Most Americans believe torture can be justified - poll

elefant

irish_dave_83 wrote: »

if they torture a known member of a terrorist organisation and find that he does not have any information, that in itself is information gained.

As a previous poster said innocent people do not get tortured, and lets not be naive - if a US operative was captured I have little doubt that they would be tortured also.

This is worrying logic.

DeadHand

Torture is an inherently barbaric act regardless of who is carrying it out and who is suffering it. It should not be practiced by any person or state that claims to be civilised. It's an affront to the basic values of humanity.

It's ineffective and often counter productive. The vast majority of human beings under the duress of torture will eagerly admit to being the Virgin Mary.

irish_dave_83

elefant wrote: »

This is worrying logic.

How so? Whats your issue with it?

suicide_circus

Most Americans also think that the world is about 7000 years old and that God made it in 7 days. So much for what most Americans think..

DeadHand

LucidLife wrote: »

There is a saying 'War is God's way of teachings Americans geography'. An American told me this while I lived in America

That's amazing.

I have no idea what it has to do with my post though.

elefant

irish_dave_83 wrote: »

How so? Whats your issue with it?

You reckon torture is justifiable even in cases when the person doesn't have anything of value to offer in terms of information? Doesn't that seem in any way inherently wrong to you?

We think this guy is bad= We can do whatever we want to this guy

edit: And I have no idea what 'well an American would get tortured if he was captured' has to do with it at all?

Timberrrrrrrr

irish_dave_83 wrote: »

Torture itself is justifiable if managed responsibly. If it prevents the death of innocents then I see the justification.
The question of whether it has been managed properly should be paramount here and evidentally it has not been which is more worrying.

Dont get me wrong the act itself is horrendous and possibly for little gain, but if they torture a known member of a terrorist organisation and find that he does not have any information, that in itself is information gained.

As a previous poster said innocent people do not get tortured, and lets not be naive - if a US operative was captured I have little doubt that they would be tortured also.

But they do

https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/11/11/innocent-man-tortured-u-s-asks-wheres-accountability/

U.S. non-governmental agencies were allowed to address the U.N. committee today, and Murat Kurnaz (pictured above), who was tortured and detained by the U.S. at Kandahar and then Guantanamo over a period of five years, traveled to Geneva with his attorney, Center for Constitutional Rights Legal Director Baher Azmy. He made the following statement:

My story is like many others. In 2001, while traveling in Pakistan, I was arrested by Pakistani police and sold to the U.S. military for a $3,000 bounty. In Kandahar, the U.S. military subjected me to electric shocks, stress positions, simulated drowning, and endless beatings. In Guantanamo, there was also psychological torture—I was stripped of my humanity, treated like an animal, isolated from the rest of the world, and did not know if I would ever be released.

Even though my lawyers proved that the U.S. knew of my innocence by 2002, I was not released until 2006. I lost five years of my life in Guantanamo.

mikom

irish_dave_83 wrote: »

As a previous poster said innocent people do not get tortured,

I presume the posters name was not Gerry Conlon?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0ff5KjZ7vM

ShowMeTheCash

DeadHand wrote: »

Really? Every war?

The US was complicit in the Russian civil war, Spainish civil war and Biafran war or a dozen others I could name? They instigated or entered wrongly the World Wars?

Or is it more likely you are spouting lazy anti-American nonsense?

You are really stretching here but America was involved in the Russian Civil war and Spanish civial wars happened more in the early 1900s...

As for the Biafran war, economic factors feature heavily in this conflict but sure America have no part to play in that.

You can be dilerately obtuse if you wish but lets put together a list

Border War
Occupation of Nicaragua
Occupation of Haiti
Occupation of the Dominican Republic
World War I
Allied intervention in the Russian Civil War
World War II
Korean War
Vietnam War
Bay of Pigs Invasion
Occupation of the Dominican Republic - AGAIN
Multinational Force in Lebanon
Invasion of Grenada
Invasion of Panama
Gulf War
Unified Task Force (Somali Civil War)
Intervention in Haiti
Bosnian War
Kosovo War
War in Afghanistan (Ongoing)
Insurgency in Yemen (Ongoing)
Iraq War
War in North-West Pakistan
2011 military intervention in Libya
2014 military intervention against ISIL

OK maybe they were not involved in every conflict, I had a fight with a neighbour a few months back I am pretty sure America was not involved there either!

Oh and here is the wiki link knock yourself out

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_the_United_States

Leeleather

Depends on the torture, being forced to eat hundreds of olives and having your genitals drenched in acid are somewhat different.

somuj

DeadHand wrote: »

It's an affront to the basic values of humanity.

.

What are the basic values of humanity and who decides them?

irish_dave_83

elefant wrote: »

You reckon torture is justifiable even in cases when the person doesn't have anything of value to offer in terms of information? Doesn't that seem in any way inherently wrong to you?

This guy is bad= We can do whatever we want to this guy

Well thats not exactly what I said, Im sorry you took it that way. What I meant was that the interrogators will suspect that this member of the terrorist organisation does have information, which is a fair suspision. If he is not giving any information and they then decide to torture him to get it. It is only after the torture that they can be convinced of that he doesnt have any information which inturn tells them that he either is very low level or there is no immediate threat etc - or im sure a number of other things.

Of course its brutal, and it should be used a last resort but it should not be banned, there would be less fear from extremists if it was, no?

As I said previously is should be managed better.

mikom

irish_dave_83 wrote: »

Of course its brutal, and it should be used a last resort but it should not be banned, there would be less fear from extremists if it was, no?

These are the same fearful extremists that can and do make themselves into human bombs?

Tonyandthewhale

JJayoo wrote: »

Depends what kind of torture purely physical pain/psychological and depends on the reason.

Why if it has been proven to be ineffective across the board?

mad muffin

It's worked for me. I can't remember the last time I was attached by a terrorist.

irish_dave_83

mikom wrote: »

These are the same fearful extremists that can and do make themselves into human bombs?

The very same. Ask yourself the question would you rather be tortured and most likely sentenced to death or just blow yourself up(over very quick) for something you beleive in?

Streetwalker

This poll proves despite all the talk the terrorists are winning.

Timberrrrrrrr

Streetwalker wrote: »

This poll proves despite all the talk the terrorists are winning.

Winning what?

ShowMeTheCash

irish_dave_83 wrote: »

The very same. Ask yourself the question would you rather be tortured and most likely sentenced to death or just blow yourself up(over very quick) for something you beleive in?

irish_dave_83 wrote: »

Torture itself is justifiable if managed responsibly. If it prevents the death of innocents then I see the justification.

But it doesn't prevent the deaths of innocents...
As already stated, torture does not work, it does not provide reliable information so why use it?

mikom

irish_dave_83 wrote: »

The very same. Ask yourself the question would you rather be tortured and most likely sentenced to death or just blow yourself up(over very quick) for something you beleive in?

No point in asking me as I am an innocent man, not a terrorist.
But torture me and I might just give you whatever answer you are looking for, no matter how untrue it is...........

See how that works.

ScumLord

I think you just have to look to American TV to see where Americans get all their misinformation from. I'm beginning to think that it's all government sponsored propaganda, either that or Americans want to believe their own nonsense.

Jack bauer uses torture and it always works, anytime torture is used in American fiction it always works.
The government and police forces are quite often made out to be some sort of technological wizards that not only know everything there is to know about everything but also have the time to be superfit and know every martial art there is out there. Just look at the CSI shows, they solve crimes instantly using technology that not only doesn't exist but breaks the laws of physics.

They don't care to represent foreigners as anything other than caricatures as we Irish know all too well.

Their military can go anywhere and do anything within 24 hours.

Just look at American zombie films, the world ends but Americans believe they can pick up a gun and become something that Chuck Norris dreams about, they turn into professional soldiers and just know how to survive while looking good doing it.

They love the idea that anyone of them can do anything if the opportunity is put in front of them, and while that was a great way to start a nation in this day and age they've gone off the reservation and think they can achieve the impossible with ease rather than work hard and achieve the improbable.

America lives in a fantasy land.

daUbiq

irish_dave_83 wrote: »

How so? Whats your issue with it?

Innocent people do get tortured - that's the problem.

irish_dave_83

ShowMeTheCash wrote: »

But it doesn't prevent the deaths of innocents...
As already stated, torture does not work, it does not provide reliable information so why use it?

Well to say it doesn't/never prevented the death of innocent people is a stretch. Its not full proof, far from it. If the information supplied may not always be reliable, but it has to be corroborated against other inteligence information/recon to prove its unreliablity. Absence information is always worse for any investigation.

Yeah_Right

I love the tired line - torture doesn't work. Studies show it doesn't work. Get real. Such BS. It does work if done right. And those people aren't taking part in any studies.

ShowMeTheCash

ScumLord wrote: »

I think you just have to look to American TV to see where Americans get all their misinformation from. I'm beginning to think that it's all government sponsored propaganda, either that or Americans want to believe their own nonsense.

Jack bauer uses torture and it always works, anytime torture is used in American fiction it always works.
The government and police forces are quite often made out to be some sort of technological wizards that not only know everything there is to know about everything but also have the time to be superfit and know every martial art there is out there. Just look at the CSI shows, they solve crimes instantly using technology that not only doesn't exist but breaks the laws of physics.

They don't care to represent foreigners as anything other than caricatures as we Irish know all too well.

Their military can go anywhere and do anything within 24 hours.

Just look at American zombie films, the world ends but Americans believe they can pick up a gun and become something that Chuck Norris dreams about, they turn into professional soldiers and just know how to survive while looking good doing it.

They love the idea that anyone of them can do anything if the opportunity is put in front of them, and while that was a great way to start a nation in this day and age they've gone off the reservation and think they can achieve the impossible with ease rather than work hard and achieve the improbable.

America lives in a fantasy land.

Just so you know, Chuck Norris's dreams are reality!

daUbiq

Yeah_Right wrote: »

I love the tired line - torture doesn't work. Studies show it doesn't work. Get real. Such BS. It does work if done right. And those people aren't taking part in any studies.

Are you an Amerikan?

ShowMeTheCash

Yeah_Right wrote: »

I love the tired line - torture doesn't work. Studies show it doesn't work. Get real. Such BS. It does work if done right. And those people aren't taking part in any studies.

Go back to watcing TV

ShowMeTheCash

daUbiq wrote: »

Are you an Amerikan?

Better watch out he probably knows Kung Fu

Tonyandthewhale

BuilderPlumber wrote: »

But in .01% of cases, it is when all else does not work. These cases are when ALL OF the following conditions are met:

-You have an ISIS/al Qaeda/Neo-Nazi/other fascist extremist who you KNOW is a member of the relevant terrorist organisation and who KNOWS something about an imminent terrorist attack that will kill innocent people or who knows where hostages being tortured or killed are located.
-The prisoner won't talk and you have tried everything from cutting him a deal to threatening torture.
-You try less severe types of torture first. Such as withdrawing of food and water until they talk.
-The prisoner has to be a member of a VERY deranged organisation Neo-Nazi organisation (ISIS, al Qaeda, etc.) who is known for their deliberate killing of innocent people.

Some problems with this:
1. Torture has been shown to be ineffective. People will supply information to get the torture to stop even if they have to make it up. Even if somehow you KNOW that the suspect has useful information there's no strong incentive to provide useful information. He just has to provide information that's close enough to the truth to make you happy for awhile and he gets a reprieve from your horribleness. You might figure out later that he lied when the information doesn't match facts on the ground and you might punish him for that but so what, you've already been torturing you, he already hates you, ****ing with you is revenge and once you've sunken to the level of torture he knows this isn't going in the direction of a fair trial and a reasonable sentence in a clean prison cell. He's ****ed either way and has nothing to lose.

2. Why are you trying to prevent a terrorist attack? Because some terrorists hate you/your country? Why do they hate you? Possibly because you bomb them and torture them. Stop this and they might hate you less, continue this and they'll hate you more. There are other factors at play but there's a reason groups like Al Qaeda aren't targeting neutral countries with perfect human rights records who only ever use their militaries for peace-keeping operations and helping out with natural disasters.

Hoop66

Yeah_Right wrote: »

I love the tired line - torture doesn't work. Studies show it doesn't work. Get real. Such BS. It does work if done right. And those people aren't taking part in any studies.

But you know them, yeah? I'm impressed.

Did they tell you all about the real torture?