Hen Harrier and land-designation conflict

Capercaille · 02-02-2015 4:39pm

OpenYourEyes wrote: »

Press Release from the Department of Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht:

http://www.ahg.gov.ie/en/PressReleases/2015/February2015Pressreleases/htmltext,18392,en.html

No response from the Minister.:mad:

Zoo4m8 · 02-02-2015 7:08pm

OpenYourEyes wrote: »

Zoo4m8 - you've ignored everything else I said, especially the thing I repeated over and over again - this incident tells us nothing about the average farmer or the average guy with a gun license. Like with anything theres a spectrum of different types of people - some are excellent, some are terrible, most are fairly alright - that goes for conservationists, teachers, doctors, Gardai, telephone operators - everyone!

I didn't ignore any other possibility - I just played the numbers game, and the odds are that was the type of person who did this.
I've said it repeatedly in this thread and in others - farmers and conservationists are on the same side here. And feel free to go through my posting history, I have absolutely nothing against anyone with guns.

I'm not going to apologise when you selectively cherry-pick a few words from a long and thorough post.

Right, for the record I have a licence but I do NOT hunt.. Believe you me I have not ignored everything you said, I decided to stop after picking one comment in case I posted something I would be embarrassed about later.
Allow me to continue to cherrypick, "was shot because she was a Hen Harrier" "there was no mistake in ID" you say you are playing the numbers game and then present these comments as facts? How can you know these things for certain? To me even a moronic neanthertal farmer would realise that to shoot a controversial bird and then leave it to be found would not advance his cause one iota .
You most certainly , in recent times, infer that farmers and conservationists are singing from the same hymn sheet but posting comments like these could lead one to feel that you are just paying lip service.
You as a regular poster have IMO a responsibility to your wider readers, for instance Michael Viney published a nasty comment some years ago " CAP in hand farmers leaning on there gates" in one stroke dismissing the farming community as lazy, money grabbing slackers and unsurprisingly there is a large section, as I have found over the years, who wholeheartly subscribe to this nonsense and I feel that it is important not to feed this innate prejudice .
I hasten to add after all this that I am not dismissing the chance that a farmer is responsible, I'm just trying to make the point that it is important for a number of reasons not to jump to conclusions or to publish items that further divisions.
Oh yes, why on earth would you think that I would want or seek an apology , you have you views, I have mine, end of......

OpenYourEyes · 02-02-2015 7:28pm

Zoo4m8 wrote: »

Allow me to continue to cherrypick, "was shot because she was a Hen Harrier" "there was no mistake in ID" you say you are playing the numbers game and then present these comments as facts? How can you know these things for certain? To me even a moronic neanthertal farmer would realise that to shoot a controversial bird and then leave it to be found would not advance his cause one iota .
.

A Hen Harrier looks and behaves nothing like any legal quarry or any vermin species that can be legally controlled. In addition, a Hen Harrier looks and behaves nothing like any other bird in Ireland! When you add to that the fact that it was shot in a place where the issue of Hen Harrier SPA designation has been very contentious in recent weeks and years, and the fact that the area is a blacspot for raptor persecution, then maximum parsimony and occams razor tell you that the Hen Harrier was purposefully shot. Not one organisation is suggesting otherwise. We don't know exactly what happened, but there's little point in discussing the minute possibilities when all available evidence points to one scenario.

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You most certainly , in recent times, infer that farmers and conservationists are singing from the same hymn sheet but posting comments like these could lead one to feel that you are just paying lip service..

Comments like " It's important to not lose sight of the fact that the breed of lunatic who did this isn't representative of all Kerry people, isn't representative of all farmers and isn't representative of all shooters or people who carry a gun license." ? And I have a history of simialar comments, not to mention of espousing the importance and necessity of farmers and hunters in conservation? Do I need to get a picture on the front of the IFJ with me hugging a farmer for you to believe me?

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You as a regular poster have IMO a responsibility to your wider readers.

I feel the same -and I'd be doing everyone a disservice if I dismissed the far-most-likely scenario in favour of the ones you've proposed. I think you'll find that my comments have been very well balanced and as informed as possible in the past, and that I have no problem either backing down or apologising when I'm in the wrong.

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.....for instance Michael Viney published a nasty comment some years ago " CAP in hand farmers leaning on there gates" in one stroke dismissing the farming community as lazy, money grabbing slackers and unsurprisingly there is a large section, as I have found over the years, who wholeheartly subscribe to this nonsense and I feel that it is important not to feed this innate prejudice ..

There's enough info about me in my posts for you to know that I'm not Michael Viney. In addition, like I said I have a history of espousing the importance of farmers and hunters in conservation, and the importance of compensating and paying them to do it. just look in this thread! I have never taken the view of MV in that comment, so you have absolutely no reason to associate me with such a viewpoint. Those who dismiss farmers like that have a very poor knowledge of conservation and I regularly correct them here and on other social media.

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I hasten to add after all this that I am not dismissing the chance that a farmer is responsible, I'm just trying to make the point that it is important for a number of reasons not to jump to conclusions or to publish items that further divisions.
.

It's important to weigh up all the evidence available, and it's important to direct feelings of unhappiness towards the individual but not the community. If we were to stop ourselves discussing issues like this based on all available evidence and logic, and hold out until someone is found guilty, then we'd never be able to talk about wildlife persecution in Ireland and we'd get nowhere in trying to stop it. For at least the third time in this post, the thousandth time in this thread, and the millionth time on boards.ie, the guy who did this isn't representative of his community, he is statistically an outlier - doing something that the majority of those in his community wouldn't do.

You are taking this very personally, there is no reason for you to take it personally. The person who did it is probably an Irish man - I'm an Irish man and I don't take it personally. I just hope and advocate that he is brought to justice so that he stops tarnishing the name of Irish men. Same logic applies for people from Kerry, people with shotguns, and people who own and/or farm land.

Zoo4m8 · 02-02-2015 8:26pm

You see for me the problem is that your take on the matter is fact, that's it , that's how it happened there is no possibility that it happened any other way..
I am most definatly not asking you to dismiss your theory in favour of mine, I'm suggesting that a lot of the time things are not as they seem..
I would not have the cheek to compare are you to Mr Viney and rereading my post I can see how this impression could be construed.. I mentioned his comment only to illustrate a mindset quite prevelant in the wider community.
Why would you think I take this personally? Because I'm the only person in this thread to post views that at times conflict with yours? You are preaching to the converted in the most part in this forum with lots of support from the regulars, I just happen to think that from time to time an alternate view is healthy...

OpenYourEyes · 02-02-2015 8:45pm

Zoo4m8 wrote: »

You see for me the problem is that your take on the matter is fact, that's it , that's how it happened there is no possibility that it happened any other way..
I am most definatly not asking you to dismiss your theory in favour of mine, I'm suggesting that a lot of the time things are not as they seem..
I would not have the cheek to compare are you to Mr Viney and rereading my post I can see how this impression could be construed.. I mentioned his comment only to illustrate a mindset quite prevelant in the wider community.
Why would you think I take this personally? Because I'm the only person in this thread to post views that at times conflict with yours? You are preaching to the converted in the most part in this forum with lots of support from the regulars, I just happen to think that from time to time an alternate view is healthy...

It's everybodies take on the matter!! Would you care to propose a more likely explanation, based on all of the available evidence? Should we not discussa nd analyse and look forward from a persecution indicent like this unless theres been a successful prosecution first? I've repeatedly said that it's not the only explanation, but that it is the most likely one. But you seem to ignore things I repeatedly say!

I fully accept that the general public have a dismissive attitude towards farmers with regards conservation. I have a degree from the Dept of Agriculture in UCD, and am very much aware that policy makers are the problem with regards biodiversity declines on farmland. Again, my posting history reinforces that that is what I firmly believe - that conservation in ireland is heavily reliant on traditional farming and land-management and in order to reasonably expect farmers to carry this out we have to ensure that its financially viable for them to do so. I have said this for the past 3 years i on boards.ie and will continue to say it.

Your posts indicate that you're taking this personally - you've said you held back from saying something in the moment that you might later regret, and have highlighted that you are a farmer with a shotgun license - indicating that its a point of contention.

I'm not 'preaching to the converted' - this is a discussion forum and plenty of people are contributing - often I agree with a large part of what they say but may disagree with some finer points - and I'm sure the same goes for the things I post. There's nothing wrong with that, it helps us all get a well-rounded view of the issues and different perspectives. An alternative view is perfectly fine, and can certainly be healthy, but you have not given me any reason to think that what I said above is not the most likely explanation, but rather have given me reason to think that you are taking things personally despite me having gone to great lengths to highlight the individuality of this action and that policy makers and politicans be the ones to target to prevent this happening again.

In essence - if all of the available info points to one thing, then it is perfectly reasonable to discuss an issue in terms of that being the likely course of events. As new info comes to light, we should all analyse that and possibly change our viewpoint depending on what we have learned. We should not forget that we don't actually know who did this, but we shouldn't bury our heads in the sand either.

OpenYourEyes · 02-02-2015 8:59pm

Dr. Barry O'Donoghue talking on Radio Kerry:

http://media.radiokerry.ie/mediamanager/embed/player/#podcasts/9/item/34912
(you might have to click the pane on the right, rather than just letting it play when you open it)

Apparently the shooting took place at the roost and the other Harriers from that roost are missing too - indicating it was definitely a targeted act, and obviously with the loss of other birds seeming likely, it just gets worse and worse!

Woodville56 · 02-02-2015 9:07pm

Just been listening to same podcast - if the other harriers are missing it's way to coincidental for comfort and adds much more weight to the theory of a deliberate act of exterminating these birds !

Uriel. · 02-02-2015 9:19pm

OpenYourEyes wrote: »

Dr. Barry O'Donoghue talking on Radio Kerry:

http://media.radiokerry.ie/mediamanager/embed/player/#podcasts/9/item/34912
(you might have to click the pane on the right, rather than just letting it play when you open it)

Apparently the shooting took place at the roost and the other Harriers from that roost are missing too - indicating it was definitely a targeted act, and obviously with the loss of other birds seeming likely, it just gets worse and worse!

terrible, terrible stuff.

Something really needs to be done, a serious concerted efforts from all groupings (farmers organisations, State, ENGOs, etc.) to promote the HH rather than vilify it. Serious efforts needed from all to change perception etc.

Zoo4m8 · 02-02-2015 9:46pm

OpenYourEyes wrote: »

It's everybodies take on the matter!! Would you care to propose a more likely explanation, based on all of the available evidence? Should we not discussa nd analyse and look forward from a persecution indicent like this unless theres been a successful prosecution first? I've repeatedly said that it's not the only explanation, but that it is the most likely one. But you seem to ignore things I repeatedly say!

I fully accept that the general public have a dismissive attitude towards farmers with regards conservation. I have a degree from the Dept of Agriculture in UCD, and am very much aware that policy makers are the problem with regards biodiversity declines on farmland. Again, my posting history reinforces that that is what I firmly believe - that conservation in ireland is heavily reliant on traditional farming and land-management and in order to reasonably expect farmers to carry this out we have to ensure that its financially viable for them to do so. I have said this for the past 3 years i on boards.ie and will continue to say it.

Your posts indicate that you're taking this personally - you've said you held back from saying something in the moment that you might later regret, and have highlighted that you are a farmer with a shotgun license - indicating that its a point of contention.

I'm not 'preaching to the converted' - this is a discussion forum and plenty of people are contributing - often I agree with a large part of what they say but may disagree with some finer points - and I'm sure the same goes for the things I post. There's nothing wrong with that, it helps us all get a well-rounded view of the issues and different perspectives. An alternative view is perfectly fine, and can certainly be healthy, but you have not given me any reason to think that what I said above is not the most likely explanation, but rather have given me reason to think that you are taking things personally despite me having gone to great lengths to highlight the individuality of this action and that policy makers and politicans be the ones to target to prevent this happening again.

In essence - if all of the available info points to one thing, then it is perfectly reasonable to discuss an issue in terms of that being the likely course of events. As new info comes to light, we should all analyse that and possibly change our viewpoint depending on what we have learned. We should not forget that we don't actually know who did this, but we shouldn't bury our heads in the sand either.

I'm sorry I think for myself and ignore things you repeatedly say , I'm not interested in changing your view, I'm interested in adding the possibility of alternatives..
I held back because I didn't want to embarrass myself, that's not something I'd regret...
Not preaching to the converted? Read this thread from the start..not a single alternate view..
Of course we are coming at this from two bases that are poles apart.. You as an academic with, as you have said before, a third level degree in conservation. So your analysis is based on a whole set of criteria that to some extent would be alien to me..I base my approach on what I have learnt from living and working in the countryside for many years, I have a third level degree in zilch except life.
I have also learnt from the people I have had to deal with over the years, the good ,the bad and the (sometimes) very ugly.
A little example, I remember as a teenager a chap my father allowed shoot rabbits on the land wandered into the yard one day and thrust a dead bird at him " what do ye make of this yoke boss,shot him out of a tree, some kind of hawk?" "That "my father told him " is one of our two long eared owls" . My father wasn't given to anger or violence but suffice to say if the man in question ever saw him approach in town he would cross to the other side of the street..
Any way with that I'll take my leave, nothing more to see here..

Capercaille · 02-02-2015 9:56pm

OpenYourEyes wrote: »

Dr. Barry O'Donoghue talking on Radio Kerry:

http://media.radiokerry.ie/mediamanager/embed/player/#podcasts/9/item/34912
(you might have to click the pane on the right, rather than just letting it play when you open it)

Apparently the shooting took place at the roost and the other Harriers from that roost are missing too - indicating it was definitely a targeted act, and obviously with the loss of other birds seeming likely, it just gets worse and worse!

:eek::eek::eek:

OpenYourEyes · 02-02-2015 10:02pm

Zoo4m8 wrote: »

I'm sorry I think for myself and ignore things you repeatedly say , I'm not interested in changing your view, I'm interested in adding the possibility of alternatives..
I held back because I didn't want to embarrass myself, that's not something I'd regret...
Not preaching to the converted? Read this thread from the start..not a single alternate view..
Of course we are coming at this from two bases that are poles apart.. You as an academic with, as you have said before, a third level degree in conservation. So your analysis is based on a whole set of criteria that to some extent would be alien to me..I base my approach on what I have learnt from living and working in the countryside for many years, I have a third level degree in zilch except life.
I have also learnt from the people I have had to deal with over the years, the good ,the bad and the (sometimes) very ugly.
A little example, I remember as a teenager a chap my father allowed shoot rabbits on the land wandered into the yard one day and thrust a dead bird at him " what do ye make of this yoke boss,shot him out of a tree, some kind of hawk?" "That "my father told him " is one of our two long eared owls" . My father wasn't given to anger or violence but suffice to say if the man in question ever saw him approach in town he would cross to the other side of the street..
Any way with that I'll take my leave, nothing more to see here..

I'm not saying you can't disagree with me - I'm saying you accuse me of things that aren't true, the evidence of which is in pretty much every post I've made.

Didn't want to embarrass yourself....that implies if you did embarrass yourself you would regret it....

There are alternate views, we just agree on the main things - there are disagreements on some of the finer points.

Ah yeah, sure what would I know, spent all my time in Dublin reading books and looking at pictures of farms, no life experience or knowledge of the countryside at all :rolleyes: My point was that my views and knowledge about conservation in Ireland were formed in a setting very well-informed on Irish agriculture and it's importance.

I am basing it on my own life experience, which includes but is not limited to third level education. I've lived in Roscommon for most of my life, next to a farm, and have encountered and talked to farmers and hunters and every other type of outdoor-type since I was small when out birdwatching, fishing, walking etc. In a county like this, rural matters dominate the agenda.

My discussion of this topic has not been academic, it has been based on the information made available to the public and common sense and logic. To suggest there is some sort of divide between peope with and without degrees only self-perpetuates that myth. The Hen Harrier conflict is a people problem - people need to come together and sort it out, that includes everyone!

Birdnuts · 02-02-2015 11:49pm

OpenYourEyes wrote: »

Dr. Barry O'Donoghue talking on Radio Kerry:

http://media.radiokerry.ie/mediamanager/embed/player/#podcasts/9/item/34912
(you might have to click the pane on the right, rather than just letting it play when you open it)

Apparently the shooting took place at the roost and the other Harriers from that roost are missing too - indicating it was definitely a targeted act, and obviously with the loss of other birds seeming likely, it just gets worse and worse!

I don't think they found other bodies though and Hen Harriers do move about a bit in regards to roosts. Hopefully this is not as bad as it sounds!!

On the more general point of media misinformation with regarding the HH SPA's - Barry and other workers need to strongly counteract the rubbish put out there by vested interests in certain media organs. I hope to see numerous articles in the coming months outlining were the real problems and faults lie in regards to this issue

Birdnuts · 03-02-2015 12:01am

djmc wrote: »

We really should lobby our political local TDs about this as they are the only one who can force change.
One thing that could be done for example is stop replanting after clear fell a lot of forestry in spa is owned by coilte a state owned company.
This would grow the hen harrier area.
Give farmers enough to cover their costs or rent land outside an spa area
Have an independent body to come to a fair sum or amount.
Stop fines for things like heather or rushes growing on land or else allow a fair use of chemical sprays to control them.
Under current law as I understand is clear felled forest has to be replanted to get felling license
Open your eyes you seem to have a good grasp of the problems.
The problem with farming in a traditional way is its not profitable any more and farming like any other business had to scale up and become more efficient to survive.
That means ploughing reseeding spraying draining etc. Nobody can survive on 5000 a year on glas scheme and pay their costs planners etc. out of it.
Not all spa ground is bad in that it was reclaimed and reseeded before the land was degesnated but every year it is becoming worse and less profitable.
As an example if a farmer in spa land had a hundred acres without restrictions
Option 1
Reseed and drain ground and let out for 200 an acre = 20000 euro
Option 2
Plant forestry 200 an acre tax free = 20000 euro
Option. 3
Join glas scheme and carry out mesures for protection of rare birds max payment 5000 before costs = 3500 to 4000 euro

Your right - the Irish state has totally undermined the economics around land designation in this country and it cannot be allowed to continue. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, unless this issue is dealt with in a way that satisfies farmers and delivers sustainable management for HH's and other upland wildlife, the nuclear option of an official complaint to the EU is the only option.

On the broader subject of agri policy in this country I have serious concerns about the path this government and their fan boys in the IFA are going down. Harvest 2020 forsees a massive upscale in beef and milk production. In the latter case farmers are being encouraged by Teagasc, Banks etc to take out massive loans to upscale. This against the backdrop of falling milk prices across the globe on the back of quotas going across Europe and the start of mechanised dairying in countries like India who alone have 500million cows of which a tiny % are currently managed in a vaguely commercial way. This is not going to end well for farmers in this country and the lessons from the past in regards to the devastation caused in the pork and poultry industries clearly have not been learned:(

Zoo4m8 · 03-02-2015 8:40am

OpenYourEyes wrote: »

I'm not saying you can't disagree with me - I'm saying you accuse me of things that aren't true, the evidence of which is in pretty much every post I've made.

Didn't want to embarrass yourself....that implies if you did embarrass yourself you would regret it....

There are alternate views, we just agree on the main things - there are disagreements on some of the finer points.

Ah yeah, sure what would I know, spent all my time in Dublin reading books and looking at pictures of farms, no life experience or knowledge of the countryside at all :rolleyes: My point was that my views and knowledge about conservation in Ireland were formed in a setting very well-informed on Irish agriculture and it's importance.

I am basing it on my own life experience, which includes but is not limited to third level education. I've lived in Roscommon for most of my life, next to a farm, and have encountered and talked to farmers and hunters and every other type of outdoor-type since I was small when out birdwatching, fishing, walking etc. In a county like this, rural matters dominate the agenda.

My discussion of this topic has not been academic, it has been based on the information made available to the public and common sense and logic. To suggest there is some sort of divide between peope with and without degrees only self-perpetuates that myth. The Hen Harrier conflict is a people problem - people need to come together and sort it out, that includes everyone!

Now this is just getting silly....what is the sarcasm about? I suggested two different approaches to the same issue.. Why so sensitive about that? I said my attitude is based on life experiences , you have ,as you have said on more than one occasion, a degree in conservation..your constant posts of links to various natural world related articles suggests someone who reads up /researches matter on the subject that interests them, so it stands to reason that you are going to approach an issue in a different mindset to me and others like me..whats the problem with that?
Now, I have read and reread my post and I cannot see how you would even begin to think that I was suggesting that there is a divide between people with degrees and those without ... The only conclusion that I can come to is that you are trying to suggest division / conflict where there is none.. This concerns me..

OpenYourEyes · 03-02-2015 12:14pm

A very good article, with plenty of background info. It includes mention of Minister Simon Coveneys tweets yesterday.
http://insideireland.ie/2015/02/03/minister-for-agriculture-says-recent-fatal-shooting-of-young-female-hen-harrier-in-kerry-needs-to-be-strongly-condemned-107726/

The Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine, Simon Coveney said he will do what he can in Rural Development Programme to ‘financially assist farmers with land designated for Hen Harrier’. He added, ’nobody should take law into their own hands’.

Hen Harriers would fall under the portfolio of the Dept of Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht, but agri-environment schemes to protect birds come from the Dept of Agriculture. In addition, the Dept of Ag was given the money to compensate farmers with designated lands:

In 2013 the Department of Agriculture cut the budget for designated sites by more than 80%, from €528 million to €95 million, and reallocated the money elsewhere.These farmers have been sold out and the Hen Harrier is being used as a scapegoat. An Taisce will be fighting to ensure that the affected farmers receive the compensation they deserve in the upcoming Hen Harrier Threat Response Plan stakeholder consultation. We are open to working with any groups or individuals who wish to fight to preserve the rich heritage of our uplands.

-An Taisce

The article includes plenty of quotes and context, well worth a read.

djmc · 03-02-2015 8:09pm

http://www.agriland.ie/news/gardai-investigating-death-hen-harrier-kerry/
Another article that is a bit misleading
The minister said that their are only two restrictions on farmers lands when the npws website clearly gives a longer list including
Drainage spraying reseeding ploughing pony trecking planting or cutting of trees quad biking
Comercial Removal of peat Growing Bio fuels etc.
Not saying restrictions aren't needed but let's call a spade a spade.
I have also seen reports about ifdl group having vested interests when they are just a group of farmers who have been ignored by the IFA and government for years and had to set up their own group to highlight the issue and try to put some value back in their land

Woodville56 · 03-02-2015 8:58pm

Happy to be able to tick the box on the local Roostwatch site this evening - a gorgeous graceful ringtail showed up and quartered the reeds for 7 or 8 minutes ! Wonderful to see but sad to think that this bird should be considered one of the lucky ones - so far. Can't but feel sad and angry about what happened to Heather down in Kerry. Maybe it's a forlorn hope, but with community and statutory authorities cooperating, hopefully the perpetrator(s) will be found and once case proven, dealt with as the Scottish authorities dealt with the Goshawk killer recently - it's time wildlife crime was taken seriously here - while the proliferation of condemnations is helpful in raising the profile of wildlife crime, those who flout the wildlife legislation, be they persons acting with the tacit backing of powerful interest groups or populist local politics, or perhaps they're just delinquent shooters, they need to be brought to account for their actions. If they are allowed to prevail, we lose our Harriers, Eagles, Kites and other scarce raptor species - stark but simple choice !

Uriel. · 03-02-2015 9:39pm

djmc wrote: »

http://www.agriland.ie/news/gardai-investigating-death-hen-harrier-kerry/
Another article that is a bit misleading
The minister said that their are only two restrictions on farmers lands when the npws website clearly gives a longer list including
Drainage spraying reseeding ploughing pony trecking planting or cutting of trees quad biking
Comercial Removal of peat Growing Bio fuels etc.
Not saying restrictions aren't needed but let's call a spade a spade.
I have also seen reports about ifdl group having vested interests when they are just a group of farmers who have been ignored by the IFA and government for years and had to set up their own group to highlight the issue and try to put some value back in their land

Potential restrictions-not all of those potential restrictions will apply to every farmer or indeed to every part of a farmer's lands

OpenYourEyes · 03-02-2015 10:40pm

Hi DJMC, looking at the statutory instruments for two Hen harrier SPA's it seems there are three things you can't do without ministerial consent:

SCHEDULE 4

SITE SPECIFIC OPERATIONS OR ACTIVITIES REQUIRING CONSENT OF THE MINISTER:

1. Construction, removal or alteration of fences, stone walls, hedgerows, banks or any field boundary other than temporary electric fencing. (Consent is not required for normal maintenance.)

2. Agricultural improvement of heath or bog.

3. Off-road recreational use of mechanically propelled vehicles.

Links: (1) (2)

And removal of hedgerows etc and bog-related activities like that require permission anyway I think? So not unique to Hen harrier SPAs.

Could you link to the part of the NPWS website you're referring to?

djmc · 03-02-2015 10:52pm

OpenYourEyes wrote: »

Hi DJMC, looking at the statutory instruments for two Hen harrier SPA's it seems there are three things you can't do without ministerial consent:

Links: (1) (2)

And removal of hedgerows etc and bog-related activities like that require permission anyway I think? So not unique to Hen harrier SPAs.

Could you link to the part of the NPWS website you're referring to?

Link
http://www.npws.ie/farmerslandowners/notifiableactions/
http://www.npws.ie/farmerslandowners/notifiableactions/notifiableactionsforlistedhabitatsandspecies/

Birdnuts · 04-02-2015 12:30am

OpenYourEyes wrote: »

A very good article, with plenty of background info. It includes mention of Minister Simon Coveneys tweets yesterday.
http://insideireland.ie/2015/02/03/minister-for-agriculture-says-recent-fatal-shooting-of-young-female-hen-harrier-in-kerry-needs-to-be-strongly-condemned-107726/

.

Weasel words from Coveney. He and his officials set the agenda in this area and they have consistently failed to support sustainable/traditional farming practices on designated and marginal lands. He needs to be robustly questioned on why his dept syphoned so much EU money away from its intended purposes

OpenYourEyes · 07-02-2015 12:24pm

A very well written piece by Paddy Woodworth in the Irish Times: http://www.irishtimes.com/culture/heritage/the-shooting-of-a-bird-of-prey-1.2094347#.VNXT4iWN9d8.twitter

I won't quote it all - I really do suggest everyone reads it from start to finish, but here's a particularly pertinenet part of it:

If we start to think that the key issue is birds versus people, we are all losers.

But if Healy-Rae overstates current problems, he is tapping into a legitimate frustration felt by many marginal farmers. Partly because of cutbacks after the crash, far too few of them were able to avail of the payments incentivising nature-friendly farming in the special protection areas designated for hen harriers and other species. And these payments are capped far too low, at €5,000 a year, and do not take proper account of farm sizes.

Environmentalists and farmers
Meanwhile, some environmentalists persist in simplistically seeing farmers as the enemy, failing to recognise that agriculture is essential to the conservation of biodiversity as we have known it in recent centuries.

When our marginal farmers abandon holdings that are often no longer commercially viable, scrubland usually quickly dominates the mosaics of habitats that birds such as the hen harrier need to survive and that farmers used to keep open. There is surely something encouraging about this mutual dependence between our own and other species.

Capercaille · 07-02-2015 5:11pm

OpenYourEyes wrote: »

A very well written piece by Paddy Woodworth in the Irish Times: http://www.irishtimes.com/culture/heritage/the-shooting-of-a-bird-of-prey-1.2094347#.VNXT4iWN9d8.twitter

I won't quote it all - I really do suggest everyone reads it from start to finish, but here's a particularly pertinenet part of it:

I'm entering GLAS. I've been told to make to make sure I've all my OSI maps, folio sorted out quickly. The money for the GLAS scheme will run out quickly.

With luck – don’t hold your breath – the new raft of agrienvironmental measures due to be announced this month, known as the Glas programme, will at last reward farmers properly for environmental stewardship. If our society wants nature conservation it should pay for it

Birdnuts · 07-02-2015 11:29pm

OpenYourEyes wrote: »

A very well written piece by Paddy Woodworth in the Irish Times: http://www.irishtimes.com/culture/heritage/the-shooting-of-a-bird-of-prey-1.2094347#.VNXT4iWN9d8.twitter

I won't quote it all - I really do suggest everyone reads it from start to finish, but here's a particularly pertinenet part of it:

Refreshing to read something in the media on such subjects that was actually properly researched for once.

OpenYourEyes · 07-02-2015 11:32pm

Birdnuts wrote: »

Refreshing to read something in the media on such subjects that was actually properly researched for once.

He did dismiss the value of scrub as a habitat, which isn't right, but otherwise and overall I thought it was a good and balanced article alright!

OpenYourEyes · 09-02-2015 2:41pm

A new article, and unfortunately theres a lot wrong with it:
http://www.irishexaminer.com/viewpoints/analysis/farmers-urge-fair-deal-on-hen-harrier-land-311387.html

The article says at least twice that farmers have co-existed and looked after Hen Harriers for centuries - but that completely ignores the intensification here since the 1970's and the fact that Hen harrier numbers are declining significantly.

It also says the designations will ruin rural areas etc, though when you consider that the main point of contention is that forestry can't be planted and forestry doesnt require frequent day-t-day or week-to-week management like normal agricultural land does, then I think planting large areas of forestry is as much a threat to rural populations as anything else!

The IFDL and the farmer interviewed seem to realise that the issue is the lack of compensation, not the Hen Harrier - which is very encouraging. Unfortunately, the farmer towards the end seems to think this an NPWS issue, when in fact it's a Department of Agriculture issue. NPWS payed €13million out of its own budget to go towards Hen Harrier land management and compensation, whereas the department of agriculture had a budget of >€400 million for that kind of thing and they made it disappear!

OpenYourEyes · 09-02-2015 4:33pm

Pat Kenny show on Newstalk - interviews with IFDL chairman Jason Fitzgerald and John Lusby, raptor conservation officer with Birdwatch Ireland:

http://www.newstalk.com/player/podcasts/The_Pat_Kenny_Show/The_Pat_Kenny_Show_Highlights/77921/0/the_real_cost_of_protecting_the_hen_harrier

Desmo · 09-02-2015 6:40pm

at last (someone from BWI on that show; John Lusby great on raptors)

OpenYourEyes · 10-02-2015 6:14pm

The theory is being put about that Heather the Hen Harrier was shot by Snipe or Woodcock shooters that didn't know what they were shooting. Obviously I don't have the evidence the Gardai have (though I do know that Snipe/Woodcock look and behave nothing like a Hen Harrier), but to me it seems unlikely:

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/hen-harrier-may-have-been-killed-by-snipe-hunters-311675.html

Woodville56 · 10-02-2015 6:36pm

I've just read in today's Irish Times -

"Gardai investigating the shooting of the Kerry Hen Harrier do not believe the bird was deliberately targeted.They suspect it was killed by mistake by people shooting duck, woodcock and snipe....A senior Garda officer said it was believed the bird may have been shot accidentally, most likely by one of the parties of visitors from abroad who come to South Kerry in December and January for shooting holidays....It was highly likely the shooters involved did not realise what they had shot"

If the above is true it just adds insult to injury in this case ! Is there no regulation of visiting hunters in terms of them being advised what they can and cannot shoot or are they allowed to bring their indiscriminate continental habits of shooting wild birds with them when they come here ?? Are they and those who organise such shooting holidays oblivious and not answerable to our wildlife legislation? As for the " didn't realise what they had shot" how could anyone mistake a harrier for a duck, snipe or woodcock? That line should be from a Speccsavers ad! The " it may have been outsiders" theory of the Garda may be just a bit convenient and just muddies the water on the investigation, thus shifting the focus from a possible local renegade shooter even ?