Advertisement
Help Keep Boards Alive. Support us by going ad free today. See here: https://subscriptions.boards.ie/.
https://www.boards.ie/group/1878-subscribers-forum

Private Group for paid up members of Boards.ie. Join the club.
Hi all, please see this major site announcement: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058427594/boards-ie-2026

Ukraine: As it happens.

1242243245247248271

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,247 ✭✭✭✭BoJack Horseman


    Egginacup wrote: »
    No.....are you AWARE that Crimea requested to be readmitted to Russia?
    Are you also aware that provinces of Eastern Ukraine requested the same thing but Vladimir Putin refused and then surrendered his executive powers?

    Are you aware of this?


    I'm aware that a former crime boss Sergey Aksyonov was put into power by Russian military forces without democratic mandate or plebecite.

    He then asked Russia for help.

    Subsequently the puppet regime he established did as they were told.

    The men from Moscow parachuted into take over the eastern oblasts tried the same stunt but it didn't work.

    Vladi did indeed withdraw his official right of invasion to instead rely on the unofficial instead.

    But Eggy..... So what!
    We know the above happened, so why act antagonistic.

    You or any of the Kremlins supporters have still failed to demonstrate why the Kremlins war in Ukraine can be seen as legitimate?


  • Site Banned Posts: 2,922 ✭✭✭Egginacup


    Here's what I'll do.
    Thus far I have been accused of fabrications. I have been accused of being a shill for Moscow. And when all the "Beavis and Butthead" snipes have been played out, I have been accused of being delusional, anti-American, a gay-basher...an enemy of democracy. And all this purely for questioning the narrative. All this for pointing out simple truths, contradictions and expressing doubt. Notwithstanding, I have elucidated the more obvious machinations at work within the framework of this Ukraine debacle only for them to be either scoffed at, ignored or reheated as a bone of contention. Gandalf....while contentious, dogmatic and intransigent, does actually display some semblance of intellect.....which makes me wonder if I'm being played. Others on here purely sound like tin cans in a washing machine.

    So, without further ado, and actually at the request of Mr. Gandalf I would like to present a recent piece by Mr. Robert Parry. For those who are unaware, Robert Parry is a Polk Award winning investigative journalist. He blew open the entire Iran-Contra episode and defended vilified colleagues especially with regards to the El-Mozote Massacre. He is more qualified to shed light on the Ukrainian "crisis" than any of us.

    I would like any of you to follow all the links within his piece and tell me if you are doubtful, suspicious or incredulous of his sources, observations, and ultimate conclusions.


    High Cost of Bad Journalism on Ukraine (by Robert Parry)

    The costs of the mainstream U.S. media’s wildly anti-Moscow bias in the Ukraine crisis are adding up, as the Obama administration has decided to react to alleged “Russian aggression” by investing as much as $1 trillion in modernizing the U.S. nuclear weapons arsenal.
    On Monday, a typically slanted New York Times article justified these modernization plans by describing “Russia on the warpath” and adding: “Congress has expressed less interest in atomic reductions than looking tough in Washington’s escalating confrontation with Moscow.”
    But the Ukraine crisis has been a textbook case of the U.S. mainstream media misreporting the facts of a foreign confrontation and then misinterpreting the meaning of the events, a classic case of “garbage in, garbage out.” The core of the false mainstream narrative is that Russian President Vladimir Putin instigated the crisis as an excuse to reclaim territory for the Russian Empire.
    While that interpretation of events has been the cornerstone of Official Washington’s “group think,” the reality always was that Putin favored maintaining the status quo in Ukraine. He had no plans to “invade” Ukraine and was satisfied with the elected government of President Viktor Yanukovych. Indeed, when the crisis heated up last February, Putin was distracted by the Sochi Winter Olympics.
    Rather than Putin’s “warmongering” – as the Times said in the lead-in to another Monday article – the evidence is clear that it was the United States and the European Union that initiated this confrontation in a bid to pull Ukraine out of Russia’s sphere of influence and into the West’s orbit.
    This was a scheme long in the making, but the immediate framework for the crisis took shape a year ago when influential U.S. neocons set their sights on Ukraine and Putin after Putin helped defuse a crisis in Syria by persuading President Barack Obama to set aside plans to bomb Syrian government targets over a disputed Sarin gas attack and instead accept Syria’s willingness to surrender its entire chemical weapons arsenal.
    But the neocons and their “liberal interventionist” allies had their hearts set on another “shock and awe” campaign with the goal of precipitating another “regime change” against a Middle East government disfavored by Israel. Putin also worked with Obama to resolve the dispute over Iran’s nuclear program, averting another neocon dream to “bomb, bomb, bomb Iran.”
    The Despised Putin
    So, Putin suddenly rose to the top of the neocons’ “enemies list” and some prominent neocons quickly detected his vulnerability in Ukraine, a historical route for western invasions of Russia and the scene of extraordinarily bloody fighting during World War II.
    National Endowment for Democracy president Carl Gershman, one of the top neocon paymasters spreading around $100 million a year in U.S. taxpayers’ money, declared in late September 2013 that Ukraine represented “the biggest prize” but beyond that was an opportunity to put Putin “on the losing end not just in the near abroad but within Russia itself.”
    The context for Gershman’s excitement was a European Union offer of an association agreement to Ukraine’s elected President Viktor Yanukovych, but it came with some nasty strings attached, an austerity plan demanded by the International Monetary Fund that would have made the hard lives of the average Ukrainian even harder.
    That prompted Yanukovych to seek a better deal from Putin who offered $15 billion in aid without the IMF’s harsh terms. Yet, once Yanukovych rebuffed the EU plan, his government was targeted by a destabilization campaign that involved scores of political and media projects funded by Gershman’s NED and other U.S. agencies.
    Assistant Secretary of State for European Affairs Victoria Nuland, a neocon holdover who had been an adviser to Vice President Dick Cheney, reminded a group of Ukrainian business leaders that the United States had invested $5 billion in their “European aspirations.” Nuland, wife of prominent neocon Robert Kagan, also showed up at the Maidan square in Kiev passing out cookies to protesters.
    The Maidan protests, reflecting western Ukraine’s desire for closer ties to Europe, also were cheered on by neocon Sen. John McCain, who appeared on a podium with leaders of the far-right Svoboda party under a banner honoring Nazi collaborator Stepan Bandera. A year earlier, the European Parliament had identified Svoboda as professing “racist, anti-Semitic and xenophobic views [that] go against the EU’s fundamental values and principles.”
    Yet, militants from Svoboda and the even more extreme Right Sektor were emerging as the muscle of the Maidan protests, seizing government buildings and hurling firebombs at police. A well-known Ukrainian neo-Nazi leader, Andriy Parubiy, became the commandant of the Maidan’s “self-defense” forces.
    Behind the scenes, Assistant Secretary Nuland was deciding who would take over the Ukrainian government once Yanukovych was ousted. In an intercepted phone call with U.S. Ambassador Geoffrey Pyatt, Nuland crossed off some potential leaders and announced that “Yats” – or Arseniy Yatsenyuk – was her guy.
    The Coup
    On Feb. 20, as the neo-Nazi militias stepped up their attacks on police, a mysterious sniper opened fire on both protesters and police killing scores and bringing the political crisis to a boil. The U.S. news media blamed Yanukovych for the killings though he denied giving such an order and some evidence pointed toward a provocation from the far-right extremists.
    As Estonia’s Foreign Minister Urmas Paet said in another intercepted phone call with EU foreign affairs chief Catherine Asthon, “there is a stronger and stronger understanding that behind snipers it was not Yanukovych, it was somebody from the new coalition.”
    But the sniper shootings led Yanukovych to agree on Feb. 21 to a deal guaranteed by three European countries – France, Germany and Poland – that he would surrender much of his power and move up elections so he could be voted out of office. He also assented to U.S. demands that he pull back his police.
    That last move, however, prompted the neo-Nazi militias to overrun the presidential buildings on Feb. 22 and force Yanukovych’s officials to flee for their lives. Then, rather than seeking to enforce the Feb. 21 agreement, the U.S. State Department promptly declared the coup regime “legitimate” and blamed everything on Yanukovych and Putin.
    Nuland’s choice, Yatsenyuk, was made prime minister and the neo-Nazis were rewarded for their crucial role by receiving several ministries, including national security headed by Parubiy. The parliament also voted to ban Russian as an official language (though that was later rescinded), and the IMF austerity demands were pushed through by Yatsenyuk. Not surprisingly, ethnic Russians in the south and east, the base of Yanukovych’s support, began resisting what they regarded as the illegitimate coup regime.
    To blame this crisis on Putin simply ignores the facts and defies logic. To presume that Putin instigated the ouster of Yanukovych in some convoluted scheme to seize territory requires you to believe that Putin got the EU to make its reckless association offer, organized the mass protests at the Maidan, convinced neo-Nazis from western Ukraine to throw firebombs at police, and manipulated Gershman, Nuland and McCain to coordinate with the coup-makers – all while appearing to support Yanukovych’s idea for new elections within Ukraine’s constitutional structure.
    Though such a crazy conspiracy theory would make people in tinfoil hats blush, this certainty is at the heart of what every “smart” person in Official Washington believes. If you dared to suggest that Putin was actually distracted by the Sochi Olympics last February, was caught off guard by the events in Ukraine, and reacted to a Western-inspired crisis on his border (including his acceptance of Crimea’s request to be readmitted to Russia), you would be immediately dismissed as “a stooge of Moscow.”
    Such is how mindless “group think” works in Washington. All the people who matter jump on the bandwagon and smirk at anyone who questions how wise it is to be rolling downhill in some disastrous direction.
    But the pols and pundits who appear on U.S. television spouting the conventional wisdom are always the winners in this scenario. They get to look tough, standing up to villains like Yanukovych and Putin and siding with the saintly Maidan protesters. The neo-Nazi brown shirts are whited out of the picture and any Ukrainian who objected to the U.S.-backed coup regime finds a black hat firmly glued on his or her head.
    For the neocons, there are both financial and ideological benefits. By shattering the fragile alliance that had evolved between Putin and Obama over Syria and Iran, the neocons seized greater control over U.S. policies in the Middle East and revived the prospects for violent “regime change.”
    On a more mundane level – by stirring up a new Cold War – the neocons generate more U.S. government money for military contractors who bestow a portion on Washington think tanks that provide cushy jobs for neocons when they are out of government.
    The Losers
    The worst losers are the people of Ukraine, most tragically the ethnic Russians in eastern Ukraine, thousands of whom have died from a combination of heavy artillery fire by the Ukrainian army on residential areas followed by street fighting led by brutal neo-Nazi militias who were incorporated into Kiev’s battle plans. [See Consortiumnews.com’s “Ukraine’s ‘Romantic’ Neo-Nazi Storm Troopers.”]
    The devastation of eastern Ukraine, which has driven an estimated one million Ukrainians out of their homes, has left parts of this industrial region in ruins. Of course, in the U.S. media version, it’s all Putin’s fault for deceiving these ethnic Russians with “propaganda” about neo-Nazis and then inducing these deluded individuals to resist the “legitimate” authorities in Kiev.
    Notably, America’s righteous “responsibility to protect” crowd, which demanded that Obama begin airstrikes in Syria a year ago, swallowed its moral whistles when it came to the U.S.-backed Kiev regime butchering ethnic Russians in eastern Ukraine (or for that matter, when Israeli forces slaughtered Palestinians in Gaza).
    However, beyond the death and destruction in eastern Ukraine, the meddling by Nuland, Gershman and others has pushed all of Ukraine toward financial catastrophe. As “The Business Insider” reported on Sept. 21, “Ukraine Is on the Brink of Total Economic Collapse.”
    Author Walter Kurtz wrote: “Those who have spent any time in Ukraine during the winter know how harsh the weather can get. And at these [current] valuations, hryvnia [Ukraine’s currency] isn’t going to buy much heating fuel from abroad. …
    “Inflation rate is running above 14% and will spike sharply from here in the next few months if the currency weakness persists. Real wages are collapsing. … Finally, Ukraine’s fiscal situation is unraveling.”
    In other words, the already suffering Ukrainians from the west, east and center of the country can expect to suffer a great deal more. They have been made expendable pawns in a geopolitical chess game played by neocon masters and serving interests far from Lviv, Donetsk and Kiev.
    But other victims from these latest machinations by the U.S. political/media elite will include the American taxpayers who will be expected to foot the bill for the new Cold War launched in reaction to Putin’s imaginary scheme to instigate the Ukraine crisis so he could reclaim territory of the Russian Empire.
    As nutty as that conspiracy theory is, it is now one of the key reasons why the American people have to spend $1 trillion to modernize the nation’s nuclear arsenal, rather than scaling back the thousands of U.S. atomic weapons to around 900, as had been planned.
    Or as one supposed expert, Gary Samore at Harvard, explained to the New York Times: “The most fundamental game changer is Putin’s invasion of Ukraine. That has made any measure to reduce the stockpile unilaterally politically impossible.”
    Thus, you can see how hyperbolic journalism and self-interested punditry can end up costing the American taxpayers vast sums of money and contributing to a more dangerous world.












    And so, for me to suggest that the sacrifice of Ukrainian lives is part and parcel of the domination of Russia and for this to be met with derision, even as bought and paid for stooges like Poroshenko are fleecing The Ukraine and laughing at the serfs and eyeing up a purchase of a football team....and this is called being a "Putinbot" is a bit of an eye-opener. Having worked in New York as an engineer for 7 years I often wonder about a former colleague of mine, Dmitriy or "Dima" who was from Lviv and how his mother is now a wreck of herself.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,247 ✭✭✭✭BoJack Horseman


    So another post saying "Nazi" a dozen times as if the Russian forces in Ukraine are defenders of liberal democracy themselves and pointless attacks america on an unrelated tangent.

    Your consistent Eggy, all else struggles, but you are consistent.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,458 ✭✭✭✭gandalf


    Oh Eggy thats not proof its an article by a man living on the glory of his past, from 1984. His website has been linked to before on one of the Ukraine threads. Again like you and Elmer he has added one and one and is now come up with 100 as the result.

    The website is http://consortiumnews.com/ and just a quick flick through the articles show it to be a conspiracy theorists wet dream.

    Again Eggy try harder please.


  • Site Banned Posts: 2,922 ✭✭✭Egginacup


    I'm aware that a former crime boss Sergey Aksyonov was put into power by Russian military forces without democratic mandate or plebecite.

    He then asked Russia for help.

    Subsequently the puppet regime he established did as they were told.

    The men from Moscow parachuted into take over the eastern oblasts tried the same stunt but it didn't work.

    Vladi did indeed withdraw his official right of invasion to instead rely on the unofficial instead.

    But Eggy..... So what!
    We know the above happened, so why act antagonistic.

    You or any of the Kremlins supporters have still failed to demonstrate why the Kremlins war in Ukraine can be seen as legitimate?


    Aksenyov doesn't strike me as "criminal businessman" as you allege. I'm sure he's a fairly beefy and ignorant suit....most ex-boxers are. But his detractors are skull-smashers in Kiev. The guy is probably a brainless thug but look who are calling him that......affiliates of Svoboda and the Right Sektor.

    Are your knuckleduster boys cleaner than those they've been paid to oppose?


  • Advertisement
  • Site Banned Posts: 2,922 ✭✭✭Egginacup


    gandalf wrote: »
    Oh Eggy thats not proof its an article by a man living on the glory of his past, from 1984. His website has been linked to before on one of the Ukraine threads. Again like you and Elmer he has added one and one and is now come up with 100 as the result.

    The website is http://consortiumnews.com/ and just a quick flick through the articles show it to be a conspiracy theorists wet dream.

    Again Eggy try harder please.

    OK, Gandalf, I'll bite. What in Parry's article did you find fallacious?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,458 ✭✭✭✭gandalf


    Egginacup wrote: »
    OK, Gandalf, I'll bite. What in Parry's article did you find fallacious?

    The whole thing my friend. It reads like a script from the Kremlin.

    Then just looking at his website his coverage of the Ukrainian situation is totally one sided. A proper investigative journalist should be trying to see both sides of a story. He is looking at one side and using it to attack the US government.

    (btw you should really post a link to the article you are quoting, normally it is required by the organisation who wrote it and typically it is good form to give them proper credit)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    Because holes in winglet

    (Having spent several hours looking at the pictures and conspiracy theories have to say next to none mention the tail plain damage ,now id hardly make a claim stating i knew what direction and exactly what happened based off a single photo ,what is it exactly are you seeing on the tail plain that suggests what happened ,
    Havent seen many civilian airliners shot down to go off either)


    It was USSR

    USSR /Russia/the Federation

    Its all the same


  • Site Banned Posts: 2,922 ✭✭✭Egginacup


    So another post saying "Nazi" a dozen times as if the Russian forces in Ukraine are defenders of liberal democracy themselves and pointless attacks america on an unrelated tangent.

    Your consistent Eggy, all else struggles, but you are consistent.

    No,

    Can you refute any of the premises? Picking words from an article and hanging on them does not a discussion make.
    All I am hearing now are petty jibes directed at me (courtesy of you) and glib dismissals from Gandalf directed at Parry.

    As of yet I have not heard, nor read, anything remotely resembling a factual rebuttal, or an intelligent debate. Nothing but a veering from straight questions and towards phrases like "you ought to do better" or a dismissal of the author of an article without actually taking apart what he or she has written.

    Gandalf, you insisted I back up what I've said with links, proof, sources, what not.
    Well I'm not well positioned to record conversations and take photos of the inner sancta of those who are facilitating this "pivot to Asia" [it's a Pentagon term]. I have, however, directed you to the analysis of a highly respected journalist.

    Without even reading what he had to write you besmirched him as a has-been who sought fame purely for stoking the embers during the Reagan years.
    Now this, quite frankly, is the talk of a man who has no interest in anything other than his own agenda.
    If Daniel Ellsberg wrote an article with which you disagreed..or better still the conclusions of which you disapproved would you shabbily and immaturely dismiss the findings with a low-grade retort like "He shot his load during Nixon for a bit of fame! Who gives a fcuk what he says now" ?

    Is that your best?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,458 ✭✭✭✭gandalf


    Eggy I commend the fact that you are posting some information at last but I have explained why I believe Robert Parry has an agenda and he is using his articles on his site to drive this. If he is such a good journalist surely a mainstream media organisation somewhere would have picked him up. They haven't. Now you are going to counter that they are in on the big conspiracy, which quite frankly is rubbish. How can multiple media organisations, in multiple jurisdictions with multiple and varied owners be on message. They can't and they won't.

    Now you're retort will probably be that I am a US stooge. Again as I said in another thread, search under my user name in Politics under the subject "Iraq" and you will see I was scathing in my criticism of the US in 2003.

    We Irish do not like to see weaker neighbours being preyed upon by larger more militaristic ones as is happening with Ukraine from Russia. We know what it is like to be in the sphere of an Empire minded country and we paid a heavy price to break away from their direct influence. We now see this mirrored in the Ukraine and unlike you we see the bogeyman for who it is and that is Vladimir Putins Russia.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 683 ✭✭✭conditioned games


    Egginacup wrote: »
    No,

    Can you refute any of the premises? Picking words from an article and hanging on them does not a discussion make.
    All I am hearing now are petty jibes directed at me (courtesy of you) and glib dismissals from Gandalf directed at Parry.

    As of yet I have not heard, nor read, anything remotely resembling a factual rebuttal, or an intelligent debate. Nothing but a veering from straight questions and towards phrases like "you ought to do better" or a dismissal of the author of an article without actually taking apart what he or she has written.

    Gandalf, you insisted I back up what I've said with links, proof, sources, what not.
    Well I'm not well positioned to record conversations and take photos of the inner sancta of those who are facilitating this "pivot to Asia" [it's a Pentagon term]. I have, however, directed you to the analysis of a highly respected journalist.

    Without even reading what he had to write you besmirched him as a has-been who sought fame purely for stoking the embers during the Reagan years.
    Now this, quite frankly, is the talk of a man who has no interest in anything other than his own agenda.
    If Daniel Ellsberg wrote an article with which you disagreed..or better still the conclusions of which you disapproved would you shabbily and immaturely dismiss the findings with a low-grade retort like "He shot his load during Nixon for a bit of fame! Who gives a fcuk what he says now" ?

    Is that your best?

    You wont get common sense on here. Most have bought the west story that russia is bad and US is good on here. Even though Crimea had a majority that didn't want to stay part of ukraine and left by vote those on here and in the US have been jumping up and down ever since.

    Likewise half of Ukraine want to be seperate but if they vote for independence it is ok for most on here for those people to be attacked by west ukraine with US weapons. It's always the same story with the USA happy to use a country to protect its corrupt petrodollar.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 28 Old boardie22


    You wont get common sense on here. Most have bought the west story that russia is bad and US is good on here. Even though Crimea had a majority that didn't want to stay part of ukraine and left by vote those on here and in the US have been jumping up and down ever since.

    Likewise half of Ukraine want to be seperate but if they vote for independence it is ok for most on here for those people to be attacked by west ukraine with US weapons. It's always the same story with the USA happy to use a country to protect its corrupt petrodollar.

    Agree with this apart from the "most" people bit... Although shills on here would have you believe that, I think actually "most" don't believe this rhetoric what so ever... I think that would be to tar most as stupid or easily fooled.. I've found most people I've spoken to about this conflict and other such craziness in the world that actually most not just believe, but know There's alot of lies/misreporting going on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling



    Likewise half of Ukraine want to be seperate but if they vote for independence it is ok for most on here for those people to be attacked by west ukraine with US weapons. It's always the same story with the USA happy to use a country to protect its corrupt petrodollar.

    Half of Ukraine doesn't want to be independent from the rest of the country,
    And west Ukraine didn't just decide to attack the east either,

    Ukraine doesnt possess American weapons they use Russian weapons and equipment


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,900 ✭✭✭InTheTrees


    You wont get common sense on here. Most have bought the west story that russia is bad.

    A repressive regime in power in russia is a bad thing.

    Its pretty hard to argue against isnt it?

    I mean how do you defend state control of the media in russia?

    The only response to that in this thread is nonsensical babbling about "the west".


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 667 ✭✭✭S.R.


    InTheTrees wrote: »
    A repressive regime in power in russia is a bad thing.

    Its pretty hard to argue against isnt it?

    I mean how do you defend state control of the media in russia?

    The only response to that in this thread is nonsensical babbling about "the west".


    There is no repressive regime in Russia, stop making up stories.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,900 ✭✭✭InTheTrees


    S.R. wrote: »
    There is no repressive regime in Russia, stop making up stories.

    LOL!!

    Wait...

    You are being sarcastic right?

    :pac:


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 667 ✭✭✭S.R.


    InTheTrees wrote: »
    LOL!!

    Wait...

    You are being sarcastic right?

    :pac:


    Yeah, I am being sarcastic.


    On 21st Sep so called Peace Rally was held in Moscow by opposition. Tens of thousands people including opposition leaders like Nemtsov, Kasyanov etc. gathered to protest against war in Ukraine and against Putin. There were numerous ukranian flags in crowd.
    People marched through streets of Moscow and nobody ate them. Even Vlad the Vampire did not bother to come out and drink protesters' blood. Very strange behaviour for "repressive" regime, isn't it?

    On the same day there were protests in other russian cities too. In Petrozavodsk, Perm, Novosibirsk, Saratov, Ekaterinburg etc. protesters also survived with no harm from "repressive" regime.

    Now have a look at Ukraine, where supposed to be freedom, democracy and other american and EU bullsh*t lovers rule.

    On 27th Sep so called Peace Rally was held in Kharkov. Around 50 people gathered to protest against war, against Kiev regime. How did Kiev students from american democracy college act? What did happen? Meeting was dispersed by ukrainian police, around 20-25 protesters detained, protesters were called names by officials, for example by Minister of Internal Affairs Avakov.

    Lets have a look at how ukranians react when they see russian flag in town.
    Old woman has russian flag hanged out of window. Just like you can see flags of different countries on windows in the streets of Dublin. Crowd gathered under her windows, sweared at her, called her names and rang police.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RuPndGWEpOw


  • Site Banned Posts: 2,922 ✭✭✭Egginacup


    InTheTrees wrote: »
    LOL!!

    Wait...

    You are being sarcastic right?

    :pac:


    There's a repressive regime because you were told there was one. Don't bother looking into it. Don't bother talking to any Russians just take it as fact from Sky News.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 667 ✭✭✭S.R.


    Nice pics of ukranian soldiers and volunteers fighting against Putin's repressive regime.
    Angels of democracy, are not they?

    https://vk.com/album-48462657_203232872


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 667 ✭✭✭S.R.


    Last night in Kharkov a statue of Vladimir Lenin was demolished by ukranian democrats. One man tried to stop crowd and was democratically beaten.

    http://colonelcassad.livejournal.com/1817640.html

    Nice pic of crowd with germanic rune used by fascists in Hitler's Germany.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 240 ✭✭1st dalkey dalkey


    Trying to keep the east within Ukraine is like trying to keep a player on your team who wants you to lose. It is counter-productive.
    Let them go. In fact facilitate their removal, withdraw all services and facilities, re-draw the borders and let them look after themselves.
    Once you have a homogeneous country you will be free to take your own course, whatever that may be.
    Such a result will surely suit those others on here who feel the east was badly treated.
    It might not suit Putin, who wants an excuse to interfere in Ukraine. One he would lose if the east was removed from Ukraine.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 551 ✭✭✭sparksfly


    Trying to keep the east within Ukraine is like trying to keep a player on your team who wants you to lose. It is counter-productive.
    Let them go. In fact facilitate their removal, withdraw all services and facilities, re-draw the borders and let them look after themselves.
    Once you have a homogeneous country you will be free to take your own course, whatever that may be.
    Such a result will surely suit those others on here who feel the east was badly treated.
    It might not suit Putin, who wants an excuse to interfere in Ukraine. One he would lose if the east was removed from Ukraine.

    Not necessarily, the US and its cronies have a habit of de-stablising peaceful countries.

    Putin would have no desire to interfere in Ukraine if his interests there were not suddenly in the hands of a western installed fascist regime.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,247 ✭✭✭✭BoJack Horseman


    sparksfly wrote: »
    Putin would have no desire to interfere in Ukraine if his interests there were not suddenly in the hands of a western installed fascist regime.

    "His intereats".
    Goes to the heart of the curiosity that some think the Russian perma-president can decide what parts of neighbouring lands he sees as legitimate conquest.

    Speaking of fascist regime.
    The FSB boyz who self installed themselves in charge of Donetsk & Luhansk still have yet to get around to holding an election in the cities they have seized.

    Though it may take a while.
    The lads don't seem to take kindly to the ballot box.
    article-urn:publicid:ap.org:8b7c00954af04e5c83833b0356607459-6PqO3ODBpHSK2-78_634x443.jpg


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 240 ✭✭1st dalkey dalkey


    It is certainly true that over the years in places like central and south america, south east asia etc., the USA has interfered where it had no right to. It is also true that Russia/USSR did the same thing.
    They are similar beasts, each with a belief that it's interests are greater then those of smaller, weaker countries. While both are politically different from Nazi Germany, both have the same 'uber alles' attitude.
    I condemn both of them and their interference in the internal affairs of free nations.

    Ukraine had an election, every bit as legitimate as that of Crimea if not more so. It is their right to choose left wing, right wing or no wing.

    My post merely suggested that, when faced with an internal rejection of the democratic will, you must decide whether war is the answer or whether partition would be better for the majority of the people. In my view of this case, it would be better for the future of Ukraine if they expelled the rejectionists and proceeded alone.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,444 ✭✭✭Elmer Blooker


    S.R. wrote: »
    Nice pics of ukranian soldiers and volunteers fighting against Putin's repressive regime.
    Angels of democracy, are not they?

    https://vk.com/album-48462657_203232872
    It seems there are now divisions between the army and "activists" aka neo nazis. Russia doesn't even have to invade Ukraine - the place is falling apart just like everywhere that the US manipulates and destabilizes.
    http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/politicians-activists-slam-national-guard-protest-as-unpatriotic-367935.html


  • Site Banned Posts: 2,922 ✭✭✭Egginacup


    It seems there are now divisions between the army and "activists" aka neo nazis. Russia doesn't even have to invade Ukraine - the place is falling apart just like everywhere that the US manipulates and destabilizes.
    http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/politicians-activists-slam-national-guard-protest-as-unpatriotic-367935.html


    Ukraine, as we once knew it is gone. Destroyed. Finished.
    There are those who claim that Russia in general, and Putin in particular are responsible for this state of affairs but they are mistaken, completely.

    The US orchestrated the coup in Kiev. That's indisputable. The popular narrative is that Putin invaded and annexed The Crimea. This is merely a technicality. However many Russian military personnel who were in The Crimea prior to the Kiev coup did not exceed numbers agreed for years prior. Therefore there was no invasion. NONE. And for those who suggest that the Crimeans voted "at the barrel of a gun" to return to Russia, I would like to ask this question:

    If it generally take 3, maybe 4, dodgy cops hours if not days to beat, intimidate and extract a confession, signature or some other acquiescence out of a criminal suspect against his will then can you please explain how 20,000 Russian agents managed to accomplish the same feat against 2.5 million people?
    Did they go door to door? That's one soldier per 100 Crimeans. Did the 100 line up one by one with the one soldier's gun to their head and simply nod, put an x in the box and then slope off home?

    Not one said "fcuk off Russki", was subsequently shot, and there were no witnesses....and the rest just stepped over the corpse, said nothing and voted the way the kid with the AK-47 said?
    What ever happened to those 100's of thousands who would have stayed at home rather than vote against their will for something they didn't want?
    Were they (2 million) dragged from their houses and forced to vote by a bunch of soldiers?
    If a MILLION people were forced at gunpoint to vote against their will...which is utterly laughable...then now that they have been spared a bullet for voting against their will, why aren't they rising now? Where is the Crimean "resistance"?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 31,119 ✭✭✭✭snubbleste


    A column of 32 tanks, 16 howitzer artillery systems and trucks carrying ammunition and fighters has crossed into eastern Ukraine from Russia, the Kiev military said on Friday.
    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/nov/07/ukraine-russian-military-column-east


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,073 ✭✭✭Xios


    snubbleste wrote: »

    So this is a repeat of South Ossetia. Insight sepratism, fund and support rebels, force a ceasefire, move in russia peacekeepers to solidify new borders. Although this time the excecution seems very messy and haphazard.

    A common idea is that Russia is attempting to grab the land between Rusia and Crimea, taking complete control of the Azov Sea. It seems like a tactical goal to me and only part of a much larger strategy, which i can only guess at.

    My guess would be their goal is to cripple the ukrainian economy and keep it as a failed state as a buffer between russia and the west. So it will be an equivalent to China and north korea. (By this i mean, North Korea is china's whipping boy in a sense, bit of a generalisation though)


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 31,119 ✭✭✭✭snubbleste


    Putin planned Crimea annexation
    Vladimir Putin has revealed he planned the annexation of Crimea four days before unidentified gunmen appeared in the region. In a meeting, held during the night of 22-23 February 2014, with the heads of Russia's special services as well as its defence ministry.
    "We finished about seven in the morning. When we were parting, I told all my colleagues, 'We are forced to begin the work to bring Crimea back into Russia'."
    Four days later, on 27 February, armed men seized the local parliament and local government buildings in Crimea, raising the Russian flag.
    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-31796226


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 240 ✭✭1st dalkey dalkey


    Egginacup wrote: »
    Ukraine, as we once knew it is gone. Destroyed. Finished.
    There are those who claim that Russia in general, and Putin in particular are responsible for this state of affairs but they are mistaken, completely.

    The US orchestrated the coup in Kiev. That's indisputable. The popular narrative is that Putin invaded and annexed The Crimea. This is merely a technicality. However many Russian military personnel who were in The Crimea prior to the Kiev coup did not exceed numbers agreed for years prior. Therefore there was no invasion. NONE. And for those who suggest that the Crimeans voted "at the barrel of a gun" to return to Russia, I would like to ask this question:

    If it generally take 3, maybe 4, dodgy cops hours if not days to beat, intimidate and extract a confession, signature or some other acquiescence out of a criminal suspect against his will then can you please explain how 20,000 Russian agents managed to accomplish the same feat against 2.5 million people?
    Did they go door to door? That's one soldier per 100 Crimeans. Did the 100 line up one by one with the one soldier's gun to their head and simply nod, put an x in the box and then slope off home?

    Not one said "fcuk off Russki", was subsequently shot, and there were no witnesses....and the rest just stepped over the corpse, said nothing and voted the way the kid with the AK-47 said?
    What ever happened to those 100's of thousands who would have stayed at home rather than vote against their will for something they didn't want?
    Were they (2 million) dragged from their houses and forced to vote by a bunch of soldiers?
    If a MILLION people were forced at gunpoint to vote against their will...which is utterly laughable...then now that they have been spared a bullet for voting against their will, why aren't they rising now? Where is the Crimean "resistance"?

    1) There was no coup in Kiev. The president abandoned his post. The rest of the government, all properly elected, then elected a temporary replacement pending a new election. This election was held and the new president elected. He was initially welcomed by Putin, until he showed some signs of independent thinking. Then he was deemed fascist by Putin. Apparently anyone who doesn't obey Putin is a fascist.
    2) Nobody knows what happened during the 'election' in Crimea and nobody knows how many voted or how they voted. We know what Putin claims, but experience has told us to be skeptical of that. After all, he initially said that there was no Russian involvement in Crimea, only to be seen on Russian television giving medals to those involved.
    3) Ukraine is a sovereign country, free to make it's own way in the world. It can join any grouping it wishes to, or none. It can hang out with conservatives or radicals as it chooses. The rest of the world may be disappointed, but have no right to interfere militarily. Tell your president this.


Advertisement