2nd rate colleges in Ireland?

Ebbs · 24-10-2014 09:51PM

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

based on my experience, there's a big difference in the standard of graduates we tend to get in from the local IT v the local NUI College. The former show less initiative, usually require more instruction and supervision, and generally have poorer communication & literacy skills.

Agree with the former, disagree with the latter.

IT students generally do require more instruction and supervision but also work better under these conditions. Worked in industries where following specific supervision is the majority of the job, even if you look at aspects like accounting, the majority is under intense supervision for first years. NUI students seem to have a bit more of a work ethic due to the self learning aspect of their courses. They're suited for project based work, more so in an individual setting.

IT students however in my experience have been miles ahead in regards to communication. They have worked in teams for the majority of their degrees and seem to feel at home in this aspect. NUI students seem to have better extra curricular activities on their CV but actually perform worse in teams, especially putting them into pre-established teams.

Of course this is massive generalisations but observation based on working with both in various settings.

Wompa1 · 24-10-2014 11:11PM

In my experience, it hasn't mattered where the person got their degree from or even if they don't have a degree.

Some of the best people I've worked with in IT, did not go to any third level institution. They did private courses with a much higher standard than any Irish College or University would hold students too. I spoke with a lad, who was speaking with some of the Universities around Ireland about their courses, offering to provide some free training to lecturers.

The guy was over from Canada working for a multi-national in Dublin for the year.

The level of competence in the lecturers and the lack of relevance in the course material was pretty disappointing.

Unfortunately, the entire third level system in Ireland is f*cked, doesn't matter if it's a Uni or IT. If you can study for 2 weeks before your exams and walk away with a 1.1...what does that say? Maybe you're super intelligent. What if the majority of people walk away with the same?...Talked to a few lads that went to University in the US and asked them whether or not lecturers in the US give tips and if so what were the tips like....Lecturers in Ireland practically hand out the exams beforehand.

Jester252 · 25-10-2014 12:06AM

Well the education level has been diluted in Ireland. With level 8 degree becoming the new LC, there isn't a space for 2-4 year full time level 6 and 7.

Roger Hassenforder · 25-10-2014 12:26AM

Beaner1 wrote: »

Is this because you have a massive chip on your shoulder in common with them.

I once turned down a PhD at an IT (I was invited to discuss) as the head man wanted it use me as some kind of experiment to show that SFI were discriminating again ITs. I politely turned him down.

actually, I'm a graduate of both an IT and a NUI, so not only can talk from experience of employing the graduates, have also experience of both systems.
a lot of the kids coming out of the IT wouldn't survive in a "college".
there's far less hand holding and giving a shit by the staff in the colleges.

Wompa1 · 25-10-2014 12:28AM

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

actually, I'm a graduate of both an IT and a NUI, so not only can talk from experience of employing the graduates, have also experience of both systems.
a lot of the kids coming out of the IT wouldn't survive in a "college".
there's far less hand holding and giving a shit by the staff in the colleges.

but on the flipped of that, there's a lot more possibility to just study and cram before your exams since there isn't the same level of continuous assessment in a university.

Roger Hassenforder · 25-10-2014 12:34AM

Wompa1 wrote: »

but on the flipped of that, there's a lot more possibility to just study and cram before your exams since there isn't the same level of continuous assessment in a university.

couldn't agree more!
i think that's why the kids are so different. in a college you sink or swim.
there seems to be a lot more spoon feeding in the ITs, they catch the kids sooner if they struggle, rather than waiting to fail at the end of the year.

Wompa1 · 25-10-2014 12:49AM

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

couldn't agree more!
i think that's why the kids are so different. in a college you sink or swim.
there seems to be a lot more spoon feeding in the ITs, they catch the kids sooner if they struggle, rather than waiting to fail at the end of the year.

What's the failure rate and subsequent drop out rate after first year in a University vs an IT?

I know both have a high drop out rate in first year.

I've known more people who have failed in University but repeated and passed then in an IT. I have no metrics to go off on that, that's just my observation.

I know a guy who failed exams every single year. Every single year it was the same thing. Went mad during the year...crammed before exams and passed most but failed one or two. Spent the summer studying, didn't have to work. And then passed the repeats and went to the head of the department to ask permission to continue...and every year he did

He's since completed an H-DIP, a Masters and is doing a PhD...

Odds are he's going to get a job in Academics and be shielded from the real world for the rest of his life.

I know a mature student lady who tried the same thing in an IT. It didn't work, she didn't get good marks in her CA. She was absent for the project work.

In my first two years, it was pretty great too because lecturers would report those who were not attending so they'd have their grants stopped. They don't take attendance in University.

Most of this is irrelevant anyways because University or IT. The courses are crap, the lecturers are held to a low standard and the system is crooked.

Yarf Yarf · 25-10-2014 12:51AM

Attendance is taken a lot more seriously in ITs than in universities, as far as I can see. I remember being in lectures and seeing the numbers steadily dropping as the year went on and people decided they couldn't be arsed going into college everyday. Sometimes I'd go into an exam at the end of the year and see faces I didn't even recognize. I think students get marked down for bad attendance in most ITs. On one hand, not marking for attendance makes people take responsibility for their own learning and everyone has different ways of learning anyway. Not everyone gets anything from being in class all the time. On the other hand, students not turning up to class really effects the quality of classes and what can be taken from them, in my experience. If there is barely anyone there, there isn't really much chance for any meaningful discussion or anything. This is coupled too with the fact that so many people in universities cram before exams so any classes during the year can be quite low on in class debate anyway due to the fact that it's so easy to get away with doing nothing all year until two weeks before exams, so no one bothers doing the reading or anything.

Wompa1 · 25-10-2014 12:59AM

Yarf Yarf wrote: »

I think students get marked down for bad attendance in most ITs.

Some IT's only use third parties for grading. Some grade themselves and then have external examiners grade. Unfortunately, the latter can grade harshly if they don't like a student or if say they had poor attendance. From what I recall anyways

chrissb8 · 25-10-2014 02:46AM

College for a lot of courses is a waste of time. I would rather it all compressed into 3 years. At least then I'd be concentrated. I just find 1 class at 9am then the next at 1pm is demotivating. You can never build up momentum. I understand it's upto me to stay committed and sure yeah I could be doing some college work in between lectures. There is only so much you can do though . Too much free time is ultimately the problem with college. It angers me to think they put on a front of educational excellence when all I feel is that they're just dragging things out things to maximize profit. Not putting down what I'm learning. Just why can't it be done quicker.

Paulownia · 25-10-2014 04:14AM

chrissb8 wrote: »

College for a lot of courses is a waste of time. I would rather it all compressed into 3 years. At least then I'd be concentrated. I just find 1 class at 9am then the next at 1pm is demotivating. You can never build up momentum. I understand it's upto me to stay committed and sure yeah I could be doing some college work in between lectures. There is only so much you can do though . Too much free time is ultimately the problem with college. It angers me to think they put on a front of educational excellence when all I feel is that they're just dragging things out things to maximize profit. Not putting down what I'm learning. Just why can't it be done quicker.

Do all your classmates feel the same as you do? Perhaps you should have chosen a course that was more challenging.
A difficulty of teaching any group anything is striking a balance between keeping the brighter students engaged and bringing along those who need more help and this is quite challenging at third level.
In theory students doing full time courses are supposed to be studying themselves in time when they are not attending lectures. In reality many are, in fact , working to pay their way through college.
With regard to your suggestion that colleges stretch out courses for maximum profit bear in mind that the lecturers are teaching other groups when not teaching you and in IT colleges their workload is often enormous compared to a university lecturer. A university lecturer is supposedly following a research programme as well as a teaching role.
The system is not perfect but better than you think. If you feel the workload is insufficient for your needs discuss it with your lecturers and perhaps they would suggest some extra research projects

blow69 · 25-10-2014 05:01AM

It really does not matter if you studied at an IT or University.

At the end of the day, in an interview, if you can talk the talk and really understand what the job is about/what they want from the candidate/if you really can add value to the company i.e. if you really worked hard throughout your degree, your educational background is not important.

This IT V. University debate is bullsh*t. Not everyone is destined to study Medicine or Law. Sometimes people want to undergo courses that are applicable to their goals and interests so they can further advance in those fields in the near future, whether it be Sports and Leisure or Archaeology.

Sofiztikated · 25-10-2014 05:21AM

blow69 wrote: »

It really does not matter if you studied at an IT or University.

At the end of the day, in an interview, if you can talk the talk and really understand what the job is about/what they want from the candidate/if you really can add value to the company i.e. if you really worked hard throughout your degree, your educational background is not important.

This IT V. University debate is bullsh*t. Not everyone is destined to study Medicine or Law. Sometimes people want to undergo courses that are applicable to their goals and interests so they can further advance in those fields in the near future, whether it be Sports and Leisure or Archaeology.

Will you be whisht, with your sense and reason. Pick a parish, and beholden unto their beliefs, and bedamned to the other valley.

Paulownia · 25-10-2014 05:50AM

Does anyone ever do any serious research to find out how many third level graduates actually use their education in later life ?
So many students seem to have so little interest in the subjects they are studying one wonders

hatrickpatrick · 25-10-2014 06:24AM

smash wrote: »

There's a problem if it's a nonsense course with no real career at the end which leaves you on the doll and everyone else picks up the tab while you sit at home blaming the government because there's no jobs in the industry.

The idea that the only purpose of college is essentially training for future employment is something I find pretty bizarre. There's more to life, and college has always been about more than this, as has education generally. If the sole purpose of education is to train people to become robots, what exactly was the purpose of learning about anything classical in school for instance? Why get kids to read The Iliad or learn Latin?

Some people have an incredibly boring outlook on life, IMO.

Darkest Horse · 25-10-2014 08:42AM

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

The idea that the only purpose of college is essentially training for future employment is something I find pretty bizarre. There's more to life, and college has always been about more than this, as has education generally. If the sole purpose of education is to train people to become robots, what exactly was the purpose of learning about anything classical in school for instance? Why get kids to read The Iliad or learn Latin?

Some people have an incredibly boring outlook on life, IMO.

It's simple if you think about it. As noble as the notion of a well-rounded education is today, Greek mythology is not likely to put food on the table or a Ferrari in the driveway.

ted1 · 25-10-2014 08:50AM

Hitchens wrote: »

http://businessetc.thejournal.ie/jerry-kennelly-tweak-1744432-Oct2014/

this is one of the things he's saying:

“The regional colleges, as they used to be known, have a lot of courses that are absolutely useless. People spend three years doing what is really a one-year course … it’s a waste of peoples’ time and energy.”

how can he say furthering one's education is useless?

I reckon orts in UCD should be on the useless list

Beaner1 · 25-10-2014 08:55AM

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

actually, I'm a graduate of both an IT and a NUI, so not only can talk from experience of employing the graduates, have also experience of both systems.
a lot of the kids coming out of the IT wouldn't survive in a "college".
there's far less hand holding and giving a shit by the staff in the colleges.

The IT came first I bet. Then a postgraduate in a university to prove something to yourself.

JustAddWater · 25-10-2014 08:55AM

AnonoBoy wrote: »

Hey! Walt Disney Institute of Technology plays a valuable role in the education of cartoon animals throughout the country. I won't hear a word against it.

You're only calling us a cow college because we were founded by a cow

HIB · 25-10-2014 09:46AM

mackg wrote: »

http://www.qualifax.ie/qf/QFPublic/?Mainsec=courses&Subsec=college_details&ID=20

That's a list of the courses in CIT as an example. After a quick perusal I can't see many that are jumping out at me.

Maybe his issue is that a lot more ground could be covered in these courses? Tbf QQI would have approved these courses as having the necessary learning outcomes to be classed as 6/7/8s on the NFQ, the same as their university counterparts.

I don't know to what extent courses are reviewed to ensure they remain relevant in a changing climate or with respect to the latest advancements in the field.

Anecdotally I know of cases where a course was reviewed and altered making the students very pissed off as the "guaranteed questions" on the paper went out the window, but similarly I know of a case where unbelievably outdated material was being delivered on a course due to it not having been revisited in years. Both of these were in different former RTCs.

Tbh we would get a more substantial discussion out of this if the journal's articles were at least as long as a standard primary school essay.

Bar management, hospitality management, tourism. All separate degrees apparently. I think all are 3 year degrees?
Surely they could have rolled this into one degree, with 3 modules.

Roger Hassenforder · 25-10-2014 11:21AM

Beaner1 wrote: »

The IT came first I bet. Then a postgraduate in a university to prove something to yourself.

au contraire, the BSc first in an NUI, then an MSc in an IT
Your losing this...

Sofiztikated · 25-10-2014 04:45PM

HIB wrote: »

Bar management, hospitality management, tourism. All separate degrees apparently. I think all are 3 year degrees?
Surely they could have rolled this into one degree, with 3 modules.

To be fair, yield management, rate achievement, events management, etc in a hospitality management course have little in common with tourism, which would primarily be the advertising, tour operating, transport, etc side, which would have little in common with bar management, the drinks, wines etc side.

Possibly bar and hospitality management could be merged, as they'd share similarities.

mackg · 25-10-2014 05:04PM

HIB wrote: »

Bar management, hospitality management, tourism. All separate degrees apparently. I think all are 3 year degrees?
Surely they could have rolled this into one degree, with 3 modules.

http://courses.cit.ie/index.cfm/page/course/courseId/861

http://courses.cit.ie/index.cfm/page/course/courseId/859

http://courses.cit.ie/index.cfm/page/course/courseId/857

The outcomes look similiar but I imagine the practical elements of the courses and the different types of placement required would stop a single programme being run.

Saying that, I couldn't say for definite that these graduates are the ones struggling to find work, which is definitely what they are geared towards with the practical and placement elements.

Roquentin · 25-10-2014 05:10PM

smash wrote: »

I'd tend to agree with him. There are a lot of ‘Mickey Mouse courses’ out there these days!

Subjects that should really be part of a semester in an overall course are being split into their own course.

the colleges are businesses. i remember a lecturer telling us that what limits the size of the college is the size of the lecture halls. arts is a money scheme for colleges. they make loads of money through.

Frank Lee Midere · 25-10-2014 05:15PM

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

The idea that the only purpose of college is essentially training for future employment is something I find pretty bizarre. There's more to life, and college has always been about more than this, as has education generally. If the sole purpose of education is to train people to become robots, what exactly was the purpose of learning about anything classical in school for instance? Why get kids to read The Iliad or learn Latin?

Some people have an incredibly boring outlook on life, IMO.

Given we are talking about vocational courses that's a bit moot.

I agree education in general shouldn't be just vocational. It's however vocational education which is under discussion here.

Sofiztikated · 25-10-2014 05:20PM

mackg wrote: »

http://courses.cit.ie/index.cfm/page/course/courseId/861

http://courses.cit.ie/index.cfm/page/course/courseId/859

http://courses.cit.ie/index.cfm/page/course/courseId/857

The outcomes look similiar but I imagine the practical elements of the courses and the different types of placement required would stop a single programme being run.

Saying that, I couldn't say for definite that these graduates are the ones struggling to find work, which is definitely what they are geared towards with the practical and placement elements.

You are bang on the money.

The worst part of jobs from these areas is the fact that the pay is just ****e, especially when you take into account the unsocial hours, working bank holidays, working holidays, etc.

Hotel wise, until you hit Operations Manager, Deputy GM, GM roles, you'll be sub €32k. Even after that, the pay isn't hectic.

shuyin1 · 25-10-2014 05:34PM

Would you hire a qualified accountant A)Uni + big 4 trained or B)I.T + big 4 trained? Just curious why there's a perceived excellence attached to Universities or lack of in I.T's. The Big 4 hire extensively from both every year, they wouldn't continue if the caliber wasn't up to standards.

Hitchens · 25-10-2014 05:39PM

anyone figure out yet why Jerry could find only one Irish person to work for him in his 'team'..................from either system?

Talib Fiasco · 25-10-2014 05:48PM

Basket weaving and Jam making 4 lyf baaaiiii.

razorblunt · 25-10-2014 06:20PM

Nonsense article. If you pick a course you have a genuine interest in, get strong results, pick the appropriate company and interview well, you'll get a job.

I would love to see a profile of his emoloyees in Hyderbad to see what shining diamonds of educational institutes they came from.

2nd rate colleges in Ireland?

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