ALL THINGS IRISH WATER/WATER RELATED Part 2 - MOD WARNING IN OP

yipeeeee · 09-11-2014 01:59PM

branie2 wrote: »

Have you no pride in your country? Shame on you!

This is the thing. Most of the people here and the general public dispise any talk of the proclamation or attending comemmorations for brave men and women who have fought and died for their "country".

But all of a sudden we should salute these brave heroes sitting on a road been a nuisance to the general publics working day lives.

Going Forward · 09-11-2014 02:00PM

I do not want to pay for water in any way

yipeeeee wrote: »

Sounds so easy doesn't it.

Try implenetening it.

It just needs to be spelled out properly.

09-11-2014 02:01PM

I would like to see IW to cease trading and water to remain controlled by government/local auth

ROCKMAN wrote: »

Keep it up Steve ,you're starting to make the unmovable vibrate a little.

Most people can see the value and sense of the following points made by irish Steve.

"In terms of specifics, my agenda for change includes:-

State employees that retire before the normal retirement age would not be allowed to draw from their pension if they take other work, with exceptions allowed for services like the Fire service and the Gardai, and armed forces, where physical fitness are a fundamental part of the job.

State employment will no longer be guaranteed for life, the same rules, and benefits will be applied to the state sector as are applied to the private sector, in terms of redundancy pay etc.

A top to bottom review of all "special allowances and payments" for the state sector will be made, and compared to the private sector, and where there are inappropriate differences, there will be changes.

Politicians pay and allowances will be subject to an approval on the general election voting paper, to ensure that the practice of paying themselves extra that has no relation to reality is no longer possible. Every other trade or profession is regulated by either profit or management, or shareholders, it's appropriate that the shareholders of Ireland Inc should be able to determine the pay and conditions of the people running Ireland Inc.

Procedures for the removal of non performing state employees need to be put into place, and that doesn't mean having a way to move people to another department, or sideways.

The constitution has to be changed to bring in a requirement that if a petition receives more than a defined % of signatures, the political system has to take note of that petition and act to either hold a referendum style vote, or otherwise respond to that petition in a timely manner.

Any person convicted of fraud, corruption, or other similar offences, including tax evasion, is disbarred from serving in political office for at least 10 years, or maybe even longer.

The Seanad electoral system will be reformed to make the members of the second chamber more representative of the country, with the Government no longer able to use it as a "reward" for their TD's that lost their seats, and a dramatic reduction in the university voted seats.

An option on the voting system at general elections to positively vote "None of the above". If that % nationally is above a designated %, the entire election is void, and ALL parties have to review their manifestos (and possibly their candidates) before a re run of the election

No TD shall serve more than 4 consecutive terms in office.

No TD shall receive "special allowance" payments if they are not re-elected.

TD's "attendance" allowances be discontinued, and unvouched expense are no longer permitted.

Dail and Seanad sittings be brought into line with better business practice, and long breaks are no longer permitted.

Taxation systems reformed to ensure that local authorities are adequately funded from taxes that are appropriate to the local level.

The HSE and IW are reviewed to determine their real staffing requirement, with the surplus being retired with appropriate separation packages.

Health reviewed to reduce the administrative overhead that is involved in non health activities such as billing insurance companies for time, services and drugs. Serious consideration given to a fundamental change of the manner in which health is funded and provided.

A & E and emergency services charges for self inflicted injury due to alcohol abuse introduced

Quangos reviewed to determine if they really serve any useful purpose now, and if they don't they are closed.

Pensions for both the public and private sector become a mandatory part of employment, deductable at source, and transferrable between employments.

Self employed is not longer regarded as a different employment status, and the self employed pay PRSI at both employee AND employer rate, and become eligible for all social welfare services and assistance services. "

yipeeeee · 09-11-2014 02:02PM

Going Forward wrote: »

It just needs to be spelled out properly.

Bravo sir, bravo..

moxin · 09-11-2014 02:27PM

I do not want to pay for water in any way

From Gene Kerrigan http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/gene-kerrigan/building-mr-kennys-legacy-of-deceit-and-distrust-30729113.html

Where did the Taoiseach get his threatened 4pc income tax rise? Pulled it out of his arse.

Michael Taft, on his Notes on the Front blog, has done the maths, as has Tom McDonnell from the Nevin Institute. Separately, they put on the table enough facts and figures to tell us what's going on - in a way no government minister has bothered.

The Government needs to take in about €305m in household charges to trigger an EU rule that allows them to borrow money through a government-funded "commercial" company, "off the balance sheet". This creates a pretence that the Government isn't borrowing the money, and it keeps the deficit looking like it's under 3pc. It fools no one. Not investors - many of whom are able to read - and not the EU.

To make this work, hundreds of millions have to be spent on installing water meters and more hundreds of millions on a company infrastructure to process the charges.

This is all waste.

Kenny wouldn't need a 4pc tax increase to net the €305m - but he would need it to massage the figures, to make it look like his off-the-balance-sheet trick was keeping the deficit down. Again, childish behaviour.

R0ot · 09-11-2014 03:00PM

The local against Irish Water charges FB group posted this up today. I really wish these groups wouldn't blatantly share such stupid (and utterly false) articles/initiatives. I'm just waiting for the outrage post that president hasn't listened to their petition....

Phoebas · 09-11-2014 03:14PM

R0ot wrote: »

The local against Irish Water charges FB group posted this up today. I really wish these groups wouldn't blatantly share such stupid (and utterly false) articles/initiatives. I'm just waiting for the outrage post that president hasn't listened to their petition....

The scary bit is that nearly 5,000 people actually think that the President has the discretionary power to do what they want him to do.

twowheelsgood · 09-11-2014 03:31PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Politicians pay and allowances will be subject to an approval on the general election voting paper, to ensure that the practice of paying themselves extra that has no relation to reality is no longer possible. Every other trade or profession is regulated by either profit or management, or shareholders, it's appropriate that the shareholders of Ireland Inc should be able to determine the pay and conditions of the people running Ireland Inc.

I think that practice is gone? Is their pay linked to certain civil service grades?

And there is a particular problem in politics that does really apply in business. What is popular and what is sensible is not one and the same.

Imagine if your plan applied in the last 20 years. The current crowd would be on minimum wage and Bertie and his gang would be rolling in it. :pac:

And it is not of course just our problem. Surely one of the reasons countries build up massive debts is because there is already too little incentive for any political party to look any further than the next election?

My name is URL · 09-11-2014 03:35PM

I would like to see IW to cease trading and water to remain controlled by government/local auth

moxin wrote: »

From Gene Kerrigan http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/gene-kerrigan/building-mr-kennys-legacy-of-deceit-and-distrust-30729113.html

Nice to see him address the despicable smears that have been made against protesters by Ministers and Gardai too.

Meanwhile, the smears. Apparently, the 150,000 people who protested against the water tax are dupes and harbourers of violent subversives.

Frances Fitzgerald, Minister for Justice, put on her frowny face and told us that "violence and intimidation" are not acceptable. Various ministers joined in.

Independent evidence of violence or intimidation is infinitesimal, compared with the size of the protests.

It's not the business of the Minister to smear the protesters, under the guise of a homily on violence. It's the business of the police to arrest and bring before the courts anyone they find engaging in violence or intimidation.

And that applies to other gardai, too.

Pity he didn't include his own paper in the above, mind.

Irish Steve · 09-11-2014 03:41PM

I would like to see IW to cease trading and water to remain controlled by government/local auth

R0ot wrote: »

The local against Irish Water charges FB group posted this up today. I really wish these groups wouldn't blatantly share such stupid (and utterly false) articles/initiatives. I'm just waiting for the outrage post that president hasn't listened to their petition....

Phoebas wrote: »

The scary bit is that nearly 5,000 people actually think that the President has the discretionary power to do what they want him to do.

The limits on the power of the president is something that should be modified. If a large enough number of people petition the president, ( a LOT more than 5000) he or she should be able to require that the Government at least hold a referendum on the issue that's been raised, there needs to be some form of means in the constitution to allow the people to register their genuine concerns over the direction that the government is taking.

As things stand at the moment, we have completely lost control of the executive, we can't do anything to change the direction or policy of the elite, other than throw them out, and right now, even if we did, the alternatives that are on offer are not exactly enticing or acceptable.

So, the better option is to be able to force the Government to make changes during the electoral cycle, if they are doing things that enough people are unhappy about.

There will need to be some protections to prevent mass protest about tax changes in the short term, otherwise nothing would get done for the next 10 years while the system settles in, but as an example, right now, the ability to petition about Irish Water would get a lot of signatures, and not because of the water charges as such, but because of the lies, deception, corruption, cronyism and all the other issues that surround Irish Water and the people managing it.

As I've commented elsewhere, perhaps we should be thanking Tierney and his underlings for their actions, it's taken their excesses to finally galvanise the Irish people into action and say "ENOUGH", and realistically, we should have been doing so a long time ago, but at last, people have recognised the arrogance and contempt with which their elected representatives are treating them, and are rising up and saying NO MORE.

As to the end result, who knows, if enough people push hard enough and for long enough, just maybe, the end of the first century of the Republic of Ireland will usher in the real changes that are needed for Ireland to be able to hold it's head up high as a proud republic going forward.

The alternative will be to have the IMF come in again and enforce the most brutal changes ever when things once again spiral into economic disaster, and when it happens, the only people to blame next time will be the electorate, for not insisting on the fundamental reforms of the state systems that are so long overdue and essential.

Stargate · 09-11-2014 03:47PM

I do not want to pay for water in any way

TD Stephen Donnelly " Can i speak please ? "

NO !

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Phoebas · 09-11-2014 03:57PM

Irish Steve wrote: »

The limits on the power of the president is something that should be modified. If a large enough number of people petition the president, ( a LOT more than 5000) he or she should be able to require that the Government at least hold a referendum on the issue that's been raised, there needs to be some form of means in the constitution to allow the people to register their genuine concerns over the direction that the government is taking.

Maybe so, but the folks over at DDI aren't gaining much electoral traction with similar proposals.

DamagedTrax · 09-11-2014 04:16PM

I do not want to pay for water in any way

Stargate wrote: »

TD Stephen Donnelly " Can i speak please ? "

NO !

does he have to hand his words back in some form of packaging or cardboard box?

Satriale · 09-11-2014 04:23PM

I would like Irish Water as a company to be restructured

My name is URL wrote: »

Pity he didn't include his own paper in the above, mind.

I suppose he can only say so much before the Malteser steps in. Great article anyway.

In Lonesome Dove · 09-11-2014 04:31PM

My name is URL wrote: »

Nice to see him address the despicable smears that have been made against protesters by Ministers and Gardai too.

Pity he didn't include his own paper in the above, mind.

My Name Is URL,

Last week we saw nationwide demonstrations against these water charges and austerity. Also in October in the capital. These were attended by many many people with hardship thrown upon their backs and were very much peaceful protests. This is very real. However this movement has been tainted.

I was watching YouTube videos last night of the smaller protests happening in housing estates and other areas of mainly Dublin. I was absolutely sickened as to what I watched happening.

I read comments on various sites online on the lines of gardai using force and provoking violence. From what I watched last night, I don't think this is true. In some videos, I saw gardai holding out an arm in front of people, perhaps to prevent a protester from stepping forward. Almost similar to what a bodyguard would do, protecting a person from a large crowd. From what I saw, there was no force or huge energies being used from the gardai. Protesters then shouting stuff like 'you've shoved me'.
- In another video, a meter installer or maybe even a garda, stepped backwards and bumped into someone and a person holding up a camera shouting 'you assaulted me'. Ah, that's not assault.
- In another video a group of protesters surrounded the car that Joan Burton was in and a protester shouted such things at her like 'you're only a dirty tart', 'you're a toerag' and I think the word cùnt could have been used too. Now, I'm no fan of Joan Burton but what is shouting such dirt at her going to achieve.

If all that is not intimidation, I don't know what is.

Tinkersbell · 09-11-2014 04:37PM

I do not want to pay for water in any way

In Lonesome Dove wrote: »

My Name Is URL,

Last week we saw nationwide demonstrations against these water charges and austerity. Also in October in the capital. These were attended by many many people with hardship thrown upon their backs and were very much peaceful protests. This is very real. However this movement has been tainted.

I was watching YouTube videos last night of the smaller protests happening in housing estates and other areas of mainly Dublin. I was absolutely sickened as to what I watched happening.

I read comments on various sites online on the lines of gardai using force and provoking violence. From what I watched last night, I don't think this is true. In some videos, I saw gardai holding out an arm in front of people, perhaps to prevent a protester from stepping forward. Almost similar to what a bodyguard would do, protecting a person from a large crowd. From what I saw, there was no force or huge energies being used from the gardai. Protesters then shouting stuff like 'you've shoved me'.
In another video, a meter installer or maybe even a garda, stepped backwards and bumped into someone and a person holding up a camera shouting 'you assaulted me'. Ah, that's not assault.
In another video a group of protesters surrounded the car that Joan Burton was in and a protester shouted such things at her like 'you're only a dirty tart', 'you're a toerag' and I think the word cùnt could have been used too. Now, I'm no fan of Joan Burton but what is shouting such dirt at her going to achieve.

If all that is not intimidation, I don't know what is.

Up to 150,000 were on the marches last week, hundreds of thousands more are protesting by not responding to anything from irish water.
There's a couple of hundred arseholes who will jump on any bandwagon and make comments like these and cause trouble like you outlined.
They probably make up 0.0001% of people who are protesting against the water tax.
Of course, it's that 0.0001% are the only ones the pro water tax lot give any attention to.

DamagedTrax · 09-11-2014 05:34PM

I do not want to pay for water in any way

In Lonesome Dove wrote: »

My Name Is URL,

Last week we saw nationwide demonstrations against these water charges and austerity. Also in October in the capital. These were attended by many many people with hardship thrown upon their backs and were very much peaceful protests. This is very real. However this movement has been tainted.

I was watching YouTube videos last night of the smaller protests happening in housing estates and other areas of mainly Dublin. I was absolutely sickened as to what I watched happening.

I read comments on various sites online on the lines of gardai using force and provoking violence. From what I watched last night, I don't think this is true. In some videos, I saw gardai holding out an arm in front of people, perhaps to prevent a protester from stepping forward. Almost similar to what a bodyguard would do, protecting a person from a large crowd. From what I saw, there was no force or huge energies being used from the gardai. Protesters then shouting stuff like 'you've shoved me'.
- In another video, a meter installer or maybe even a garda, stepped backwards and bumped into someone and a person holding up a camera shouting 'you assaulted me'. Ah, that's not assault.
- In another video a group of protesters surrounded the car that Joan Burton was in and a protester shouted such things at her like 'you're only a dirty tart', 'you're a toerag' and I think the word cùnt could have been used too. Now, I'm no fan of Joan Burton but what is shouting such dirt at her going to achieve.

If all that is not intimidation, I don't know what is.

you should try searching something different and you may see the young lad have an actual fit as he's being dragged on his face across the road.

or the copper punching the lady in the ribs at trinity while she had her hands held up.

or the copper in coolock that assaulted a minor and then tried to deny it to the mother in the face of video evidence.

while i dont condone protesters trying to make claims of intimidation when it isnt present, there are very clearly 2 sides to this debacle.

downonthefarm · 09-11-2014 05:38PM

I was willing to go along and pay water charges like a good Joe tax payer.i even looked down on the protests to begin with.with everything that has come out about iw and the downright arrogance of kenny and the rest of the gob****es i am not returning the form .i actually admire the people for standing up for themselves.

renegademaster · 09-11-2014 05:43PM

downonthefarm wrote: »

I was willing to go along and pay water charges like a good Joe tax payer.i even looked down on the protests to begin with.with everything that has come out about iw and the downright arrogance of kenny and the rest of the gob****es i am not returning the form .i actually admire the people for standing up for themselves.

it looks like you've had a little bit too much to think

welcome :pac:

Ghost Buster · 09-11-2014 05:46PM

yipeeeee wrote: »

This is the thing. Most of the people here and the general public dispise any talk of the proclamation or attending comemmorations for brave men and women who have fought and died for their "country".

But all of a sudden we should salute these brave heroes sitting on a road been a nuisance to the general publics working day lives.

Most eh? Bloody hell. Can ya give me links to a few examples. Just a handful.

the immortals · 09-11-2014 05:59PM

moxin wrote: »

From Gene Kerrigan http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/gene-kerrigan/building-mr-kennys-legacy-of-deceit-and-distrust-30729113.html

This,

the immortals · 09-11-2014 06:26PM

10th dec, get out and protest if you can,

Cuttlefish · 09-11-2014 06:56PM

In Lonesome Dove wrote: »

My Name Is URL,

Last week we saw nationwide demonstrations against these water charges and austerity. Also in October in the capital. These were attended by many many people with hardship thrown upon their backs and were very much peaceful protests. This is very real. However this movement has been tainted.

I was watching YouTube videos last night of the smaller protests happening in housing estates and other areas of mainly Dublin. I was absolutely sickened as to what I watched happening.

I read comments on various sites online on the lines of gardai using force and provoking violence. From what I watched last night, I don't think this is true. In some videos, I saw gardai holding out an arm in front of people, perhaps to prevent a protester from stepping forward. Almost similar to what a bodyguard would do, protecting a person from a large crowd. From what I saw, there was no force or huge energies being used from the gardai. Protesters then shouting stuff like 'you've shoved me'.
- In another video, a meter installer or maybe even a garda, stepped backwards and bumped into someone and a person holding up a camera shouting 'you assaulted me'. Ah, that's not assault.
- In another video a group of protesters surrounded the car that Joan Burton was in and a protester shouted such things at her like 'you're only a dirty tart', 'you're a toerag' and I think the word cùnt could have been used too. Now, I'm no fan of Joan Burton but what is shouting such dirt at her going to achieve.

If all that is not intimidation, I don't know what is.

Go onto YouTube and look at the Shell to Sea clips, there are three sides to every story don't forget.

Cuttlefish · 09-11-2014 06:56PM

the immortals wrote: »

10th dec, get out and protest if you can,

And Dec 6th in Cork

Enough is enough

Tinkersbell · 09-11-2014 07:15PM

I do not want to pay for water in any way

I've just been reading through a few of the newspaper websites and the like, sites with interviews from various FG/Labour TD's and ministers, and I've now come to realise that all crime committed in this country is down to water tax protesters.
This really is a sorry state of affairs.

Galwayguy35 · 09-11-2014 07:20PM

I would like to see IW to cease trading and water to remain controlled by government/local auth

I think this one has the Government worried with just over a year until the Election.

The last FG meetng was a lively one by all accounts.

Satriale · 09-11-2014 07:23PM

I would like Irish Water as a company to be restructured

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

I think this one has the Government worried with just over a year until the Election.

The last FG meetng was a lively one by all accounts.

I only hope they last long enough to see the next protest!

09-11-2014 07:29PM

I would like to see IW to cease trading and water to remain controlled by government/local auth

Any chance of having another poll? Maybe giving the option to select more than one answer?

I am opposed to metered water charges
I agree with metered water charges
I will be attending a protest march
I will not be attending a protest march
I would like Irish Water as a company to remain in it's current form
I would like Irish Water as a company to be restructured
I would like to see Irish Water as a company to cease trading and water to remain controlled by government/local authorities.

Just some ideas of possible poll questions and I believe the option to select more than one answer would give a better idea of the feelings of boardsies. My wording could probably be better too. Add/amend as you wish.

twowheelsgood · 09-11-2014 07:41PM

Strawberry Milkshake wrote: »

Any chance of having another poll? Maybe giving the option to select more than one answer?
I am opposed to metered water charges

I agree with metered water charges

I will be attending a protest march

I will not be attending a protest march

I would like Irish Water as a company to remain in it's current form

I would like Irish Water as a company to be restructured

I would like to see Irish Water as a company to cease trading and water to remain controlled by government/local authorities.

Just some ideas of possible poll questions and I believe the option to select more than one answer would give a better idea of the feelings of boardsies. My wording could probably be better too. Add/amend as you wish.

Is not 1 and 7 the same?

Going Forward · 09-11-2014 07:52PM

I do not want to pay for water in any way

Irish Steve wrote: »

I'm not sure if there are any figures available for the split between domestic and commercial water in the public domain, but they should be available under FOI legislation, in that the local authorities have been charging non residential users for water and waste water for many years, and still are as agents of IW.

According to this source:

http://www.askaboutireland.ie/enfo/irelands-environment/water/water-in-ireland/

the Agri sector uses some 70% of water produced.

Puts everything into a different context doesn't it?

**ALL THINGS IRISH WATER/WATER RELATED** Part 2 - MOD WARNING IN OP

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ALL THINGS IRISH WATER/WATER RELATED Part 2 - MOD WARNING IN OP