get reported, let alone convicted. It would be impossible to put in place a system for these abortions, because the father of the baby (the alleged rapist) has the right to be innocent until proven guilty. And in this country, you'd probably have to prove that a rape occurred in order to be entitled to an abortion because of it (judging by the standards in the Protection of Life During Pregnancy Act). Letting a separate panel of people determine if you were raped before you got an abortion could interfere with the judicial process of the alleged perpetrator's right to a fair trial, because there'd be a conclusion drawn about them before the trial happened.

    The way I see it, you're either pro-legalising abortion on demand, or you're pro leaving things as they are and pretending thousands of women don't go to England every year. Keeping abortion illegal in Ireland does not stop Irish women from having abortions. It does not stop Irish women from importing illegal abortifacients that are potentially very harmful to their health. It does not stop dangerous "back alley" abortions among women who cannot afford to travel to England. Basically, the eighth amendment has not stopped what it was designed to stop. It's time we accepted that.

    So remove it. Make abortion legal and safe in Ireland for Irish women. If you're morally against abortion, I honestly think you could just refrain from having an abortion and leave other people and their business alone.


  • #704
    Morag
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,427 ✭✭✭Morag


    end of the road wrote: »
    oh yes it is . i'd rather that then the irish tax payer having to fork out for free abortions. if you want to have an abortion, thats your choice. but you should pay for it. nobody is "forced" to do anything



    its not. unless the tax payer has no part in it what so ever

    Actually covering abortion under the maternity health care scheme makes sense
    as every other medical visit or procedure related to maternity is covered.
    Which is not actually 'free' it is paid for by taxes.


  • #705
    Morag
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,427 ✭✭✭Morag


    sunshine and showers wrote: »
    I agree with Gbear that FFA and risks to the life of the mother should be treated as separate medical issues to abortion.


    You mean as health care, I agree they should be health care and not have criminal law invovled same with risk to the health of the woman.

    sunshine and showers wrote: »
    The way I see it, you're either pro-legalising abortion on demand, or you're pro leaving things as they are and pretending thousands of women don't go to England every year. Keeping abortion illegal in Ireland does not stop Irish women from having abortions. It does not stop Irish women from importing illegal abortifacients that are potentially very harmful to their health. It does not stop dangerous "back alley" abortions among women who cannot afford to travel to England. Basically, the eighth amendment has not stopped what it was designed to stop. It's time we accepted that.

    Actually the two types of pills which make up the abortion pills are legal here.
    1 it only perscibed and dispensed in hospitals, the other is prescribed and dispensed from chemists all over the country for a range of things with the warning may cause misscarriage on it.

    The abortion pills ordered form womenhelp or womenonweb are the exact same make and doseage used by clinics in the UK to end a pregnancy up to 10 weeks and have been used in france from 1988 and are very safe to use.
    sunshine and showers wrote: »
    So remove it. Make abortion legal and safe in Ireland for Irish women. If you're morally against abortion, I honestly think you could just refrain from having an abortion and leave other people and their business alone.

    well said.


  • #706
    sunshine and showers
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,027 ✭✭✭sunshine and showers


    Morag wrote: »
    You mean as health care, I agree they should be health care and not have criminal law invovled same with risk to the health of the woman.

    Yes, I did mean that.

    Morag wrote: »
    Actually the two types of pills which make up the abortion pills are legal here.
    1 it only perscibed and dispensed in hospitals, the other is prescribed and dispensed from chemists all over the country for a range of things with the warning may cause misscarriage on it.

    The abortion pills ordered form womenhelp or womenonweb are the exact same make and doseage used by clinics in the UK to end a pregnancy up to 10 weeks and have been used in france from 1988 and are very safe to use.

    I was more talking about the women who order from dodgy sellers in random parts of the internet. And the fact that they're taken without medical supervision.


  • #707
    pq0n1ct4ve8zf5
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,070 ✭✭✭✭pq0n1ct4ve8zf5


    Gbear wrote: »
    At the same time I do seem to see a lot of pro-choice people making bad arguments. They're presenting cases where rape was involved and portraying those who would oppose an abortion in such a situation as evidence of monstrosity when it's entirely consistent with the desire to protect what is seen as the life of a baby.

    It's a pretty clear cut distinction that has to be made IMO. Is the foetus you're terminating in possession of the right to life?


    I don't think there can be any humming and hawing about that or shades of acceptability of their justifications for elective abortions (ie, not including FFA or risk of serious injury or death to the mother by carrying to term - they should be dealt with as any other medical procedure is, with the health of the patient being at the forefront of the doctor's concerns).

    So, from a legal perspective, the cut off for an elective abortion should reflect whether the foetus is "just a bundle of cells" and the reasons why the woman wants the abortion shouldn't be relevant any more than it should be for any other elective procedure.

    "Because she wants one" is perfectly valid if what you're terminating has no right to life and "because she was raped" is not at all valid if the foetus does have a right to life.

    If you can't agree on that principle then you just have people talking past each other and debating is largely pointless. Slinging around insults about people being baby-murderers or anti-women widely misses the mark.

    I agree actually, I don't think that the balance of rights between a foetus and a woman is affected by the circumstances of conception. And I don't think that everyone who is opposed to abortion is anti-woman or religious, a great many decent people have a sincerely held personal belief that abortion is wrong.

    The remarkably strict stance the state takes on abortion in this country however, means that a lot of debate centres on who deserves one. Terminations in the case of FFA should be seen as a medical procedure, but it's made into a moral one. Plenty examples in this thread of people being against "lifestyle abortions", which as well as being an insultingly flippant and reductive description definitely implies that people think how a woman fell pregnant and what the wider circumstances of her life are, are important determining factors in whether or not she's right or wrong to get an abortion, rather than just the inherent sanctity (or otherwise) of the human life she's carrying. I wouldn't say this makes people woman-haters, but it suggests to me that attitudes around sexual morality and women's sexual behaviour in particular are influencing people's views.


  • #708
    Zippie84
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,648 ✭✭✭Zippie84


    kidneyfan wrote: »
    Are you a psychiatrist?
    Mad people don't know what is best for their mental health.

    fact that you're referring to 'mad people' says how little you know about mental health.


  • #709
    Zippie84
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,648 ✭✭✭Zippie84


    Off topic, but forgot how good the Irish accent is. No longer live in Ireland and don't hear it enough.


  • #710
    Yamanoto
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,489 ✭✭✭Yamanoto


    Tara featuring on a BBC Three Doc now.


  • #711
    Zippie84
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,648 ✭✭✭Zippie84


    Yamanoto wrote: »
    Tara featuring on a BBC Three Doc now.

    yep it's the documentary we've all been discussing a per the original post on this thread...


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  • #712
    Zippie84
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,648 ✭✭✭Zippie84


    Oh God, I'd feel so uncomfortable and intimidated walking in there with the women and their rosary beads outside, even if they're not saying anything....


  • #713
    SEPT 23 1989
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,039 ✭✭✭✭SEPT 23 1989


    Is a road trip a good enough excuse for an abortion?


  • #714
    Kiwi in IE
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,063 ✭✭✭Kiwi in IE


    SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »
    Is a road trip a good enough excuse for an abortion?

    Why does she require an 'excuse' and who should be the judge of whether or not she has a good enough 'excuse' to exercise control over her own body according to her wishes?


  • #715
    gandalf
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,458 ✭✭✭✭gandalf


    Now that woman Tara is extremely brave. She is the only person who should choose what happens to her own body, no one else.


  • #716
    Zippie84
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,648 ✭✭✭Zippie84


    You tell them, Blondie!


  • #717
    RDM_83 again
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,116 ✭✭✭RDM_83 again


    Kiwi in IE wrote: »
    Why does she require an 'excuse' and who should be the judge of whether or not she has a good enough 'excuse' to exercise control over her own body according to her wishes?

    Thats arguable depending on your stance but its definitely not a good enough excuse to complain about the cost of the procedure.

    edit: though this thread has reached the stage of "say something pro-choice- collect thanks" :-/


  • #718
    Zippie84
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,648 ✭✭✭Zippie84


    RDM_83 again wrote: »
    Thats arguable depending on your stance but its definitely not a good enough excuse to complain about the cost of the procedure.

    that wasn't her excuse for complaining about the cost of the procedure.


  • #719
    Eutow
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,197 ✭✭✭Eutow


    SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »
    Is a road trip a good enough excuse for an abortion?


    Doesn't matter what the reason is. What would be a good enough reason for you? What if she wanted to study medicine and felt a pregnancy would interupt it? What if she wanted to study art? What if she was raped? What if there is a medical reason? It should always be up to the person carrying the foetus.


  • #720
    Ave Sodalis
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,555 ✭✭✭Ave Sodalis


    RDM_83 again wrote: »

    edit: though this thread has reached the stage of "say something pro-choice- collect thanks" :-/

    Why do people always bring this up in threads? If someone says something worth thanks, I thank it. If they don't, I don't. Why is it people always get so "ohh it's all about the thanks" when it's just a case that one side has more thankable posts than the other...


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  • #721
    RobertKK
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,771 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    sup_dude wrote: »
    Why do people always bring this up in threads? If someone says something worth thanks, I thank it. If they don't, I don't. Why is it people always get so "ohh it's all about the thanks" when it's just a case that one side has more thankable posts than the other...

    I posted the following in the Stephen Fry thread, one could change atheists and theists for pro-choice and pro-life:

    Atheists, theists and anyone in between... I mean do they think what they post or say really changes anyone to their viewpoint?
    It is usually people on either side just thanking people who share their point of view rather than someone thanking to say 'yeah, that was a convincing argument'.

    So if one continues arguing a point, it makes the person irrational as they are just going round in circles arguing the same thing.


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