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Leo Again

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Comments

  • #332
    efb
    Closed Accounts Posts: 35,514 ✭✭✭✭efb


    fran17 wrote: »
    But this is the whole crux of the issue.As you well know there is absolutely no way of gaining statistics regarding gay men who abstained for a minimum of 12 months because you cannot prove they have abstained.An issue like this which has gigantic consequences and domino effects that will effect every facet of the system cannot be regulated by ticking a box on a form.There must be a legal deterrent,with consequences,to counter it.
    I would also be very sceptical to believe that a healthy active male,be him straight or gay,would abstain from sex for 12 months to be allowed to donate blood.It would be quite upstanding if one was to but again I would be quite sceptical of it.

    Well scientific decisios luckily aren't based on one person's sceptical agenda

    Lots of bans are time based


  • #333
    skooterblue2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,816 ✭✭✭skooterblue2


    efb wrote: »
    Really how many times last year did the IBTS issue emergency appeals for donors???

    When I was a Donor I used be texted when B- was low

    A blood bank like a (supposed) real bank needs a reserve. They must have reserve to dip into for day to day operations. They need blood for elective operations, Kidney dylasis, Cancer patients and others but these are predictiable like regular expeditures. What you cant predict is emergency operations and car crashes and the like. I have often heard of a patient being given 5 pints of blood in the A&E only to die on the table.

    People say blood is free? Its not it is more valuable than gold. In a two minute period a blood transfusion could be the difference between and oxgenated brain and brain damage. In 8 minutes it could be the difference between life and death. If a dylasis patient get a clot during treatment they lose a quarter pint of blood, fixing the machine. That will knock them out for 3 days. These people dont see blood as free.

    Blood Stocks of A and O are fine ... just B is the tricky one, B neg is particularily troublesome. This is not the story of blood shortages its a case of Doner mismanagement and civic education and awareness.

    I am particularily disappointed you are not more well read about Blood Scandals considering you own blood group @efb. You do know how the Hepatitis C blood scandal happened dont you? You have read the report? It was only one donation that caused so many women this dreadful way to die? This Scandal is still going on.... women are living with hepatitis C every day.


  • #334
    Flem31
    Closed Accounts Posts: 341 ✭✭Flem31


    efb wrote: »
    I can remember a big crisis last summer, as they came into my workplace for donations

    They could also open up D'Olier Street on a Saturday, or possibly up until 9pm at least one night a week.
    I remember in the past giving blood there after 8pm but with curtailed hours, it you work 9 to 5.30 M-F in the greater Dublin area, the chances of giving blood are slim.
    And that affects the whole population.

    If there are shortages in blood supply, it is partly of the IBTS's making.


  • #335
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,232 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    efb wrote: »
    Lots of gay men I know don't bother with anal sex anymore especially as part of a ltr

    And even the ESRI report fran linked to states that

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #336
    efb
    Closed Accounts Posts: 35,514 ✭✭✭✭efb


    fran17 wrote: »
    But this is the whole crux of the issue.As you well know there is absolutely no way of gaining statistics regarding gay men who abstained for a minimum of 12 months because you cannot prove they have abstained.An issue like this which has gigantic consequences and domino effects that will effect every facet of the system cannot be regulated by ticking a box on a form.There must be a legal deterrent,with consequences,to counter it.
    I would also be very sceptical to believe that a healthy active male,be him straight or gay,would abstain from sex for 12 months to be allowed to donate blood.It would be quite upstanding if one was to but again I would be quite sceptical of it.

    What would stop me from going in and lying now then???

    If they lie about abstaining they'd lie about having anal sex too


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  • #337
    efb
    Closed Accounts Posts: 35,514 ✭✭✭✭efb


    Flem31 wrote: »
    They could also open up D'Olier Street on a Saturday, or possibly up until 9pm at least one night a week.
    I remember in the past giving blood there after 8pm but with curtailed hours, it you work 9 to 5.30 M-F in the greater Dublin area, the chances of giving blood are slim.
    And that affects the whole population.

    If there are shortages in blood supply, it is partly of the IBTS's making.

    Afaik they do!


  • #338
    efb
    Closed Accounts Posts: 35,514 ✭✭✭✭efb


    skooterblue2 wrote: »
    A blood bank like a (supposed) real bank needs a reserve. They must have reserve to dip into for day to day operations. They need blood for elective operations, Kidney dylasis, Cancer patients and others but these are predictiable like regular expeditures. What you cant predict is emergency operations and car crashes and the like. I have often heard of a patient being given 5 pints of blood in the A&E only to die on the table.

    People say blood is free? Its not it is more valuable than gold. In a two minute period a blood transfusion could be the difference between and oxgenated brain and brain damage. In 8 minutes it could be the difference between life and death. If a dylasis patient get a clot during treatment they lose a quarter pint of blood, fixing the machine. That will knock them out for 3 days. These people dont see blood as free.

    Blood Stocks of A and O are fine ... just B is the tricky one, B neg is particularily troublesome. This is not the story of blood shortages its a case of Doner mismanagement and civic education and awareness.

    I am particularily disappointed you are not more well read about Blood Scandals considering you own blood group @efb. You do know how the Hepatitis C blood scandal happened dont you? You have read the report? It was only one donation that caused so many women this dreadful way to die? This Scandal is still going on.... women are living with hepatitis C every day.

    And the problem was covered up so causing the issue to escalate and more women to be infected.

    Do you not think its a disgrace that no one was ever held accountable?

    I know people living with HIV but as they may have contracted it by sexual means that's bad AIDS I guess...


  • #339
    efb
    Closed Accounts Posts: 35,514 ✭✭✭✭efb


    Also the Hep C donor had jaundice, so was not in the MSM category.

    It was poor management that caused the misery and suffering nothing to do with a MSM ban


  • #340
    Flem31
    Closed Accounts Posts: 341 ✭✭Flem31


    efb wrote: »
    Afaik they do!

    Why does the website indicate something different ?


  • #341
    efb
    Closed Accounts Posts: 35,514 ✭✭✭✭efb


    Flem31 wrote: »
    Why does the website indicate something different ?

    Monday: 12:30pm - 4:30pm
    Tuesday: 10:00am - 6:00pm
    Wednesday: 12:30pm - 7:00pm
    Thursday: 10:00am - 7:00pm
    Friday: 8:30am - 2:30pm


    I would consider Wed and Thurs open for after work donations


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  • #342
    Timberrrrrrrr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,873 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    fran17 wrote: »
    But this is the whole crux of the issue.As you well know there is absolutely no way of gaining statistics regarding gay men who abstained for a minimum of 12 months because you cannot prove they have abstained.An issue like this which has gigantic consequences and domino effects that will effect every facet of the system cannot be regulated by ticking a box on a form.There must be a legal deterrent,with consequences,to counter it.
    I would also be very sceptical to believe that a healthy active male,be him straight or gay,would abstain from sex for 12 months to be allowed to donate blood.It would be quite upstanding if one was to but again I would be quite sceptical of it.

    How would you prove any of the following?
    Have you had a tattoo or body piercing in the last 4 months?
    Have you spent one year or more in total/cumulatively in the UK* between 1980 and 1996, including living, working or on holidays?
    Have you visited an area where there is a risk of West Nile Virus (such as Canada, the USA, parts of Europe, Israel, Ukraine or Russia) in the last 28 days?
    Have you visited a tropical* or a malarial country in the last 12 months?

    Are you currently taking any medication other than the pill or HRT for the menopause?


  • #343
    skooterblue2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,816 ✭✭✭skooterblue2


    B_Wayne wrote: »
    The guy from the Haemophilia Society is in favour of removing as long as based on scientific evidence. So maybe the likes of Fran should stop pretending to be representative. It will be based on scientific evidence.
    www[dot]herald[dot]ie/news/patients-to-have-say-in-gay-blood-ban-varadkar-30952243.html

    Maybe you should ask a patient and not mr Varadkar about it. How about 1000 women and a few men who received Hepatitis C through blood Transfusion? Please dont bother Bridget McCole famiily she died while Michael Noonan thought it was more cost effective to dither on the subject. I wonder how many haemophiliac who got dodgy blood products in the 1980's are still alive that should be alive today. The Haemophillia groups are quietly voicing discontent in the ranks.

    Then the IBTS covered it up for over 20 years. it cst the state 818M Euro and it is still not over. There is no way in HELL the Haemophilia Society are going to back it. That is their nice way of staying "we dont want it and no doctor is going to stand over it".

    The People on this forum who are pushing it..... have nothing to lose professionally. If they are quoting the Irish Haemophilic Assocation, who I have never heard of. They cant tell the difference between Hep C and B. And get confused between Hepatitis and the haemophilia scandals of the 80's. Cant see why visiting Africa has inherent dangers making unsuitable doners. Maybe you should ask a medical professional or a victim of these mal practices. Watch a person die slowly needlessly day by day knowing there is nothing you could do and this could have been easily prevented.

    The lives on the Titanic werent lost because it hit an iceberg .... it was a whole lot of little things along the way. One break in a chain of errors would have saved the ship. I feel this is a bad precident we are setting and because my name isnt up here ... I can say this will collapse the blood bank and the Government in turn. If passed this will lead to a further blood scandal down the road.

    BTW the Herald is not a medical journal and most likely written by an arts student on Jobsbridge, that did zip research or asked a medical professional for an opinion. Concieved at 11am, typed by 12 pm and printed by 4pm. Tabloid journalism, at least we got a good story.


  • #344
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,232 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    fran17 wrote: »
    http://www.ucd.ie/issda/static/documentation/esri/isshr-report.pdf

    Have you read the findings of that report on MSM?



    AMONG both men and women who have experienced a same-sex partnership, only a minority reported practising oral and anal sex.

    The majority of men (70%) who have had same-sex genital contact have never either given or received anal sex and less than 10% have had anal sex ‘in the last month’.

    A minority of men (33%) who have had homosexual contact reported homosexual oral sex ‘in the last year’.

    17% of men who have had homosexual contact had homosexual anal sex ‘in the last year’.

    27% of men who have had homosexual contact reported never having homosexual oral sex.

    68% of men who have had homosexual contact reported never having homosexual anal sex.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #345
    skooterblue2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,816 ✭✭✭skooterblue2


    efb wrote: »

    Do you not think its a disgrace that no one was ever held accountable?

    I know people living with HIV but as they may have contracted it by sexual means that's bad AIDS I guess...

    Actually I have stated that before that no one was held accountable.

    Dont understand the second point, and how it relates to my statement. but you are entitled to free speech.


  • #346
    Flem31
    Closed Accounts Posts: 341 ✭✭Flem31


    efb wrote: »
    Monday: 12:30pm - 4:30pm
    Tuesday: 10:00am - 6:00pm
    Wednesday: 12:30pm - 7:00pm
    Thursday: 10:00am - 7:00pm
    Friday: 8:30am - 2:30pm


    I would consider Wed and Thurs open for after work donations


    I wouldn't, it assumes all donors work relatively close to the clinic.


  • #347
    skooterblue2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,816 ✭✭✭skooterblue2


    Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »
    How would you prove any of the following?

    When you sign .... you sign on your honour. This has been lost to society, along with hand shakes, your word is your bond, loyalty and character.
    Dont give blood as if it was a donation ... give blood as if you were giving it to your "brother"* or best friend. If you cant give them the best better not to give at all.

    *Brotherhood another thing that has been lost in society. Seeing all men as brothers who we are oblidged to help under certain conditions.


  • #348
    efb
    Closed Accounts Posts: 35,514 ✭✭✭✭efb


    skooterblue2 wrote: »
    Actually I have stated that before that no one was held accountable.

    Dont understand the second point, and how it relates to my statement. but you are entitled to free speech.
    I asked whether you think it's a disgrace


  • #349
    skooterblue2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,816 ✭✭✭skooterblue2


    efb wrote: »
    I asked whether you think it's a disgrace

    that was a question not a point. I already stated that no one has held professionally acountable and people should have been at the very least be struck off for covering it up but not for how it orignally occurred. Do you know exactly how it came about? how it unfolded ? I dont think you do.

    I am also curious what your friends with HIV and how they contracted it have to do with my opinion. I have no opinion on them because I do not know them or anything about them other than to say that all life is precious.


  • #350
    floggg
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,821 ✭✭✭floggg


    Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »
    How would you prove any of the following?

    Well obviously heterosexuals would never lies. Those homos though...:rolleyes:


  • #351
    B_Wayne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,039 ✭✭✭B_Wayne


    skooterblue2 wrote: »
    Maybe you should ask a patient and not mr Varadkar about it. How about 1000 women and a few men who received Hepatitis C through blood Transfusion? Please dont bother Bridget McCole famiily she died while Michael Noonan thought it was more cost effective to dither on the subject. I wonder how many haemophiliac who got dodgy blood products in the 1980's are still alive that should be alive today. The Haemophillia groups are quietly voicing discontent in the ranks.

    Then the IBTS covered it up for over 20 years. it cst the state 818M Euro and it is still not over. There is no way in HELL the Haemophilia Society are going to back it. That is their nice way of staying "we dont want it and no doctor is going to stand over it".

    The People on this forum who are pushing it..... have nothing to lose professionally. If they are quoting the Irish Haemophilic Assocation, who I have never heard of. They cant tell the difference between Hep C and B. And get confused between Hepatitis and the haemophilia scandals of the 80's. Cant see why visiting Africa has inherent dangers making unsuitable doners. Maybe you should ask a medical professional or a victim of these mal practices. Watch a person die slowly needlessly day by day knowing there is nothing you could do and this could have been easily prevented.

    The lives on the Titanic werent lost because it hit an iceberg .... it was a whole lot of little things along the way. One break in a chain of errors would have saved the ship. I feel this is a bad precident we are setting and because my name isnt up here ... I can say this will collapse the blood bank and the Government in turn. If passed this will lead to a further blood scandal down the road.

    BTW the Herald is not a medical journal and most likely written by an arts student on Jobsbridge, that did zip research or asked a medical professional for an opinion. Concieved at 11am, typed by 12 pm and printed by 4pm. Tabloid journalism, at least we got a good story.

    Can you refer to me where I said the herald was a journal? This was also reported on the news and I never once said decisions will be based on news reports, actual conclusions will come based on research, not the herald. You're 'feeling' all of this but conclusions on best practise are based on research, not your personal conclusions.


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  • #352
    skooterblue2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,816 ✭✭✭skooterblue2


    B_Wayne wrote: »
    Can you refer to me where I said the herald was a journal? This was also reported on the news and I never once said decisions will be based on news reports, actual conclusions will come based on research, not the herald. You're 'feeling' all of this but conclusions on best practise are based on research, not your personal conclusions.

    you are quoting it like it is sound source. I wouldnt use the Herald in this context no more than I would talk about american politics using the National Enquirer. I am basing my conclusions on experience, on research, on debate taken at kitchen table (great place to learn stuff at your fathers table) between Doctors nurses a medical engineer and on my professional degree (which I have two btw and working on the third in medical science).

    Still waiting for a Doctors report to back it up.


  • #353
    efb
    Closed Accounts Posts: 35,514 ✭✭✭✭efb


    More anecdotal evidence should we doth our cap to you?


  • #354
    skooterblue2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,816 ✭✭✭skooterblue2


    efb wrote: »
    More anecdotal evidence should we doth our cap to you?

    I would love to hear your medical background........ I do love an informed opinion.


  • #355
    skooterblue2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,816 ✭✭✭skooterblue2


    efb wrote: »
    More anecdotal evidence should we doth our cap to you?

    I would love to hear your medical background........ I do love an informed opinion.


  • #356
    efb
    Closed Accounts Posts: 35,514 ✭✭✭✭efb


    skooterblue2 wrote: »
    I would love to hear your medical background........ I do love an informed opinion.

    My background is none of your business

    I have reiterated if the report recommends a 12 month wait after MSM I'd agree


  • #357
    skooterblue2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,816 ✭✭✭skooterblue2


    So there is nothing behind it your opinions? there isnt even a level 4 carers cert? you dodge ever question like how did the blood get contaminated the first day? Why should the people who caused the cross contamination not be prosecuted but the people who covered it up should? you have opinons but nothing else.

    That is a Massive "IF" and "IF" it does happen there will be a motion of no confidence in the IBTS director, Doctors will go running for the hills saying not on my insurance. Positive Action and Haemophilia society will be screaming blue murder. Little Leo will have to go back with his tail between his legs and say "not feasible at this time". What will the Irish Haemophiliac Association say ? Nuttin cos they dont exist!!! they are anecodotal.

    Miss you are talking through your hoop and you have been caught out.


  • #358
    efb
    Closed Accounts Posts: 35,514 ✭✭✭✭efb


    skooterblue2 wrote: »
    So there is nothing behind it your opinions? there isnt even a level 4 carers cert? you dodge ever question like how did the blood get contaminated the first day? Why should the people who caused the cross contamination not be prosecuted but the people who covered it up should? you have opinons but nothing else.

    That is a Massive "IF" and "IF" it does happen there will be a motion of no confidence in the IBTS director, Doctors will go running for the hills saying not on my insurance. Positive Action and Haemophilia society will be screaming blue murder. Little Leo will have to go back with his tail between his legs and say "not feasible at this time". What will the Irish Haemophiliac Association say ? Nuttin cos they dont exist!!! they are anecodotal.

    Miss you are talking through your hoop and you have been caught out.

    Clearly I gave them an incorrect title and you are jumping all over it. Should the lady with Jaundice be prosecuted?


  • #359
    efb
    Closed Accounts Posts: 35,514 ✭✭✭✭efb


    skooterblue2 wrote: »
    So there is nothing behind it your opinions? there isnt even a level 4 carers cert? you dodge ever question like how did the blood get contaminated the first day? Why should the people who caused the cross contamination not be prosecuted but the people who covered it up should? you have opinons but nothing else.

    That is a Massive "IF" and "IF" it does happen there will be a motion of no confidence in the IBTS director, Doctors will go running for the hills saying not on my insurance. Positive Action and Haemophilia society will be screaming blue murder. Little Leo will have to go back with his tail between his legs and say "not feasible at this time". What will the Irish Haemophiliac Association say ? Nuttin cos they dont exist!!! they are anecodotal.

    Miss you are talking through your hoop and you have been caught out.

    Lol at the hysterics at the end. You based your argument on anecdotal evidence and personal opinion. I'll let science decide


  • #360
    efb
    Closed Accounts Posts: 35,514 ✭✭✭✭efb


    Flem31 wrote: »
    I wouldn't, it assumes all donors work relatively close to the clinic.

    2 hours after normal office closing time


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  • #361
    B_Wayne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,039 ✭✭✭B_Wayne


    skooterblue2 wrote: »
    you are quoting it like it is sound source. I wouldnt use the Herald in this context no more than I would talk about american politics using the National Enquirer. I am basing my conclusions on experience, on research, on debate taken at kitchen table (great place to learn stuff at your fathers table) between Doctors nurses a medical engineer and on my professional degree (which I have two btw and working on the third in medical science).

    Still waiting for a Doctors report to back it up.

    Yep, I've also listened to nurses and doctors with differing opinions on the matter. He has reiterated numerous times that he doesn't view as equality issue so will use medical conclusions rather than LGBT grounds to make decision.

    I'm lost on what's the issue with using the research to make conclusions... Your view is not the be all and end all, I'll happily support if conclusion is to retain ban based on research.

    I was merely linking to one publication that used it. The original source is Morning Ireland where I originally heard it. But carry on with your national enquirer quips!
    www[dot]rte[dot]ie/news/2015/0130/676655-blood/

    He also appears to be putting much thought into decision btw and to claim he's rash in decision making is dishonest. So really, seems as if he's going to be doing much consulting on issue. So you know, he's doing his job....

    'Speaking in Limerick, Mr Varadkar said he wanted to consult with a number of patient groups and to get the advise of the Department of Health's Chief Medical Officer, adding that all of their views require consideration. '


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