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If... the Unforgiving Minute

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,623 ✭✭✭dna_leri


    Entered for the 3000m but still doubtful whether I will travel.
    Calf has been a bit tight since Sunday.
    Been trying to ease it out this evening.
    I will decide in the morning.

    Not looking for anything spectacular anyway, probably start out around 9:30 pace, see how it goes.
    Are you travelling down pconn062 ?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,370 ✭✭✭pconn062


    dna_leri wrote: »
    Entered for the 3000m but still doubtful whether I will travel.
    Calf has been a bit tight since Sunday.
    Been trying to ease it out this evening.
    I will decide in the morning.

    Not looking for anything spectacular anyway, probably start out around 9:30 pace, see how it goes.
    Are you travelling down pconn062 ?

    Ah I see, hope it loosens out for you. No not travelling down tomorrow, have a few hours work to do tomorrow evening. Would have loved a 3k but will have to wait for the new year.

    Good luck.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,623 ✭✭✭dna_leri


    Legs were still not 100% on Wednesday but I headed down to Athlone for the Baseline Meet anyway.
    I had entered the 3000m with low expectations, which was just as well.
    I have never ran a 3K before so it was always going to be a PB but at 9:45 it was more of a pb.

    Fortunately I was drawn in the second heat so I avoided being lapped by John Travers on his way to just over 8 min 3K. My plan was to start at 9:30 pace (38s per lap) and see how I felt but even the first few laps were fractions slow. The great thing about indoors running is you can judge your pace each lap but the downside is 15 of those laps…

    I hit 1K in 3:13 and I was moving ok at the back of the lead group. In the second km, the leaders upped the pace and I drifted off the back of the group. From there I was mostly on my own, although I had someone on my shoulder for a while. I kept the pace reasonable consistent but dropped to 3:17 per km.

    I had to dig deeper in the last km. For a while it looked like 3rd place was coming back to me but he picked it up. I considered pulling out several times but I have never had a DNF so I persevered for a 3:15 final km

    It was good to get to run in Athlone again and the event was well run - too efficiently for some as they went up to 30 mins ahead of schedule. It's always good to watch the other events - Sacksian ran well, I saw HappyGoose complete the set in the "10 round numbers" although I did not know it. Chivito was there somewhere as well, but I missed his races. Highlights on the elite side were John Travers and Ciara Mageean. Some good young sprint talent also on view.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,896 ✭✭✭Sacksian


    Good to talk to you again last night - you didn't look like you were about to pull out but, as I also found out, it's tough when you're caught between groups!

    I'll have another go in the summer but can't get my head around the 3k at all - roll on the 800s...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,697 ✭✭✭Chivito550


    Well done. I saw you sitting on the stands but I was about to head to my 300 so didn't have time to stop by. Didn't see you afterwards. Catch you at the next one no doubt.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 703 ✭✭✭happygoose


    I just realised from your result / Club singlet that I was talking to you as we sat on the bench waiting for our 3k.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,623 ✭✭✭dna_leri


    happygoose wrote: »
    I just realised from your result / Club singlet that I was talking to you as we say on the bench waiting for our 3k.

    Good to meet you, though I did not know it either, it's a small world in track.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,623 ✭✭✭dna_leri


    After the 3K in Athlone I rested on Thursday, then kept it easy with 4 miles on Friday and 10 miles on Saturday 20th. On Sunday I did 4x150m in about 21s with full recovery, which is around 400m pace. With limited time I did the session on a nice stretch of forest trail.

    Monday again was a recovery run of 4 miles.

    Tuesday: I went back to the same forest track as Sunday for another session. With all the rain, I now had a stream flowing across the path which gave an extra hurdle challenge.
    Plan was: 500m(1ml), 150m(800m), 400m(1mi), 100m(400m), 300m(1mi), 100(400m) [3']
    It looks a long complicated session but actually was 500-400-300m at mile pace, followed by 150m at 800 pace or 100m at 400 pace with 3 min intervals. I simplified it further by changing the 150 to 130m at 400 pace to avoid the diverted stream.
    Given the conditions, times were not going to be important but I still clocked them anyway. 500m 1:30; 130m 22.5s; 400m 1:10; 100m 15s; 300m 49.5s; 100m 15s.

    Wednesday: I did 10 easy miles on the trails.

    Friday: Goal Mile in 5:10. The last few years I have done the goal mile on the track but mostly ended up in a solo time trial. In the hope of more competition, this year I went to a different one on the roads in Rosses Point going from the golf club to the beach car park and back. However there was only one other guy likely to push the pace and he has not been in serious training recently so there was no chance of me breaking 5 mins. I let the kids lead it out for the first quarter, then 2 of us took up the running. I took the lead at the turn and tried to push it a bit on the way back but I was on my own and did not dig deep. It was still a decent workout.

    Saturday: Another 10 easy miles on the trails.

    I have diverted from coach Steve's plan the last few weeks but I will try to get back on track next week.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,623 ✭✭✭dna_leri


    Sunday, I did 3x400m with 50m at 400 pace followed by 50m cruise and 4 mins between each lap. First one was a bit slow (76s) - missed one of my check points, next two were 71 & 69s.

    Monday - 4 easy miles. Last 2 were exactly 7:11 without trying.

    Tuesday Hill session before breakfast was tough but on the plus side there was nothing to bring back up. Plan was 2x2min(5K); 2x90s(3K); 2x60s(1mi); 2x30s(hard). Picked a medium incline on a forest trail. First rep was a bit short - ran out of hill. Got it right for the rest. Jog back recovery took 3-4 mins but got shorter as the reps got faster, ouch.

    Wednesday - 4 more easy miles. Again the 3rd one turned out to be 7:11 - must be my comfortable pace.

    Thursday - had planned an 800m pace session but swapped it for an easier one as I was not 100% after New Years Eve. Made it to a wet and windy track and after warm-up and drills did 4x200m at 400m pace. First one was 29.4s in flats - not even close (there is a pattern here of ffing up the first rep). Put on training spikes and after that they went better 27.8, 28.3, 28.1. Recovery was not specified but I took 5-6 mins which was enough without getting too cold or wet.

    Friday - 5 miles easy

    Saturday - 10 miles easy with almost 20 in the group - must be the new year. One quick mile to finish.

    Always find it hard to keep the routine during holidays but happy enough with the last two weeks despite lots of food and drink. Weighed myself for the first time in months today - 2Kg higher than I would like to be which is recoverable.

    One more session tomorrow at 800m pace to finish the week off.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,623 ✭✭✭dna_leri


    Quick Review of the year just gone.

    Started with 2nd place in the indoor masters 800m which I was disappointed with. Upped my mileage after that which helped me score a 10K PB in April 36:23 but not much else.

    I ran an outdoors 800m PB 2:04.7 in June which is still 2s off my indoor PB. I won the M45 400m in September despite racing like an idiot. Only did 4 track races in total for the summer.

    Did 4x 5Ks - only one under 17 mins at the end of November.
    Finished with a 3K indoors - only a PB because I never did one before.
    Overall a pretty average year.

    Spring and Autumn mileage were higher than other years but I have done fewer weights sessions. I am now following Magness' 800m plan for a March peak. After that I will consider the next steps, although I have mapped out a few plans for the coming years.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,623 ✭✭✭dna_leri


    One post a week then 3 come along all at once...

    Did this graph of my PB times using WMA% and IAAF points.
    I think it's pretty clear which one is out of step.

    333561.jpg


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,623 ✭✭✭dna_leri


    Finished the week with one of my favourite sessions.
    Plan was 3x4x200m w/ 75sec rest and 4min rest, 800m pace

    Conditions were good - no wind and fairly dry track.
    As usual I did the first set in flats - in 2:02.7 pace.
    Spikes made the difference on the tight bends on this 330m track (!) and the 2nd and 3rd sets were 2:00.4 and 2:00.2.
    Kept the recoveries pretty much to plan averaging 77s and 4 mins between sets.

    Last time I did these was in June when I averaged 2:03.7 one week before running 2:04.7
    I won’t read too much into one session but it gives me a bit of confidence.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,531 ✭✭✭✭Krusty_Clown


    dna_leri wrote: »
    I think it's pretty clear which one is out of step.
    The 10k?!

    What is WMA%? Is it World Masters Athletics record % or something similar?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,623 ✭✭✭dna_leri


    The 10k?!

    What is WMA%? Is it World Masters Athletics record % or something similar?

    The one really out of step is the 800m - or conversely the rest of them are out of step with this distance. I think that is just a factor of where I have focused my training. There is a general downward trend for longer distances, except 5K which I also trained for prior to setting that PB, and I have not come close to since. So really it tells me nothing except that I do better at distances that I train for.

    WMA% is the World Masters Athletics Age-grade % taken from this table:
    http://www.howardgrubb.co.uk/athletics/wmalookup06.html

    It is similar to the age-grading used by Parkrun as explained here:
    http://support.parkrun.com/hc/en-us/articles/200565263-What-is-age-grading-


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,623 ✭✭✭dna_leri


    Tuesday's pllan was 4x400, 2x400, 1x400 w/ 60sec rest b/t reps, 5min b/t sets (paces- 1mi, just faster than 1mi, 800m)
    The first 4 went ok in 71.4, 70.0, 69.7, 70.6 - target was 70s. I could feel the wind holding me back on the home straight.
    I put on spikes for the next 2 and tried to keep the same effort for 68.3, 66.9s - this time with the wind on the back straight.
    I tried to pick it up for the last one while keeping controlled but all the legs could manage was a 64.6s.
    This was a tough session and I could feel Sunday's workout still in my legs.
    I misread the recoveries as 2mins and 4mins (meant for a different session). The correct recoveries (1&5) might have helped with the last rep but would have slowed the middle ones.

    I did my warm-up and cool-down on grass and dirt path in my new Inov-8 Trailroc 245s. They will take a bit of getting used to. I am told they are 3mm drop where 4mm is the lowest I have ran in before and surprisingly I could feel the pull on my achilles. On compacted surface, they feel firm underfoot, too firm - I could not imagine doing more than a mile or two on the road - not surprising as they do have a rock-plate. On wet grass and muck they felt great, excellent traction. Where normally I avoid these surfaces, I found myself looking for them during this run. I will take them out on the proper trails at the weekend.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 703 ✭✭✭happygoose


    You posted a link to a pdf copy of Magness a few years DNA, ya hardly still have it?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,623 ✭✭✭dna_leri


    happygoose wrote: »
    You posted a link to a pdf copy of Magness a few years DNA, ya hardly still have it?

    I never had a pdf copy of the Magness plan. Krusty did have a published version of his 5K plan

    Try this post:
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=93309898&postcount=36
    or this link:
    http://www.slideshare.net/sjm1368/evolution-of-training

    Another link I posted a while ago was this:
    http://www.scienceofrunning.com/2011/08/factors-affecting-distance-running.html
    which I think formed the basis of his "Science of Running" book which I got here:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,623 ✭✭✭dna_leri


    I was pretty tired this week and was tempted to scale back Thursday's session.
    I thought about it again when I felt a cramp at the top of my right calf after warm-up but it did not get any worse.
    Plan was 3x (600m(3K=1:54), 300m(1mi=52.5), 300m(800=46.5)) [2', 4']
    Times were:
    1. 1:55, 52.1, 49.5
    2. 1:54, 51.7, 48.8
    3. 1:54, 49.6, 47.6
    The 3K pace was good, the mile pace a bit quick and the final 300 at 800 pace was a bit slow each time but on a wet and windy track with no lights, I'll take that.

    Rest day Friday, glad of it, before I clock up some mileage for the weekend.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 558 ✭✭✭ECOLII


    Great session how are you finding the Magness stuff so far?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,623 ✭✭✭dna_leri


    ECOLII wrote: »
    Great session how are you finding the Magness stuff so far?

    In general I am enjoying it. I like the variety of sessions and the variety within the sessions like the 3K to 800m paces in one workout, although sometimes they can be a bit too complicated for me to get right.

    I did a few of these pre-comp workouts last year but from here on they are mostly new so should be fun. Always hard to do pace sessions at this time of the year but good for mental strength.

    I see you are following the 1500/mile plan. I will be watching with interest. Any ideas of your target 1500m time?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 558 ✭✭✭ECOLII


    dna_leri wrote: »
    In general I am enjoying it. I like the variety of sessions and the variety within the sessions like the 3K to 800m paces in one workout, although sometimes they can be a bit too complicated for me to get right.

    I did a few of these pre-comp workouts last year but from here on they are mostly new so should be fun. Always hard to do pace sessions at this time of the year but good for mental strength.

    I see you are following the 1500/mile plan. I will be watching with interest. Any ideas of your target 1500m time?

    I get what you mean about complication of sessions sometimes have to read the session a few times (normally view them as two sessions being mashed together especially for the blends)

    I am following it relatively closely with the view to try and test the waters before I go into 5k/10k training for the summer and begin to incorporate some of that style work for a more complete focus on getting them down.

    Ideally would like to get down sub 4.15 however I only have 2 main races; 1500 @ AAI games and 800 at Leinsters (and if they go well will probably do the 3k at Nationals) so dunno if I will be able to hit that in 1st race out of the blocks but we will see


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,623 ✭✭✭dna_leri


    The last two weeks have not been great for training and the log reads more like a weather report but I have got back on track in the last few days.

    Only one real session was done last week. On Tuesday 13th, the plan called for 3x3x300m at 800m pace. That was not going to happen in the snow and ice. I did a weights session instead and had doms until Thursday when I attempted the 300s. By now the storm force winds had cleared the snow. I did the 300s on the path around the football pitch with the wind mostly at my back and a sharp turn midway. They were around mile pace with 90s recovery and 4 min between sets.

    I got 10 miles in icy conditions on Friday and another 6 on Saturday on the trails. I pulled out of my track session on Sunday and repeated the weights session, this time without any doms - it's amazing how quickly the body adapts to stress.

    This looks like a planned easy week on paper - 1st session was "9x150m at just faster than mile pace w/ 150m walk". Mile pace is 26s per 150m - I did them on a straight stretch of compacted gravel, starting at 25s, working down to 22s. I walked back the first one then changed to a jog back.

    One difference in the Magness plan from what I am used to is that not all sessions are hard days. I always associated sessions with a hard effort and easy/recovery days were at a slower pace. Steve includes a few sessions at faster pace but with lower number of reps and good recovery so the result is an easyish workout.

    Thursday was "250,200,150,100m w/ 5-8min rest, 400m pace". First bit of speed-work in a few weeks. With a 56s 400m time, it's easy to workout the target paces - 35,28,21,14s. Conditions were relatively good - just a bit of wind against me in the first 2 reps and with me for the last 2. Times were 35.6, 28.0, 20.1, 13.6s. Faster in the end but still keeping it controlled (just). Recoveries were 6-7 mins - so a real sprinters session.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,623 ✭✭✭dna_leri


    Almost 30 runners turned up before 8am on Saturday for the group long run.
    I did 10 miles followed by 6 strides.
    A great day for a run.

    Sunday called for a 8mi progression run.
    I started with an easy first 4mi then progression from 7:30 down to 6:50 min/mi for the next 3, followed by 2 mi slow with my son.

    Tuesday 27th
    4x(200, 100m jog, 100m) w/ 4min rest. 200s at 800 pace, 100m kick in.
    I was not sure what pace to use for the 100m kick-in so I started around 400m effort.
    200s were: 30.6, 30.8, 30.4, 30.3s = 2:02.1 800m
    100m kick: 14.3, 14.1, 13.6, 13.2s = 55.2 400m

    I used the full 4 mins recovery but felt pretty good throughout.
    It took until the 3rd rep before I got into a rhythm in the 200s.

    The track was wet but there was not much breeze.
    A nice long cool-down helped me unwind.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,623 ✭✭✭dna_leri


    Just looking ahead on the Magness 800m plan to see what's in store over the next weeks and I see in a few weeks' time he has 3x(400,400) w/ 75sec rest and 5min rest for the first session of the week but he does not say what pace these are at.

    I thought first of all these are at 800m pace but surely not 3 split 800s at race pace ??
    Looking at similar sessions in this phase, they are mostly multi-pace so maybe they are 1st 400m at mile pace and 2nd 400m at 800m pace?

    There is another session 2 weeks later with 2-3x(600,200) w/ 75sec rest and 5min.
    That one I could believe is 600m at race pace followed by 200m kick, at least for 2 reps, but 3 reps, phew.

    I am working off the Kindle edition which has a few typos. Does anyone have the hard copy and could you check if it is the same?
    If not what do you think this session should be, 4 weeks out from a target race with another race planned at the end of the week.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 558 ✭✭✭ECOLII


    dna_leri wrote: »
    Just looking ahead on the Magness 800m plan to see what's in store over the next weeks and I see in a few weeks' time he has 3x(400,400) w/ 75sec rest and 5min rest for the first session of the week but he does not say what pace these are at.

    I thought first of all these are at 800m pace but surely not 3 split 800s at race pace ??
    Looking at similar sessions in this phase, they are mostly multi-pace so maybe they are 1st 400m at mile pace and 2nd 400m at 800m pace?

    There is another session 2 weeks later with 2-3x(600,200) w/ 75sec rest and 5min.
    That one I could believe is 600m at race pace followed by 200m kick, at least for 2 reps, but 3 reps, phew.

    I am working off the Kindle edition which has a few typos. Does anyone have the hard copy and could you check if it is the same?
    If not what do you think this session should be, 4 weeks out from a target race with another race planned at the end of the week.


    I'll check when I get home and have access to it. Looking at them sessions though compared to the ones I am doing in the comp phase of the 1500m plan they seem to be target race pace (that 6/2 session looks like the one on 1500 plan except has slightly longer recoveries so imagine it would be a higher pace? Although even saying that those sessions look really tough off those recoveries


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,623 ✭✭✭dna_leri


    ECOLII wrote: »
    I'll check when I get home and have access to it. Looking at them sessions though compared to the ones I am doing in the comp phase of the 1500m plan they seem to be target race pace (that 6/2 session looks like the one on 1500 plan except has slightly longer recoveries so imagine it would be a higher pace? Although even saying that those sessions look really tough off those recoveries

    Thanks ecolii.

    Looks like an equally cryptic session in wk1 of the 1500m competition phase plan: 3x(500,300 w/ 60sec rest) w/ 4min b/t sets but no pace specified (in my version).


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 558 ✭✭✭ECOLII


    dna_leri wrote: »
    Thanks ecolii.

    Looks like an equally cryptic session in wk1 of the 1500m competition phase plan: 3x(500,300 w/ 60sec rest) w/ 4min b/t sets but no pace specified (in my version).

    Yes I took this as 1500m pace simply because it was a build up over the course of the phase to a key workout of 3*800 @ 1500 so I assume the focus is on building up the distance although I would have assumed the 800m pace stuff would have got closer to 6/7 min between sets seeing as you are effectively running race distance in each set


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,896 ✭✭✭Sacksian


    There's no pace specified in the book's 800m plan for the 3 x (400/400) w/75 sec and 5min rest. I'd say it's closer to 800 than mile pace but 800 pace seems a bit of a stretch and mile pace would be ridiculously slow.

    The previous week has 500 at 800m with a "long rest", but the following week has 2 x (500 at 800m pace, 100m walk, 200m kick in) with 6-8 min rest which seems easier than 3 x (400/400 off 75s and 5mins between sets) if the 400s are at 800m pace, to my mind.

    Actually, I just looked at the specific endurance workout progressions - the 3 x (400,400) is in the "Bottom Up" progression, which means it IS intended as a race pace workout.

    Can't imagine ever being able to do that!

    Next one in the "bottom up" progression is: 2-3 x 600,200 w/75s and 5mins rest.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,288 ✭✭✭Oregano_State


    To me, for the 400/400 session it would only make sense to me as worthwhile if the second 400 in each set was supposed to be quicker than the first.

    For you, D, I would try something like 68-72 for the first, then 60-64 for the second. Maybe go conservatively on the first set, and take it from there.

    I could be completely off the mark. I would say though, that prescribing sessions without percentage effort or similar is a bit pointless!


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,623 ✭✭✭dna_leri


    To me, for the 400/400 session it would only make sense to me as worthwhile if the second 400 in each set was supposed to be quicker than the first.

    For you, D, I would try something like 68-72 for the first, then 60-64 for the second. Maybe go conservatively on the first set, and take it from there.

    I could be completely off the mark. I would say though, that prescribing sessions without percentage effort or similar is a bit pointless!

    Thanks guys for the input.

    OS - I think you are right. The paces you suggest are spot on for my mile/800m which feels right to me. I will probably go for that as a more suitable for me.

    Even the 2 x 600,200 w/75s and 5mins rest would be too much. In the past I would have done 2x600m but failed to hold race pace for the 2nd one.

    I might try and contact Steve Magness see if he gives his opinion.


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