Most Americans believe torture can be justified - poll

Tonyandthewhale · 17-12-2014 3:32pm

Yeah_Right wrote: »

I love the tired line - torture doesn't work. Studies show it doesn't work. Get real. Such BS. It does work if done right. And those people aren't taking part in any studies.

How does it work?

Yeah_Right · 17-12-2014 3:34pm

daUbiq wrote: »

Are you an Amerikan?

No. I just think torture has a real and genuine benefit. If it's done right. Everyone breaks and they can be a fountain of information.

Philo Beddoe · 17-12-2014 3:36pm

Yeah_Right wrote: »

No. I just think torture has a real and genuine benefit. If it's done right. Everyone breaks and they can be a fountain of information.

So if I torture you and you eventually break and confess to your involvement in the 9/11 attacks, the torture worked?

daUbiq · 17-12-2014 3:37pm

Yeah_Right wrote: »

I love the tired line - torture doesn't work. Studies show it doesn't work. Get real. Such BS. It does work if done right. And those people aren't taking part in any studies.

I'm gonna fix this for you, Mr Logical.

I love the tired line - torture does work. Studies show it does work. Get real. Such BS... It doesn't work. And these people aren't taking part in any studies because they know it does not work.

Tonyandthewhale · 17-12-2014 3:38pm

irish_dave_83 wrote: »

Well to say it doesn't/never prevented the death of innocent people is a stretch. Its not full proof, far from it. If the information supplied may not always be reliable, but it has to be corroborated against other inteligence information/recon to prove its unreliablity. Absence information is always worse for any investigation.

So you're saying false, misleading information is better than no information? Then why do intelligence agencies all over the world and throughout history invest so much time and energy in spreading mis-information to fool their opponents and rivals?

ShowMeTheCash · 17-12-2014 3:39pm

Yeah_Right wrote: »

No. I just think torture has a real and genuine benefit. If it's done right. Everyone breaks and they can be a fountain of information.

LOL - I think this is actually a quote from a movie???

Perhaps you are not getting it.

Say you are correct and someone gives information that is accurate.
But that is not how it works, a number of people are rounded up.
Let's say one of these suspects give accurate information as they actually had information to give the others give false information as they just want the torture to stop, now you have a load of false and perhaps accurate information.

The reason it does not work is not because people cannot tell the truth it does not work because people who do not know anything will say anything to get the torture to stop, thus rendering the information as a whole pretty useless.

ScumLord · 17-12-2014 3:40pm

Yeah_Right wrote: »

I love the tired line - torture doesn't work. Studies show it doesn't work. Get real. Such BS. It does work if done right. And those people aren't taking part in any studies.

How would someone know if they're doing it right? The person can always lie and send you on a wild goose chase wasting your time. Why does the FBI say it doesn't work? where is all the evidence that torture works? If it was out there the Americans would be highlighting it to show they were justified in their actions.

ShowMeTheCash wrote: »

Just so you know, Chuck Norris's dreams are reality!

What if he dreams about someone stronger than he is?

Tonyandthewhale · 17-12-2014 3:41pm

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Everyone breaks and they can be a fountain of information.

Yeah but is the information based on reality? Is it relevant? If you've got the necessary sources to corroborate evidence provided through torture then you've probably got enough information to skip the whole torture step. And if corroboration doesn't work then you've been lied to, your existing information isn't as reliable as you thought it was or you've cut off the toes of the wrong man.

Who are you going to torture to figure out which one it was?

Yeah_Right · 17-12-2014 3:41pm

[QUOTE=Tonyandthewhale;93480753

2. Why are you trying to prevent a terrorist attack? Because some terrorists hate you/your country? Why do they hate you? Possibly because you bomb them and torture them. Stop this and they might hate you less, continue this and they'll hate you more. There are other factors at play but there's a reason groups like Al Qaeda aren't targeting neutral countries with perfect human rights records who only ever use their militaries for peace-keeping operations and helping out with natural disasters.[/QUOTE]

This is brilliant!! I am giving you a standing ovation. This is the stupidest thing I have read all year.

Be nice to religious extremists and they will hate you less. (They still want to kill you for being a non-believer and an infidel but they hate you less).

ShowMeTheCash · 17-12-2014 3:41pm

ScumLord wrote: »

How would someone know if they're doing it right? The person can always lie and send you on a wild goose chase wasting your time. Why does the FBI say it doesn't work? where is all the evidence that torture works? If it was out there the Americans would be highlighting it to show they were justified in their actions.

What if he dreams about someone stronger than he is?

You would need to open a new thread on a Paradox!

UnknownSpecies · 17-12-2014 3:42pm

It's Always Sunny gets it right...

mikom · 17-12-2014 3:45pm

ShowMeTheCash wrote: »

Just so you know, Chuck Norris's dreams are reality!

ScumLord wrote: »

What if he dreams about someone stronger than he is?

Just so as you know........Freddy Krueger once came to Chuck Norris in a dream, now Freddy sleeps with a night light.

irish_dave_83 · 17-12-2014 3:46pm

Tonyandthewhale wrote: »

So you're saying false, misleading information is better than no information? Then why do intelligence agencies all over the world and throughout history invest so much time and energy in spreading mis-information to fool their opponents and rivals?

Well yes, you seem to think that if false information is given they let the detainee go? If anything i can imagine that it is worse for them if it is found out to be misleading/false.

Absence of infromation does not create any other lines of investigation, misleading information brings to you back to the source to try again. That would be common sense.

I'm not some advocate for mass torture, I just dont think it should be removed as a one of the many tools in intelligence gathering.

mikom · 17-12-2014 3:49pm

irish_dave_83 wrote: »

Well yes, you seem to think that if false information is given they let the detainee go? If anything i can imagine that it is worse for them if it is found out to be misleading/false.

Absence of infromation does not create any other lines of investigation, misleading information brings to you back to the source to try again. That would be common sense.

I'm not some advocate for mass torture, I just dont think it should be removed as a one of the many tools in intelligence gathering.

False information costs lives.......

A Georgia SWAT team shot and killed an armed homeowner during a September 24 drug raid sparked by the word of a self-confessed meth addict and burglar who had robbed the property the previous day. No drugs were found. David Hooks, 59, becomes the 34th person to die in US domestic drug law enforcement operations so far this year.

http://stopthedrugwar.org/chronicle/2014/oct/04/georgia_homeowner_killed_fruitle

ShowMeTheCash · 17-12-2014 3:49pm

Yeah_Right wrote: »

This is brilliant!! I am giving you a standing ovation. This is the stupidest thing I have read all year.

Be nice to religious extremists and they will hate you less. (They still want to kill you for being a non-believer and an infidel but they hate you less).

Oh I have read much more idiotic statements!

So you believe everyone ever bombed by the US was a religious extremist?
You don't believe innocent family's get caught up in conflicts?

This is a wind up right??
You got me I have been trolled

c_man · 17-12-2014 3:53pm

Philo Beddoe wrote: »

So if I torture you and you eventually break and confess to your involvement in the 9/11 attacks, the torture worked?

Tbh, to the pro-torture crowd* your accusation is probably proof enough.

*Jesus Christ, can't believe that's a thing.

Magico Gonzalez · 17-12-2014 3:55pm

Amazing, the torturers confess that the information they gleened from their subjects was worthless and yet still people clamour for more torturing.

The best way to turn anyone is to spot (even better, create) a weakness, offer them a solution to their problem in exchange for verifiable information. Sticking stuff up their exit hole and making them believe they are being drowned is going to put them in such a state of confusion that they are going to have difficulties distinguishing between reality and what they need to make up to stay alive. Also, they know that if they talk their own "side" will probably not be referencing through current human right's law as they chop off every extremity they have before killing them and their family for talking.

Need to create a way out for the victim.

ShowMeTheCash · 17-12-2014 3:58pm

irish_dave_83 wrote: »

Well yes, you seem to think that if false information is given they let the detainee go? If anything i can imagine that it is worse for them if it is found out to be misleading/false.

Absence of infromation does not create any other lines of investigation, misleading information brings to you back to the source to try again. That would be common sense.

I'm not some advocate for mass torture, I just dont think it should be removed as a one of the many tools in intelligence gathering.

I do not rate the American way of doing things however - even they had concluded that the information provided is not reliable and is the reason it does not work.

So I need to ask "I just dont think it should be removed"... Is that it? You just don't think it should be removed, your own opinion with nothing really to back it up?

SeantheMan · 17-12-2014 4:00pm

Tzardine wrote: »

Absolutely it is justifiable.

It's the reality of the world we live in. If the torture of a person leads to the prevention of killing of innocent people then what is the problem.

Nice, law obiding people rarely get tortured.

Really ?
How many people held...and still being held in Guantanemo were convicted ?

With the Taliban five headed for freedom, the cleared prisoners now make up more than 52 percent of the 149 detainees left there. Has there ever existed another prison where more than half the prisoners were told they had been cleared to leave but they could not go?

You can bet most if not all of these were tortured.

I hope you get to experience some form of it one day, see if you have the same opinion afterwards

irish_dave_83 · 17-12-2014 4:04pm

ShowMeTheCash wrote: »

I do not rate the American way of doing things however - even they had concluded that the information provided is not reliable and is the reason it does not work.

So I need to ask "I just dont think it should be removed"... Is that it? You just don't think it should be removed, your own opinion with nothing really to back it up?

Actually the CIA beleive it was integral, a committee disagreed. Its not as clear cut as you make out. Also we were asked for our opinion from the OP.

ScumLord · 17-12-2014 4:06pm

Magico Gonzalez wrote: »

Amazing, the torturers confess that the information they gleened from their subjects was worthless and yet still people clamour for more torturing.

Obviously those torturers are doing it wrong, they need to find the secret society of torturers that are able to know who has the information even before they start torturing and torture people in such a way that they tell the torturers the truth.

ShowMeTheCash · 17-12-2014 4:08pm

irish_dave_83 wrote: »

Actually the CIA beleive it was integral, a committee disagreed. Its not as clear cut as you make out. Also we were asked for our opinion from the OP.

Hey you are entitled to your opinion like everyone else, I was just trying to work out if it had any substance.

ShowMeTheCash · 17-12-2014 4:09pm

irish_dave_83 wrote: »

Actually the CIA beleive it was integral, a committee disagreed. Its not as clear cut as you make out. Also we were asked for our opinion from the OP.

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2014/dec/16/cia-torture-report-physicians-human-rights-report

I like this report.

They are now looking at Health Care professionals that helped the CIA and may be looking to charge them with War Crimes!

Magico Gonzalez · 17-12-2014 4:09pm

ScumLord wrote: »

Obviously those torturers are doing it wrong, they need to find the secret society of torturers that are able to know who has the information even before they start torturing and torture people in such a way that they tell the torturers the truth.

In other words, shove more stuff up more people's bumholes.

Tonyandthewhale · 17-12-2014 4:10pm

Yeah_Right wrote: »

This is brilliant!! I am giving you a standing ovation. This is the stupidest thing I have read all year.

Be nice to religious extremists and they will hate you less. (They still want to kill you for being a non-believer and an infidel but they hate you less).

Well the thing is very few people are religious extremists who think all non-believers are infidels who deserve only forced conversion or slaughter. What leads people to become like that is political disenfranchisement (ie no other options other than the the AK-47 or the suicide bomb) and a belief that they're in the right because their enemies (the US for example) are guilty of indiscriminate bombings, murder, torture and illegal arrest/detainment without trial.
If you look at countries that have successfully countered insurgency, guerilla war, terrorism or even organised crime you'll see an approach which combines measured use of force with strategies that promote close relations with the local population which in turn cuts off the opposition from it's base of support and pool of potential recruits and open up options for diplomatic recourse and political representation.
Look at the British response during the Malay emergency, Australian tactics during Vietnam, various French interventions in Sub-Saharan Africa, Northern Ireland even (the IRA and UDA didn't stop fighting because the authorities tortured or murdered them out of existence, it was because the local population they were supposed to be representing got sick of them and the politicians came to the table).
Even the Americans realise this with their 'hearts and minds' campaign and the billions of dollars of aid they've funneled into places like Iraq and Afghanistan. It's just that corruption on the part of their local allies, political bull**** and questionable military tactics (mass bombing and stuff like torture) undermines them of late.

Jawgap · 17-12-2014 4:17pm

Yeah_Right wrote: »

This is brilliant!! I am giving you a standing ovation. This is the stupidest thing I have read all year.

Be nice to religious extremists and they will hate you less. (They still want to kill you for being a non-believer and an infidel but they hate you less).

I don't think you've heard the expression Ten Dollar Taliban - actual religious extremists are both a minority group and are not homogeneous. Most of the shooting done in Afghanistan was by "Ten Dollar Taliban" or "Taliban for the Day" - 'ordinary' guys just trying to make a few quid by taking pot shots at ISAF.

Going around and kicking their doors in - violating their homes - was the quickest way to send them into the Taliban on a more permanent basis.

Grabbing guys and torturing them just confirms the stories put about - treating people with a bit of compassion knocks them back on their heals and gives the interrogator the advantage because that doesn't conform to the narrative they've been sold and that forms the basis for their beliefs and justification for their violence.

BuilderPlumber · 17-12-2014 4:35pm

Tonyandthewhale wrote: »

Some problems with this:
1. Torture has been shown to be ineffective. People will supply information to get the torture to stop even if they have to make it up. Even if somehow you KNOW that the suspect has useful information there's no strong incentive to provide useful information. He just has to provide information that's close enough to the truth to make you happy for awhile and he gets a reprieve from your horribleness. You might figure out later that he lied when the information doesn't match facts on the ground and you might punish him for that but so what, you've already been torturing you, he already hates you, ****ing with you is revenge and once you've sunken to the level of torture he knows this isn't going in the direction of a fair trial and a reasonable sentence in a clean prison cell. He's ****ed either way and has nothing to lose.

2. Why are you trying to prevent a terrorist attack? Because some terrorists hate you/your country? Why do they hate you? Possibly because you bomb them and torture them. Stop this and they might hate you less, continue this and they'll hate you more. There are other factors at play but there's a reason groups like Al Qaeda aren't targeting neutral countries with perfect human rights records who only ever use their militaries for peace-keeping operations and helping out with natural disasters.

To answer part 1: of course, this is why excessive torture does not work. Some will use it to merely get a confession, get results and to hell with the truth.

Part 2 of course is deeper. Terrorism is not justified in any circumstance and should be stopped. But of course it is a result of poor foreign policy decisions. We are well aware that fascist 'Islam' and its terrorists were and are a direct result of both positive and negative Western foreign policy. The West armed and trained the future Taliban and al Qaeda. The West merely used the Middle East as an oil resource and cared little if the people are under tyrant's rules. Also, the West has bombed Iraq and other places and killed many innocent people.

Yet, the other end of that argument. Didn't the West treat other places worse than they did Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan (pre 2001), etc. Why do we not see Vietnamese terrorism? Or Serbian terrorism? Not many native Iraqis or Iranians either are directly involved in anti-West terror. Al Qaeda and ISIS are mostly foreigners from the Arab peninsula and Syria with a minority from Iraq. Most of the 9/11 hijackers came from countries the US has never attacked.

To sum up: of course, the West has done awful things like all states and power blocs. But those directly affected as said never really resorted to terrorism. Those who do use others' misfortune to spread hate and take over. The likes of ISIS and al Qaeda would still be dangerous even if there was no poor US foreign policy. They'd find another hatred and are born killers.

DeadHand · 17-12-2014 5:05pm

ShowMeTheCash wrote: »

You are really stretching here but America was involved in the Russian Civil war and Spanish civial wars happened more in the early 1900s...

I stretched nothing, I stayed within the timeline you set yourself ie 10 decades.

OK maybe they were not involved in every conflict

Yes. You were spouting nonsense. It's good you realise it now.

Slot Machine · 17-12-2014 5:12pm

Yeah_Right wrote: »

I love the tired line - torture doesn't work. Studies show it doesn't work. Get real. Such BS. It does work if done right. And those people aren't taking part in any studies.

Yeah, I really hate it when facts contradict what I'm saying, too.

DoYouEvenLift · 17-12-2014 5:15pm

I felt terrible during the torture segment in GTA V so I'd be appalled in real life.

Most Americans believe torture can be justified - poll

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