Ukraine: As it happens.

Egginacup

1st dalkey dalkey wrote: »

1) There was no coup in Kiev. The president abandoned his post. The rest of the government, all properly elected, then elected a temporary replacement pending a new election. This election was held and the new president elected. He was initially welcomed by Putin, until he showed some signs of independent thinking. Then he was deemed fascist by Putin. Apparently anyone who doesn't obey Putin is a fascist.
2) Nobody knows what happened during the 'election' in Crimea and nobody knows how many voted or how they voted. We know what Putin claims, but experience has told us to be skeptical of that. After all, he initially said that there was no Russian involvement in Crimea, only to be seen on Russian television giving medals to those involved.
3) Ukraine is a sovereign country, free to make it's own way in the world. It can join any grouping it wishes to, or none. It can hang out with conservatives or radicals as it chooses. The rest of the world may be disappointed, but have no right to interfere militarily. Tell your president this.

[SIZE=-1]April 11, 2011 – A Kiev Post article entitled “Ukraine Hopes to Get $1.5 Billion from IMF in June” states that the loan is dependent on pension cuts while “maintaining cooperation with the IMF, since it influences the country’s interaction with other international financial institutions and private investors” and further that the “attraction of $850 million from the World Bank in 2011, depended on cooperation with the IMF.” Well, that about says it all – if Ukraine played ball. then the loan money would pour in.
November 21, 2013 – fast forward to the EU summit in Lithuania when President Yanuyovch embarrassed the European Union by rejecting its Agreement in favor of joining Russia’s Common Union with other Commonwealth Independent States.
November 27, 2013 – it was not until February 23, 2014 when Anonymous Ukraine hackers released a series of emails from a Lithuanian government advisor to opposition leader and former boxer Vitaly Klitschko regarding plans to destabilize Ukraine; for example:
“Our American friends promise to pay a visit in the coming days, we may even see Nuland or someone from the Congress.” 12/7/2013
“Your colleague has arrived ….his services may be required even after the country is destabilized.” 12/14/2013
“I think we’ve paved the way for more radical escalation of the situation. Isn’t it time to proceed with more decisive action?” 1/9/2014
November 29, 2013 – well-orchestrated protestors were already in the streets of Kiev as European Commission President Jose Manual Barroso announced that the EU would “not accept Russia’s veto” of the Agreement.
December 13, 2013 – As if intent on providing incontrovertible evidence of US involvement in Ukraine, Assistant US Secretary of State for Europe and Eurasia Victoria Nuland proudly told a meeting of the International Business Conference sponsored by the US-Ukrainian Foundation that the US had ‘invested’ more than $5 billion and ‘five years worth of work and preparation” in achieving what she called Ukraine’s ‘European aspirations.” Having just returned from her third trip to Ukraine in five weeks, Nuland boasted of her ‘coordinated high level diplomacy’ and a more than two hour ‘tough conversation’ with Yanukovych. Already familiar with Nuland as former Secretary Clinton’s spokesperson at State, one can imagine her discourteous tone and manner when she says she made it “absolutely clear” to Yanukovych that the US required “immediate steps” …to “get back into conversation with Europe and the IMF.” While Western media have portrayed Yanukovych as a ‘weak’ leader, Nuland’s description of a ‘tough’ meeting can only mean that he resisted her threats and intimidations. In what must have been a touching moment, Nuland spoke about a show of force by government police on demonstrators who “sang hymns and prayed for peace.”
What Nuland did not reveal on December 13 was that her meetings with ‘key Ukrainian stakeholders’ included neo-Nazi Svoboda party leader Oleh Tyahnybok and prime minister wannabe Arsenly Yatsenyuk of the Fatherland Party. At about the same time Nuland was wooing fascist extremists, Sen. John McCain (R-Az) and Sen. Chris Murphy (D- Conn) shared the stage in Kiev with Tyahnybok offering their support and opposition to the sitting government. The Svoboda party which has roots with extreme vigilante and anti-semitic groups has since received at least three high level cabinet posts in the interim government including deputy prime minister. There is no doubt that the progenies of west Ukraine’s historic neo-fascist thugs that fought with Hitler are now aligned with the US as represented by Victoria Nuland.
January 24, 2014 – President Yanukoyvch identified foreign elements participating in Kiev protests warning that armed radicals were a danger to peaceful citizens. Independent news agencies also reported that “not all of Kiev’s population backs opposition rule, which depends mainly on a group from the former Polish town of Lvov, which holds sway over Kiev downtown – but not the rest of the city.”
January 30, 2014 – The State Department’s website Media Note announced Nuland’s upcoming travel plans that ”In Kyiv, Assistant Secretary Nuland will meet with government officials, opposition leaders, civil society and business leaders to encourage agreement on a new government and plan of action.” In other words, almost a month before President Yanukovych was ousted, the US was planning to rid the world of another independently elected President.
February 4, 2014 – More evidence of Ms. Nuland’s meddling with extremist factions and the high level stakes of war and peace occurred in her taped conversation with U.S. Ambassador to Ukraine Geoffrey Pyatt discussing their calculations of who’s in and who’s out to replace Yanukovych. Note mention of Nazi leader Oleh Tyahnybok. Here are some selected excerpts:
Nuland: “What do you think?”
Pyatt: “I think we’re in play… the [Vitali] Klitsch piece is obviously the complicated electron here especially the announcement of him as deputy prime minister. Your argument to him which you’ll need to make, I think the next phone call we want to set up is exactly the one you made to Yats [Yatsenyuk]. And I’m glad you sort of put him on the spot on where he fits in this scenario and I’m very glad he said what he said in response.”
Nuland: “I don’t think Klitsch should go into government. I don’t think its necessary. I don’t think it’s a good idea.”
Pyatt: “yeah…I mean I guess. You think…what…in terms of him not going into the government, just let him sort of stay out and do his political homework and stuff. I’m just thinking in terms of the process moving ahead, we want to keep the moderate democrats together. The problem is going to be Tyahnybok and his guys. I’m sure that’s what Yanukoyvch is calculating on all this.”
Nuland: “I think Yats is the guy who’s got the economic experience, the governing experience. What he needs is Klitsch and Tyahnybok on the outside and he needs to be talking to them four times a week you know…I think with Klitsch going in at that level working for Yats, it’s not going to work.”
Nuland: “My understanding is that the big three [Yatsenyuk, Klitsch and Tyahnybok] were going in to their own meeting and that Yats was going to offer in that context a three plus one conversation with you.”
Pyatt: “ That’s what he proposed but knowing the dynamic that’s been with them where Klitsch has been top dog; he’s going to take a while to show up at a meeting, he’s probably talking to his guys at this point so I think you reaching out to him will help with the personality management among the three and gives us a chance to move fast on all this stuffand put us behind it before they all sit down and he explains why he doesn’t like it.”
Nuland: … “when I talked to Jeff Feltman this morning, he had a new name for the UN guy …Robert Serry – he’s now gotten both Serry and Ban ki Moon to agree that Serry could come in Monday or Tuesday… so that would be great I think to help glue this thing and have the UN help glue it and you know **** the EU.”
Pyatt: “Exactly. I think we’ve got to do something to make it stick together because you can be pretty sure the Russians will be working behind the scenes. ….Let me work on Klitchko and I think we want to get somebody with an international personality to come out here and help midwife this thing.”
Nuland: ”…Sullivan’s come back to me saying you need Biden and I said probably tomorrow for an” ‘atta’ boy’ and get the deeds to stick so Biden’s willing.”
February 20, 2014 – Foreign ministers from Poland, Germany and France visiting Kiev secured President Yanukovych’s agreement that would commit the government to an interim administration, constitutional reform and new parliamentary and presidential elections. With “no clear sign that EU or US pressure has achieved” the desired effect, opposition leaders rejected Yanukovych’s compromise which would have ended the three month stand-off. Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov called on the German, French and Polish foreign ministers to step in and take responsibility for upholding the deal they helped forge and not let “armed extremists” directly threaten Ukrainian sovereignty.
February 21, 2014 – At a special summit in Brussels, European foreign ministers agreed to adopt sanctions on Ukraine including visa bans and asset freezes. The EU decision followed “immense pressure from the US for the European powers to take punitive action against the Ukrainian regime.” Washington had already imposed travel bans on 20 leading Ukrainians.
February 22, 2014 – An hour after refusing to resign, the Ukrainian Parliament voted, according to Russian president Vladimir Putin, in an unconstitutional action to oust President Yanukovych and that pro-EU forces staged a ‘coup’. Yanukovych departed Kiev in fear for his life.
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Gatling

More propaganda bs

Korat

Is there one of those for East Germany 1989?

Gatling

Korat wrote: »

Is there one of those for East Germany 1989?

Russia is writing a strongly worded letter condemning the annexation of East Germany 25 years ago

gandalf

Ah I see some are still spouting the party line on behalf of the Lubyanka in the After Hours forum.

c_man

Do they get paid per day or per post?

S.R.

Who said people of Crimea were forced to vote in favour of Russia at gunpoint? You were right.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapoza/2015/03/20/one-year-after-russia-annexed-crimea-locals-prefer-moscow-to-kiev/

Egginacup

S.R. wrote: »

Who said people of Crimea were forced to vote in favour of Russia at gunpoint? You were right.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapoza/2015/03/20/one-year-after-russia-annexed-crimea-locals-prefer-moscow-to-kiev/

So the blatant lies by the lying sacks of shit are laid bare. Quelle surprise.

darkpagandeath

Egginacup wrote: »

So the blatant lies by the lying sacks of shit are laid bare. Quelle surprise.

Egg what happened to there were no Russians in Ukraine ?

Egginacup

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Egg what happened to there were no Russians in Ukraine ?

Still waiting for the evidence of a Russian invasion of Eastern Ukraine.
While I'm waiting for that are you going to rescind your assertions that Crimeans were forced at gunpoint to vote for secession?
Or is anyone going to man up and admit their laughable claims of Crimean invasion, coercion and brutal occupation were fantasy?

darkpagandeath

Egginacup wrote: »

Still waiting for the evidence of a Russian invasion of Eastern Ukraine.
While I'm waiting for that are you going to rescind your assertions that Crimeans were forced at gunpoint to vote for secession?
Or is anyone going to man up and admit their laughable claims of Crimean invasion, coercion and brutal occupation were fantasy?

So what are you saying, There were plans made before the invasion. Everyone went meh that's a bad idea. Went to bed and wished, then the next day An unknown army claimed Crimea for Russia off it's own bat.....

Egginacup

darkpagandeath wrote: »

So what are you saying, There were plans made before the invasion. Everyone went meh that's a bad idea. Went to bed and wished, then the next day An unknown army claimed Crimea for Russia off it's own bat.....

What invasion?
You keep talking about an invasion and dragging Crimea into it.
I have asked time and time again for evidence of a Russian invasion of Eastern Ukraine. Don't bring up Crimea, tell me about this invasion of Eastern Ukraine please.

darkpagandeath

Egginacup wrote: »

What invasion?
You keep talking about an invasion and dragging Crimea into it.
I have asked time and time again for evidence of a Russian invasion of Eastern Ukraine. Don't bring up Crimea, tell me about this invasion of Eastern Ukraine please.

wept....


OK I will bite as well, So the Russian soldiers are on leave/holiday. And the commanders at base said sure you can take what you like with you.

Egginacup

Where is the evidence of this much vaunted "invasion" of Eastern Ukraine. A nuclear power bristling with ICBMs, Grads, tanks, Ilyushin and Sturmovik gunships, bombers, MiGs, warships, submarines, etc. ...yet not so much as a pic from a 12 year-old's iPhone of a single Russian truck.

Gatling

Egginacup wrote: »

Where is the evidence of this much vaunted "invasion" of Eastern Ukraine. A nuclear power bristling with ICBMs, Grads, tanks, Ilyushin and Sturmovik gunships, bombers, MiGs, warships, submarines, etc. ...yet not so much as a pic from a 12 year-old's iPhone of a single Russian truck.

Explain the thousands of secret russian army funerals .
Explain the burning wrecks of Russian military latest tanks in Ukraine .
Explain the video of the buk missles been driven back to the russian border
..

BoJack Horseman

Egginacup wrote: »

Where is the evidence of this much vaunted "invasion" of Eastern Ukraine. A nuclear power bristling with ICBMs, Grads, tanks, Ilyushin and Sturmovik gunships, bombers, MiGs, warships, submarines, etc. ...yet not so much as a pic from a 12 year-old's iPhone of a single Russian truck.

Except there has been.

However you are in some sort of next level cognitive dissonant fantasy where if you believe it hard enough a false reality forms around you.

Like if Walter Mitty had a hard on for tyrants.

Egginacup

darkpagandeath wrote: »

wept....


OK I will bite as well, So the Russian soldiers are on leave/holiday. And the commanders at base said sure you can take what you like with you.

Seriously, dpd, please say you have something more than that, some Russian soldiers who have allegedly fought with Novorussians and all of a sudden that's an invasion. So a bunch of squaddies from Colchester punching up some people in Amsterdam is a British invasion? Ex marines or neo nazis going to Bosnia to get their kicks fighting Serbs constitutes a German invasion?

You'll have to do a lot better.

Egginacup

Gatling wrote: »

Explain the thousands of secret russian army funerals .
Explain the burning wrecks of Russian military latest tanks in Ukraine .
Explain the video of the buk missles been driven back to the russian border
..

Where are the charred hulks of these Russian tanks? If some Dutch reporter can find and identify a fragment the size of a penny of a BUK missile then surely such intrepid hacks could find loads of fragments....nay tons of destroyed Russian armour, no?

Elmer Blooker

Gatling wrote: »

Explain the thousands of secret russian army funerals .
Explain the burning wrecks of Russian military latest tanks in Ukraine .
Explain the video of the buk missles been driven back to the russian border
..

I think YOU are the one who should be explaining the burning wrecks of Russian tanks! Where? When?
You don't have to explain the video of the buk missiles, that would be Mr Eliot Higgins the ... ahem ... investigative journalist.

S.R.

Gatling wrote: »

Explain the thousands of secret russian army funerals .
Explain the burning wrecks of Russian military latest tanks in Ukraine .
Explain the video of the buk missles been driven back to the russian border
..

The time of great f*cking stories has come. (c)

1. Not thousands but millions.
If you could read and watch ukranian sources you would realize that you sound like one of those ukranians from Debaltsevo or from sofa army. According to them ukranian armed forces has wiped out russian army at least 10 times since the beginning of conflict.

2. What are you talking about?!?! Provide link to these "latest russian tanks". PLEASE.

3. The BUK that "been driven back to the russian border" deep inside ukranian controlled territory?

Gatling

S.R. wrote: »

The time of great f*cking stories has come. (c)

1. Not thousands but millions.
If you could read and watch ukranian sources you would realize that you sound like one of those ukranians from Debaltsevo or from sofa army. According to them ukranian armed forces has wiped out russian army at least 10 times since the beginning of conflict.

2. What are you talking about?!?! Provide link to these "latest russian tanks". PLEASE.

3. The BUK that "been driven back to the russian border" deep inside ukranian controlled territory?

Ehhhhhhh No

Egginacup

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Except there has been.

However you are in some sort of next level cognitive dissonant fantasy where if you believe it hard enough a false reality forms around you.

Like if Walter Mitty had a hard on for tyrants.

Where is there a SINGLE picture or photograph of a burning or bombed out Russian tank?
Are you going to provide this/these pictures or are you going to continue to just talk about them?

Where is the evidence of these burnt Russian columns? Where?

S.R.

Gatling wrote: »

Ehhhhhhh No

Cmon, don't say "no"! I am waiting impatiently.

http://i.imgur.com/impuao9.jpg?1

Egginacup

S.R. wrote: »

The time of great f*cking stories has come. (c)

1. Not thousands but millions.
If you could read and watch ukranian sources you would realize that you sound like one of those ukranians from Debaltsevo or from sofa army. According to them ukranian armed forces has wiped out russian army at least 10 times since the beginning of conflict.

2. What are you talking about?!?! Provide link to these "latest russian tanks". PLEASE.

3. The BUK that "been driven back to the russian border" deep inside ukranian controlled territory?

Funny isn't it?

...what 4 or 5 thousand Novorussian civilians have died since this whole debacle kicked off yet "thousands" of Russian soldiers have been killed? It must be the most lobsided war in history whereby more military are killed than civilians.

Egginacup

S.R. wrote: »

The time of great f*cking stories has come. (c)

1. Not thousands but millions.
If you could read and watch ukranian sources you would realize that you sound like one of those ukranians from Debaltsevo or from sofa army. According to them ukranian armed forces has wiped out russian army at least 10 times since the beginning of conflict.

2. What are you talking about?!?! Provide link to these "latest russian tanks". PLEASE.

3. The BUK that "been driven back to the russian border" deep inside ukranian controlled territory?

At one stage didn't the body count of "Charlie" deaths in the Vietnam War actually exceed the fucking population of the country? :pac:

Littlekittylou

http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2015-03-22/nato-says-russia-s-cheating-in-ukraine

Russia still has Ukraine in the grips of a crisis. The Minsk peace agreement has not been fully implemented. Putin has decimated the Ukrainian economy. Moscow still has troops in Ukraine's territory.

Egginacup

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Except there has been.

However you are in some sort of next level cognitive dissonant fantasy where if you believe it hard enough a false reality forms around you.

Like if Walter Mitty had a hard on for tyrants.

No Bojack, I'm not in any kind of denial or parallel reality here.

I am a huge fan of facts and evidence. NOW, if you don't mind, can you furnish any evidence, photos, satellite images, kids with iPhones, ANYTHING to lend credence to your knowledge that there are burning hulks of destroyed Russian tanks in The Ukraine?

It's a very simple request. In fact it's as simple a request as asking for proof of a Russian invasion in the first place. That proof has heretofore been absent. The latest claim is that there is the wreckage of Russian tanks, trucks and various other pieces of military equipment and again not so much as a photograph.

A riot breaks out on a beach in Dublin and within minutes there are uploads of scrotes trashing each other and yet there isn't a single photograph of a Russian invasion of a country over the course of a year?

:pac:

obplayer

Egginacup wrote: »

No Bojack, I'm not in any kind of denial or parallel reality here.

I am a huge fan of facts and evidence. NOW, if you don't mind, can you furnish any evidence, photos, satellite images, kids with iPhones, ANYTHING to lend credence to your knowledge that there are burning hulks of destroyed Russian tanks in The Ukraine?

It's a very simple request. In fact it's as simple a request as asking for proof of a Russian invasion in the first place. That proof has heretofore been absent. The latest claim is that there is the wreckage of Russian tanks, trucks and various other pieces of military equipment and again not so much as a photograph.

A riot breaks out on a beach in Dublin and within minutes there are uploads of scrotes trashing each other and yet there isn't a single photograph of a Russian invasion of a country over the course of a year?

:pac:

`
From Reuters, which is always wrong.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/10/23/us-ukraine-crisis-tanks-exclusive-idUSKCN0IC1GE20141023

http://www.reuters.com/news/picture/exclusive-charred-tanks-in-ukraine-point?articleId=USKCN0IC1GE20141023

Elmer Blooker

obplayer wrote: »

`
From Reuters, which is always wrong.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/10/23/us-ukraine-crisis-tanks-exclusive-idUSKCN0IC1GE20141023

http://www.reuters.com/news/picture/exclusive-charred-tanks-in-ukraine-point?articleId=USKCN0IC1GE20141023

Quite pathetic and amateurish propaganda if you ask me.
That tank is definitely not recently burnt and charred, in fact looking at how covered in rust it is I would say that wreck is years old, where and when the picture was taken I've no idea.

Egginacup

obplayer wrote: »

`
From Reuters, which is always wrong.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/10/23/us-ukraine-crisis-tanks-exclusive-idUSKCN0IC1GE20141023

http://www.reuters.com/news/picture/exclusive-charred-tanks-in-ukraine-point?articleId=USKCN0IC1GE20141023

Are you going to continue to insult the intelligence of anyone who might have an IQ above room temperature with this crap?

Read the caption:

"A destroyed T-72 tank that presumably came from Russia...."

That is almost as sad an attempt as the twitter accounts.