Am I being unreasonable?

Ken79 · 17-12-2014 3:11pm

ec18 wrote: »

no of course not but the assumption should be that an owner occupier was buying as it sounds like the OP is living in the country side from some of their posts.

The point of the guarantee that it would sell quickly is moot, since the OP has said there is a lack of supply in the area. But allowing viewings created this scenario. Allowing viewings in the belief that it would be a slow sale and everything would continue as normal at the reduced rate doesn't match the prudent way the OP comes across

Look, many people buy houses and are happy to have renters there for a while. Who or why was none of my business. Getting a reduced rent to make up for the intrusion into my privacy was.

I could have said no. But then the bank would have been involved. This way they can still keep the bank out of it.

And they will clear their mortgage by the way. Far as I can gather, it's not the mortgage thats the problem, it's the interest rates. Or so I assumed once I heard start mortgages were involved.
But thats only speculation on my part.

17-12-2014 3:11pm

quietsailor wrote: »

You've talked about or alluded to your business several times in the thread op. From those comments I get the feeling a lot of your work is based on the appearance of being an honest person - stuff like; if I can't complete the contract I have to pay someone to do it.

You've also said while the landlord lives abroad there father or father in law lives opposite you.

Do you think a family member of someone your causing stress to is going to sing your praises or are they going to warn people about you. They can tell the absolute truth and still damn you in other people's eyes "yeah they believe in contracts alright - especially when it suits them and they get money out of it, if they can get you over a barrel (your words I believe) they'll take more money" that's what you want to do but if as a customer of yours I'd be very worried to hear that from a local.

You may cause more damage to your business in the long run than good to your bank balance. Most people hate gougers and your even painting yourself as one of those when I read your replies.

Again, let's apply this logic to a tenant asking the landlord to reduce their rent.

If landlord quite rightly refuses, tenant then badmouths landlord around the town about how mean they are by insisting a contract be honoured.

Sounds a bit odd when you put it like that doesn't it?

Ken79 · 17-12-2014 3:12pm

ice.cube wrote: »

Why rent a property on a fixed term 2 year lease to then be hit with fears of repossession 11 months later, it just doesnt add up in my mind.

Thats the question, isn't it?
This free rent is immaterial if they aren't using it to pay the mortgage.

quietsailor · 17-12-2014 3:18pm

Ken79 wrote: »

No, she didn't actually and I never thought to ask.

Do you think she's going to feel in any way obliged to facilitate you in this? 99% of people won't so already you may have caused yourself trouble for when you want to get a mortgage - if your talking about renting your next house then you might not apply for a mortgage in the near future. The landlord will be gone abroad and you'll be left arguing with a bank that it really was rent payments - that could stop a mortgage application and the banks are being very tight on applications now.

I can't multi quote on the phone so in answer to your comment about making sure gossip isn't true - everything I said above is taken from what you typed - so your not going to come across as a decent honourable businessman, rather a cute hoor out for the main chance ie not someone to trust in a business arrangement as if circumstances change you'll use it to your advantage

drumswan · 17-12-2014 3:22pm

quietsailor wrote: »

Do you think she's going to feel in any way obliged to facilitate you in this? 99% of people won't so already you may have caused yourself trouble for when you want to get a mortgage - if your talking about renting your next house then you might not apply for a mortgage in the near future. The landlord will be gone abroad and you'll be left arguing with a bank that it really was rent payments - that could stop a mortgage application and the banks are being very tight on applications now.

There are electronic payment trails to show for a mortgage, not sure what you are talking about.

I can't multi quote on the phone so in answer to your comment about making sure gossip isn't true - everything I said above is taken from what you typed - so your not going to come across as a decent honourable businessman, rather a cute hoor out for the main chance ie not someone to trust in a business arrangement as if circumstances change you'll use it to your advantage

More of this karma bull. People just cant bear to see an uppity tenant looking to assert their rights, and keep coming up with increasingly ludicrous scenarios in which the tenant will pay dearly for it all. Its like bloody Tess of the D'Urbervilles in here.

bren2002 · 17-12-2014 3:23pm

I hope you are fully tax compliant if your landlord lives abroad. You could be stung for a large tax bill if not. The landlord could also use this as a tactic against you.

By the way, to answer your question - yes you are being unreasonable.

quietsailor · 17-12-2014 3:23pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Again, let's apply this logic to a tenant asking the landlord to reduce their rent.

If landlord quite rightly refuses, tenant then badmouths landlord around the town about how mean they are by insisting a contract be honoured.

Sounds a bit odd when you put it like that doesn't it?

Nope. Doesn't sound odd at all. I'd say it'd happen in most cases. The thing is we're not talking about most cases - we're talking about one specific case, the OPs, and if their business depends on the appearance of complete trust and decency this looks bad for the OP. Look at the thread title - even the OP thinks what they're doing doesn't look right. Otherwise this thread wouldn't exist would it?

Ken79 · 17-12-2014 3:28pm

quietsailor wrote: »

Do you think she's going to feel in any way obliged to facilitate you in this? 99% of people won't so already you may have caused yourself trouble for when you want to get a mortgage - if your talking about renting your next house then you might not apply for a mortgage in the near future. The landlord will be gone abroad and you'll be left arguing with a bank that it really was rent payments - that could stop a mortgage application and the banks are being very tight on applications now.

We have a contract, we have a paper trail with the same amount going out every month and we have confirmation on numerous occasions that she received the rent.
I'm not worried about getting a mortgage - my wife is in a very secure job, we have cash and I'm starting to do quite well and building a good reputation for honesty and hard work.

All I need now is for house prices to drop to a level or my deposit to increase to a level where I am satisfied that I can handled interest rate variations going forward.

Feck sake, we even paid for our wedding in cash and thats coming out of a few bad years. We'll do fine because we manage our affairs.

I can't multi quote on the phone so in answer to your comment about making sure gossip isn't true - everything I said above is taken from what you typed - so your not going to come across as a decent honourable businessman, rather a cute hoor out for the main chance ie not someone to trust in a business arrangement as if circumstances change you'll use it to your advantage

To be honest if you think I'm being a cute hoor then you are either very naive, wholly subservient or you are approaching this from a biased perspective.

If you actually read my contributions you will see that I have gone over and above what I need to do. They are imposing a deadline which will put me under serious pressure and I'm not even going for what I can get - I'm going for what I think is fair and reasonable and which won't hurt them in any way. A few months potential free rent on a house that will be empty anyway pending a sale and a deadline that isn't far enough away to perturb most buyers with an option to reduce that deadline.

If I was gouging I'd ask for and get far more.

_Kaiser_ · 17-12-2014 3:32pm

Just to pick up on a few points from early in the thread...

Teyla Emmagan wrote: »

I don't know if your landlord is in the right or not, but I feel very sorry having to deal with you OP. You seem to be mostly interested in just lining your pockets.

To be fair to the OP, there's a lot of landlords out to do exactly the same - ESPECIALLY at the moment!

The OP has been a model tenant by all accounts and even helped the LL out with viewings and even advance rent in the past to be flexible which is a lot more than most tenants will do.

The OP may seem "harsh" but in reality he's just being professional rather than going along with the usual "make it up as we go" approach that passes as renting (and pretty much everything else!) in this country.

Why shouldn't he make a few quid out of it? He's the one being massively inconvenienced and who'll have to stump up deposits, moving expenses, utility connection charges/deposits etc etc as a result of this.

D3PO wrote: »

Right you just answered your own question. Your trying to screw somebody in a vulnerable position for as much as you can get. Yep that's pretty unreasonable.

Karmas a bitch just remember that.

Karma shmarma! :pac:

In the real world there are plenty of tenants who are being screwed over at the moment by opportunistic landlords who see a chance to make a quick buck in the current property bubble.

Bottom line, the LL is losing a house, the OP and his partner are losing their home. There's no comparison really and it's only fair they should have enough time to find somewhere else. 8 weeks coming up to Christmas is nowhere near enough time in the current market.

Ken79 · 17-12-2014 3:33pm

quietsailor wrote: »

Nope. Doesn't sound odd at all. I'd say it'd happen in most cases. The thing is we're not talking about most cases - we're talking about one specific case, the OPs, and if their business depends on the appearance of complete trust and decency this looks bad for the OP. Look at the thread title - even the OP thinks what they're doing doesn't look right. Otherwise this thread wouldn't exist would it?

Actually it would because it has been very useful to explore the potential avenues of criticism and to help me view this from a few different angles.

None of them have really held any water though and the most interesting criticism turned out to be from a guy who thought I was asking far more than I am. It even transpired he would have asked for far more.

At the end of the I'm only looking after my family and anyone who objects to that probably views renters as parasites anyway.

ice.cube · 17-12-2014 3:34pm

bren2002 wrote:

I hope you are fully tax compliant if your landlord lives abroad. You could be stung for a large tax bill if not. The landlord could also use this as a tactic against you.

Can you explain this further please?

Ken79 · 17-12-2014 3:37pm

bren2002 wrote: »

I hope you are fully tax compliant if your landlord lives abroad. You could be stung for a large tax bill if not. The landlord could also use this as a tactic against you.

By the way, to answer your question - yes you are being unreasonable.

Good question. We don't deduct tax but we pay into an irish bank account and her "agent" slash father in law who handles the day to day lives across the road.

Could we be stung? If so, do I have to start witholding rent to cover the tax bill?

bren2002 · 17-12-2014 3:37pm

If your landlord lives abroad you are required to withhold 20% of the rent and pay it directly to revenue. You then forward the receipt to the landlord.

If you pay rent to an agent you don't need to do this. But if you pay directly to the landlords account, even an Irish one, you are liable for the tax bill.

bren2002 · 17-12-2014 3:39pm

I'm using a phone so cant post a working link.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/renting_a_home/tax_relief_for_tenants.html

Ahh the link does work!

Mezcita · 17-12-2014 3:39pm

ice.cube wrote: »

Can you explain this further please?

For non resident landlords, it's the tenant's responsibility to withhold the portion of the tax due and pay it directly to the revenue.

"Where rents are paid directly to a person whose usual place of abode is outside
the State, the tenant is obliged to deduct income tax @ the standard rate from
the payment (section 1041 TCA 1997). The tenant then gives the landlord a
certificate of the tax deducted on form R 185. The landlord is entitled to claim
relief for expenses which are usually allowed in arriving at the rental profit
and may be entitled to a proportion of personal allowances. Note: Payment
into a bank account in the name of the landlord is payment directly to the
landlord."

drumswan · 17-12-2014 3:39pm

Ken79 wrote: »

Good question. We don't deduct tax but we pay into an irish bank account and her "agent" slash father in law who handles the day to day lives across the road.

Could we be stung? If so, do I have to start witholding rent to cover the tax bill?

If you are paying directly to a landlord who lives abroad you should be withholding a portion (20%) of the rent for revenue. You should contact them and ask, they are helpful about such things.

Ken79 · 17-12-2014 3:40pm

bren2002 wrote: »

If your landlord lives abroad you are required to withhold 20% of the rent and pay it directly to revenue. You then forward the receipt to the landlord.

If you pay rent to an agent you don't need to do this. But if you pay directly to the landlords account, even an Irish one, you are liable for the tax bill.

Okay. Thats not something I was aware of so I'm going to have to look into it.
Thanks for that. Better to know than to be ignorant.

_Kaiser_ · 17-12-2014 3:41pm

bren2002 wrote: »

If your landlord lives abroad you are required to withhold 20% of the rent and pay it directly to revenue. You then forward the receipt to the landlord.

If you pay rent to an agent you don't need to do this. But if you pay directly to the landlords account, even an Irish one, you are liable for the tax bill.

Which just seems ridiculous to me - why should a tenant have any interest or responsibility for a LL's tax affairs on a property they're only renting. Their job is to pay rent as agreed, not act as a tax collector/auditor.

It's kinda ironic considering the reaction the notion of LL's being responsible for tenant's IW compliance got... and rightly so. The utility bill is the responsibility of the person using the service.

But that's me.. we all know Ireland has to be "different"

bren2002 · 17-12-2014 3:44pm

So assuming your rent is €1,200 pm and you've been renting for 2 years. You owe revenue €5,760.

Correct as appropriate.

drumswan · 17-12-2014 3:46pm

bren2002 wrote: »

So assuming your rent is €1,200 pm and you've been renting for 2 years. You owe revenue €5,760.

Correct as appropriate.

Nonsense, revenue dont look for the money retrospectively. Ill bet the OP has a lease with an Irish address for the landlord too.

Stella11 · 17-12-2014 3:47pm

You are being unfair.. i cant believe you are asking that question.. its obvious..shes in a really difficult situation and you are trying to profit from it.. unbelievable.

BarryD · 17-12-2014 3:47pm

Ken79 wrote: »

You can't help gossip. You can make sure there's no truth in the gossip.

Yes but gossip is not objective in it's nature - it's entirely subjective. Once people start bad mouthing you, it's very difficult to control the spread of it. Depends on your standing in the area - whether you are a native from a respected family or if you a 'blow in'.

Ken79 wrote: »

Okay. Thats not something I was aware of so I'm going to have to look into it. Thanks for that. Better to know than to be ignorant.

You see, the LL in this case was clearly being a bit casual in not implementing this. It's impossible to tell whether this was deliberate or not. There are undoubtedly some people (many?) in situations like this who might like a nice handy source of tax free income.

bren2002 · 17-12-2014 3:47pm

drumswan wrote: »

Nonsense, revenue dont look for the money retrospectively. Ill bet the OP has a lease with an Irish address for the landlord too.

Do you reckon they don't look for retrospective payment?

ec18 · 17-12-2014 3:48pm

bren2002 wrote: »

So assuming your rent is €1,200 pm and you've been renting for 2 years. You owe revenue €5,760.

Correct as appropriate.

so is this money he'll have to pay and try and work out some refund from the landlord? or is the onus purely on him?

_Kaiser_ · 17-12-2014 3:49pm

drumswan wrote: »

Nonsense, revenue dont look for the money retrospectively. Ill bet the OP has a lease with an Irish address for the landlord too.

To be fair it is an interesting point though..

I don't know where my landlord lives although I know it's in Dublin. If they decide to move abroad in the morning and didn't tell me, how would I know?

Does the tenant get a commission/tax credit for this collector role? (don't worry, I know the answer!

)

Wonder what'd happen in such a scenario though.

bren2002 · 17-12-2014 3:49pm

ec18 wrote: »

so is this money he'll have to pay and try and work out some refund from the landlord? or is the onus purely on him?

You'd have to ask revenue.

drumswan · 17-12-2014 3:50pm

bren2002 wrote: »

Do you reckon they don't look for retrospective payment?

I know it, Ive been through that situation where a landlord decided to emigrate without telling me.

The act even makes provision for it:

The obligation to deduct tax on payment of rents does not
make the tenant a chargeable person (section 950 TCA
1997).[45.1.4]
2
2. Payments of this nature are not charges on income. Taxed or
other income cannot be regarded as covering these
payments.
2.2 Residential lettings
In the case of residential lettings, tenants may not be aware of their
obligation to deduct tax. This can occur either because the tenants are
unaware that the landlord is resident abroad or because the tenants are
unaware of the obligation to deduct tax when making payment to such
a landlord.

I had no problem going to revenue and saying 'Ive just become aware of this, how should I proceed?"

_Kaiser_ · 17-12-2014 3:51pm

Stella11 wrote: »

You are being unfair.. i cant believe you are asking that question.. its obvious..shes in a really difficult situation and you are trying to profit from it.. unbelievable.

Flip it around...

Look at the threads on this forum right now about tenants who have just been hit with significant and unexpected rent increases by their landlords and who may have to move out because of it.

Is that not the LL profiting from the current market? Is it still unfair or just good business sense?

bren2002 · 17-12-2014 3:53pm

drumswan wrote: »

I know it, Ive been through that situation where a landlord decided to emigrate without telling me.

The act even makes provision for it:

Interested to get first hand experience. But in this case the tenant does know the landlord lives abroad.

Ken79 · 17-12-2014 3:53pm

bren2002 wrote: »

So assuming your rent is €1,200 pm and you've been renting for 2 years. You owe revenue €5,760.

Correct as appropriate.

No, my rent is only €750 and we have been renting for 13 months so it's be about €1800. So there'll be no rent for her for the next few months by the looks of it.

Would we have been liable for that or would she? It's her tax after all, not mine.

REXER · 17-12-2014 3:53pm

cursai wrote: »

Annnnnnnd I'm done with this thread!

Bye, see ya.

_Kaiser_ · 17-12-2014 3:54pm

Ken79 wrote: »

Would we have been liable for that or would she? It's her tax after all, not mine.

Based on the above it seems it's your problem - as mad as that seems to me!

Ken79 · 17-12-2014 3:54pm

drumswan wrote: »

I know it, Ive been through that situation where a landlord decided to emigrate without telling me.

The act even makes provision for it:

I had no problem going to revenue and saying 'Ive just become aware of this, how should I proceed?"

Thank you for that. Was worried for a minute.

17-12-2014 3:55pm

bren2002 wrote: »

Interested to get first hand experience. But in this case the tenant does know the landlord lives abroad.

"or because the tenants are
unaware of the obligation to deduct tax when making payment to such
a landlord"

bren2002 · 17-12-2014 3:55pm

Ken79 wrote: »

No, my rent is only €750 and we have been renting for 13 months so it's be about €1800. So there'll be no rent for her for the next few months by the looks of it.

Would we have been liable for that or would she? It's her tax after all, not mine.

You're liable.

drumswan · 17-12-2014 3:56pm

bren2002 wrote: »

Interested to get first hand experience. But in this case the tenant does know the landlord lives abroad.

True, but he wasnt aware of his obligation to hold back rent which is accounted for in the act, where it is also explicitly stated that the tenant is not a chargeable person. If he has a lease with the landlords Irish address this further confuses things.

He should contact revenue for assistance, they are not out to screw people on this one.

17-12-2014 3:57pm

bren2002 wrote: »

You're liable.

You can't read

bren2002 · 17-12-2014 3:58pm

Oh, play the ball not the man. Posting on a phone so its slower.

drumswan · 17-12-2014 3:59pm

Deleted User wrote: »

You can't read

Its not that clear to be fair, the tenant has an 'obligation to collect' but is 'not a chargeable person'. Hardly clear, it suggests that the tenant has an obligation to withhold the rent but no action can be taken against them if they dont.

BarryD · 17-12-2014 4:08pm

Ken79 wrote: »

Thank you for that. Was worried for a minute.

But you do know the landlord is abroad - going by your own moral compass and desire to keep things right & proper, then surely you are obliged to see if this tax has been paid and pay it if necessary.

It reads a bit like the 'Withholding tax for professional fees' etc which you'll possibly be familiar with depending on the nature of your business.

dialemma · 17-12-2014 4:08pm

"That being said, I'm going to extract a few bob from the situation as the lease she wants to buy me out of has a value - I just don't want to go overboard."

Merry Christmas, you're all heart.

Stella11 · 17-12-2014 4:10pm

Ken79 wrote: »

No, my rent is only €750 and we have been renting for 13 months so it's be about €1800.

do you expect sympathy for the fact she has been so decent to you in charging you so little? thats your problem not hers.. id say her father will support her and not the likes of you..mercenary lowest of the low

do the right thing. Move out within the eight weeks.. If you dont i hope you get sued and she gets a big judgment against you and noone wants to ever rent to you again..

17-12-2014 4:12pm

BarryD wrote: »

But you do know the landlord is abroad - going by your own moral compass and desire to keep things right & proper, then surely you are obliged to see if this tax has been paid and pay it if necessary.

It reads a bit like the 'Withholding tax for professional fees' etc which you'll possibly be familiar with depending on the nature of your business.

I think he's pointed out he's happy to do that.

Not sure the landlord will thank him though....

BarryD · 17-12-2014 4:15pm

Don't get me wrong - I sympathise to an extent. We were in a similar situation twenty years ago with a landlord who had emigrated to Australia, decided not to come back and wanted to sell the house we were letting from them. Our child was 1 etc. I was running a small business and so on.

So we looked around and moved in due course, paying full rent up to time we left. The only disagreeable part was trying to recover the deposit but in retrospect it was hardly worth the hassle.

Ken79 · 17-12-2014 4:16pm

Stella11 wrote: »

Ken79 wrote: »

No, my rent is only €750 and we have been renting for 13 months so it's be about €1800.

do you expect sympathy for the fact she has been so decent to you in charging you so little? thats your problem not hers.. id say her father will support her and not the likes of you..mercenary lowest of the low

do the right thing. Move out within the eight weeks.. If you dont i hope you get sued and she gets a big judgment against you and noone wants to ever rent to you again..

Such a low rent? Well if she didn't like it she shouldn't have agreed to it. It's the market rate around here anyway.

The right thing is to uphold the lease by the way. She can't and she needs me to let her off it. I have made the decent offer of moving as soon as I can and at no charge but thats not good enough for her.

So she tried to strong arm me with an illegal eviction and I'm in he wrong for replying in a solid but legally sound manner? Get real with yourself.

zefer · 17-12-2014 4:16pm

I'd imagine the landlord doesn't want the revenue involved either as they haven't registered with the PRTB, so I wouldn't think the OP would have to worry about the landlord going to revenue..

Ken79 · 17-12-2014 4:16pm

Stella11 wrote: »

do you expect sympathy for the fact she has been so decent to you in charging you so little? thats your problem not hers.. id say her father will support her and not the likes of you..mercenary lowest of the low

do the right thing. Move out within the eight weeks.. If you dont i hope you get sued and she gets a big judgment against you and noone wants to ever rent to you again..

Such a low rent? Well if she didn't like it she shouldn't have agreed to it. It's the market rate around here anyway.

The right thing is to uphold the lease by the way. She can't and she needs me to let her off it. I have made the decent offer of moving as soon as I can and at no charge but thats not good enough for her.

So she tried to strong arm me with an illegal eviction and I'm in he wrong for replying in a solid but legally sound manner? Get real with yourself.

Ken79 · 17-12-2014 4:17pm

Stella11 wrote: »

do you expect sympathy for the fact she has been so decent to you in charging you so little? thats your problem not hers.. id say her father will support her and not the likes of you..mercenary lowest of the low

do the right thing. Move out within the eight weeks.. If you dont i hope you get sued and she gets a big judgment against you and noone wants to ever rent to you again..

Such a low rent? Well if she didn't like it she shouldn't have agreed to it. It's the market rate around here anyway. Especially after we negotiated and were willing to walk away.

The right thing is to uphold the lease by the way. She can't and she needs me to let her off it. I have made the decent offer of moving as soon as I can and at no charge but thats not good enough for her.

So she tried to strong arm me with an illegal eviction and I'm in he wrong for replying in a solid but legally sound manner? Get real with yourself.

Ken79 · 17-12-2014 4:18pm

never mind

Stella11 · 17-12-2014 4:18pm

its not an illegal eviction. decent offer.. theres nothing decent about you.. your real username must be SHYLOCK

Am I being unreasonable?

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