Most Americans believe torture can be justified - poll

Roger Hassenforder

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

This is the epitome of a terrorist organization.

no it's not.
It's a trait or characteristic common to some (not even most)

Timberrrrrrrr

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

no it's not.
It's a trait or characteristic common to some (not even most)

I'll go along with this version thanks

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/terrorism

terrorism
[ter-uh-riz-uh m] Spell Syllables
Examples Word Origin
noun
1.
the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, especially for political purposes.
2.
the state of fear and submission produced by terrorism or terrorization

Streetwalker

the dark phantom wrote: »

Looking at America today one can see parallels with Nazi Germany. The Nazi leadership just weren't as clever or devious as the oligarchy that rules America. People often say why didn't the German people say stop, But by looking at America now its easy to see how propaganda and nationalism can keep the people content and feeling like they are the ones under attack which to them justifies the terror they have brought to other nations...

So true. The fact most don't see a problem with torture is very worrying indeed.

AudreyHepburn

I would wonder about the mental wellbeing of any person who thinks ok to willingly inflict pain of any sort on another.

Yeah_Right

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

And how many innocent people would you be willing to kill to stop them killing innocent people?

Millions. The way I see it, we are at war. Islam vs. the West. We need to be doing whatever it takes to win. If torturing suspects is what it takes, so be it. If dropping dozens of nukes on the Middle East is needed, so be it. Yes innocents will die but thats what happens in war. I want my side to win.

Yes I know I will get grief for this post but that is my honest opinion.

Billy86

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Millions. The way I see it, we are at war. Islam vs. the West. We need to be doing whatever it takes to win. If torturing suspects is what it takes, so be it. If dropping dozens of nukes on the Middle East is needed, so be it. Yes innocents will die but thats what happens in war. I want my side to win.

Yes I know I will get grief for this post but that is my honest opinion.

Yawn.

Timberrrrrrrr

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Millions. The way I see it, we are at war. Islam vs. the West. We need to be doing whatever it takes to win. If torturing suspects is what it takes, so be it. If dropping dozens of nukes on the Middle East is needed, so be it. Yes innocents will die but thats what happens in war. I want my side to win.

Yes I know I will get grief for this post but that is my honest opinion.

So your answer to stop the deaths of innocent people is to kill MILLIONS of innocent people?

Yeah_Right

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

So your answer to stop the deaths of innocent people is to kill MILLIONS of innocent people?

Yes.

Hoop66

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Millions. The way I see it, we are at war. Islam vs. the West. We need to be doing whatever it takes to win. If torturing suspects is what it takes, so be it. If dropping dozens of nukes on the Middle East is needed, so be it. Yes innocents will die but thats what happens in war. I want my side to win.

Yes I know I will get grief for this post but that is my honest opinion.

IF that really is your "honest" opinion then you are clearly incapable of rational thought.

Your input to the debate is not required.

Yeah_Right

Hoop66 wrote: »

IF that really is your "honest" opinion then you are clearly incapable of rational thought.

Your input to the debate is not required.

I think its perfectly rational. And no ones input is "required" but different opinions are needed for a debate. You disagree with mine, I disagree with yours.

Timberrrrrrrr

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Yes.

Well then if that's the case the sooner America gets nuked to oblivion the better right because they kill thousands of innocent people every year, Let's then move onto Israel because hey they bomb the **** out of kids every couple of years.

Grand Moff Tarkin

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Millions. The way I see it, we are at war. Islam vs. the West. We need to be doing whatever it takes to win. If torturing suspects is what it takes, so be it. If dropping dozens of nukes on the Middle East is needed, so be it. Yes innocents will die but thats what happens in war. I want my side to win.

Yes I know I will get grief for this post but that is my honest opinion.

Most religious sects have moved on from the days of having to obey the holy books word for word other than Islam which is why it is the most dangerous of all the faiths out there which the weak minded buy into. That is the one faith which should be erased from the face of the earth once and for all.

Timberrrrrrrr

Grand Moff Tarkin wrote: »

Most religious sects have moved on from the days of having to obey the holy books word for word other than Islam which is why it is the most dangerous of all the faiths out there which the weak minded buy into. That is the one faith which should be erased from the face of the earth once and for all.

How?

Streetwalker

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Millions. The way I see it, we are at war. Islam vs. the West. We need to be doing whatever it takes to win. If torturing suspects is what it takes, so be it. If dropping dozens of nukes on the Middle East is needed, so be it. Yes innocents will die but thats what happens in war. I want my side to win.

Yes I know I will get grief for this post but that is my honest opinion.

I look at these type of posts and all I see is a 17 year old kid still living in his mams and dads house playing video games with no concept of the real world.

One day you will walk outside and see that there is still beauty in life. Go for a walk and relax man/woman.

Hoop66

Grand Moff Tarkin wrote: »

Most religious sects have moved on from the days of having to obey the holy books word for word other than Islam which is why it is the most dangerous of all the faiths out there which the weak minded buy into. That is the one faith which should be erased from the face of the earth once and for all.

When I see a post like this, I ask myself: How much experience of people of different faiths does the poster have? This is assuming that all people who live in "christian" countries are christian and all people who live in "muslim" countris are muslim.

I'm going to take a guess and say that your opinion of muslims is based on what you see and hear on the TV/Radio/Internet. You should try to talk to a "muslim" or someone from a muslim country. Judging by your posts you seem to think that if you say "hello" they are going to scream "allah'u akhbar" in your face. You might be surprised...

Yeah_Right

Streetwalker wrote: »

I look at these type of posts and all I see is a 17 year old kid still living in his mams and dads house playing video games with no concept of the real world.

One day you will walk outside and see that there is still beauty in life. Go for a walk and relax man/woman.

Haha. In my case you are very wrong. Double the age, don't play video games and haven't seen my folks for a long time. Actually travelled the world a lot over the past 20 years. Been many places and seen many things.

And I'm probably one of the most relaxed people you could ever meet. I just have a different opinion to you.

ireland.man

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Haha. In my case you are very wrong. Double the age, don't play video games and haven't seen my folks for a long time. Actually travelled the world a lot over the past 20 years. Been many places and seen many things.

And I'm probably one of the most relaxed people you could ever meet. I just have a different opinion to you.

Now I'm picturing you as Johnny Cash.

Roger Hassenforder

Hoop66 wrote: »

IF that really is your "honest" opinion then you are clearly incapable of rational thought.

Your input to the debate is not required.

He is as entitled to his opinion as you are. Unfortunately.

Roger Hassenforder

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

I'll go along with this version thanks

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/terrorism

terrorism
[ter-uh-riz-uh m] Spell Syllables
Examples Word Origin
noun
1.
the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, especially for political purposes.
2.
the state of fear and submission produced by terrorism or terrorization

Good man, you're starting to get there.

Grand Moff Tarkin

Hoop66 wrote: »

When I see a post like this, I ask myself: How much experience of people of different faiths does the poster have? This is assuming that all people who live in "christian" countries are christian and all people who live in "muslim" countris are muslim.

I'm going to take a guess and say that your opinion of muslims is based on what you see and hear on the TV/Radio/Internet. You should try to talk to a "muslim" or someone from a muslim country. Judging by your posts you seem to think that if you say "hello" they are going to scream "allah'u akhbar" in your face. You might be surprised...

Five years in Europe along with ten years in the USA before we decided to move home to Ireland as the eldest was on the way. All religions are cults of one form or another but any that go along the convert or die road and treat women as second class citizens are especially vile.

Hoop66

Did you meet many muslims on your travels? Were they ALL of the "convert or die" variety? Or are you basing that on what you've seen/heard on TV/Radio?

Can you see how that could be considered narrow-minded?

How would you feel if everywhere you went people assumed you were a devout, fundamentalist catholic, and would burn down an abortion clinic the first chance you got, because you were Irish? Especially if you were a "weddings & funerals" type of catholic, because believe me there are an awful lot of "muslims" who are in the same boat.

Grand Moff Tarkin

Hoop66 wrote: »

Did you meet many muslims on your travels? Were they ALL of the "convert or die" variety? Or are you basing that on what you've seen/heard on TV/Radio?

Can you see how that could be considered narrow-minded?

How would you feel if everywhere you went people assumed you were a devout, fundamentalist catholic, and would burn down an abortion clinic the first chance you got, because you were Irish? Especially if you were a "weddings & funerals" type of catholic, because believe me there are an awful lot of "muslims" who are in the same boat.

I think the last time I stepped inside a church was over two years ago for a funeral. I try and avoid the Catholic places of worship as well considering the horrors those lovely people inflicted on the population of Ireland over the years.

Timberrrrrrrr

Grand Moff Tarkin wrote: »

Five years in Europe along with ten years in the USA before we decided to move home to Ireland as the eldest was on the way. All religions are cults of one form or another but any that go along the convert or die road and treat women as second class citizens are especially vile.

So catholics included?

daUbiq

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Millions. The way I see it, we are at war. Islam vs. the West. We need to be doing whatever it takes to win. If torturing suspects is what it takes, so be it. If dropping dozens of nukes on the Middle East is needed, so be it. Yes innocents will die but thats what happens in war. I want my side to win.

Yes I know I will get grief for this post but that is my honest opinion.

We? are you talking about yourself? Ireland? western Europe? Amerika?

Have you ever fired an assault rifle? had an assault rifle fired at you? The way I see it - you (or we as you refer to yourself) are not actually at war - you just believe everything you read in the daily mail or see on sky news...

Please don't lump us reasonable people in with the warmongers from Amerika - it's their war, which they started.. Thank you.

Yeah_Right

Hoop66 wrote: »

Did you meet many muslims on your travels? Were they ALL of the "convert or die" variety? Or are you basing that on what you've seen/heard on TV/Radio?

Can you see how that could be considered narrow-minded?

How would you feel if everywhere you went people assumed you were a devout, fundamentalist catholic, and would burn down an abortion clinic the first chance you got, because you were Irish? Especially if you were a "weddings & funerals" type of catholic, because believe me there are an awful lot of "muslims" who are in the same boat.

I'm not Irish.

Yes I've met Muslims. Went to school with some, worked with some, played football with some. Hasn't changed my opinion on their religion.

Timberrrrrrrr

Yeah_Right wrote: »

I'm not Irish.

Yes I've met Muslims. Went to school with some, worked with some, played football with some. Hasn't changed my opinion on their religion.

So you think they should all be killed?

humanji

MOD: Stop with the hate speech and the anti-religion rants. Stick to the topic.

Billy86

Grand Moff Tarkin wrote: »

Most religious sects have moved on from the days of having to obey the holy books word for word other than Islam which is why it is the most dangerous of all the faiths out there which the weak minded buy into. That is the one faith which should be erased from the face of the earth once and for all.

Ask anyone who has studied theology and the like and they will tell you that Islam used to be probably the most progressive and intellectual tally based if all the main religions, but got overtaken by Wahhabism and extremists in recent decades. The reason Wahhabism got so big so fast was because their doctrines were being printed way, way more than any others at a time when literacy was growing at a large rate. The reason it was being printed so much more was because it was prominent in Saudi Arabia, who had just come into a bunch of oil money to do so.

The reason extremists got so much power was as a result of Western/corporate imperialism (often trying to get control of that oil) messing with their land and politics. As often happens, the masses who disapproved of this needed to unite together rather than fight as factions which is exactly what the west & US in particular wanted... and as has often been the case through history, they did this under the guise of religion. In many ways it has got out of hand since then, but that is what happens when you mess with a different cultures system in the interest of nothing but your own gain.

And if you don't think there are any Christian sects that are radical, fundamentalists, or take the Bible word for word, you really should do a bit more research.

EDIT: never mind, had not see humanji's post above.

ireland.man

Is there any major religion in the world that has not inspired or promoted sectarian violence in the 20th century?

I have never had torture justified to me in GENERAL terms as a good way to go. As a general policy I mean. And not so far convinced by the arguments on the thread.

But I can certainly envision specific scenarios where it would be justified. They might be extremely unlikely scenarios but I can envision them all the same.

For example if I walk into a room with a terrorist who has just turned on a bomb - and its a key pad code that is required to unlock it - I would certainly feel justified in applying just the right amount of discomfort to his well being that is required to make him reach over and key in the required code.

But as many have pointed out - in an isolated scenario of information extraction - you tend to end up with a plyable lump of rubbish who will tell you anything you want to hear to stop the torture. Which defeats the purpose of the torture.

I know I would suck as a spy myself however. You would just have to tie me to a chair and APPROACH me with a hot waxy candle - and I would spill everything from government secrets to my sexual sordid thoughts before you even said "dismiteburnya".