I need feminism because...

BonsaiKitten · 28-09-2014 12:09AM

Neyite wrote: »

But I've never, ever gone to a club for the reason 'sausagefest'. Thankfully I'm not a slave to my genitalia.

How is someone going to a club "for a fcuk" being a slave to their genitalia? That's a very self righteous attitude to take imo.

Some people CHOOSE to go to clubs to pick up people. Could be a kiss, swapping numbers, or yes on the pull. They choose this. I could be wrong here but one of the fundamentals of feminism is the right to choose, no?

So you don't. Ok, good for you, I'd be the same. Others...many others... do. Good for them.

GarIT · 28-09-2014 12:09AM

Lyaiera wrote: »

If you have a problem with my posts you should report it. Of course you don't have a problem with my posts you're just flailing around for a way to "win" an argument. You found yourself being shown up in this thread, warned by the mods and having posts deleted and instead of talking about the sexist behaviour of the bouncer you're now talking about a minor element of what I said.

I'd be happy to talk about the use of genital synonyms as derogatory terms and insults. Especially about the use of words such as the c-word in relation to women seeing as this is The Ladies Lounge and for discussing things from the perspective of women.

I don't have a problem with anything, I'll refer to women as whatever I feel like and don't really care what anyone calls me but I was just using your logic. I wasn't shown up the few friends I've shown this to think the things the women are saying here is hilarious and the mod only deleted posts to further their own agenda.

Two quote two of my female friends, "nobody does more to cause harm to the gender than feminists do"

eviltwin · 28-09-2014 12:11AM

I've never gone clubbing to find sex, I'd use an app or hook up site for that, much less hassle, time and money and better chance of securing a date compared to going to a club.

Lyaiera · 28-09-2014 12:12AM

I need feminism because people still say stuff like this when arguing with women.

GarIT wrote: »

I'll refer to women as whatever I feel like

constance tench · 28-09-2014 12:23AM

Lyaiera wrote: »

If you have a problem with my posts you should report it. Of course you don't have a problem with my posts you're just flailing around for a way to "win" an argument. You found yourself being shown up in this thread, warned by the mods and having posts deleted and instead of talking about the sexist behaviour of the bouncer you're now talking about a minor element of what I said.

I'd be happy to talk about the use of genital synonyms as derogatory terms and insults. Especially about the use of words such as the c-word in relation to women seeing as this is The Ladies Lounge and for discussing things from the perspective of women.

Edit: Also you're wrong. I have no problem with calling someone a tit.

What about 'a c**t'?
Isn't that usually used to describe someones behaviour also?

Neyite · 28-09-2014 12:26AM

BonsaiKitten wrote: »

How is someone going to a club "for a fcuk" being a slave to their genitalia? That's a very self righteous attitude to take imo.

Some people CHOOSE to go to clubs to pick up people. Could be a kiss, swapping numbers, or yes on the pull. They choose this. I could be wrong here but one of the fundamentals of feminism is the right to choose, no?

So you don't. Ok, good for you, I'd be the same. Others...many others... do. Good for them.

I'm responding to the account of the bouncer making an assumption that all men seem to be interested in is fanny, and male posters asserting that "well, what else is a club for?"
My point is that there are many reasons to go clubbing. Not all of them involve sex. And many women feel pestered in clubs because they are there for non sexual entertainment and get harassed by the fanny-hunt types, as if they are some sort of prick-teases solely for the fact they are not immediately interested in having sex.

If a woman wants to use clubs to have one night stands I'll defend her right to do so and I'd be the last to judge anyone on their sex life. But because some do, doesn't mean we should all collectively be subject to abuse if we turns guy down because he assumes he is in some sort of vagina shop. Nearly every time I've been in a club without a male friend or a boyfriend I've been chatted up only for the guy to get thick and insulting when I nicely explained that I'm not on the pull.

constance tench · 28-09-2014 12:30AM

Neyite wrote: »

I don't think I've ever gone to a nightclub for a fcuk

I've gone because the group I'm out with want to go.
I've gone because I'm really enjoying the night out and I don't want it to end yet.
I've gone because I feel like another drink and the bars are shutting.
I've gone because I love to dance.
I've gone when single to see if I could meet someone nice.

But I've never, ever gone to a club for the reason 'sausagefest'. Thankfully I'm not a slave to my genitalia.

Maybe your a little more polite about it?

Lyaiera · 28-09-2014 12:33AM

constance tench wrote: »

Maybe your a little more polite about it?

There's a big difference between "looking for fanny/dick" and looking for someone nice. That's the whole basis of rape culture.

BonsaiKitten · 28-09-2014 12:36AM

Neyite wrote: »

I'm responding to the account of the bouncer making an assumption that all men seem to be interested in is fanny, and male posters asserting that "well, what else is a club for?"
My point is that there are many reasons to go clubbing. Not all of them involve sex. And many women feel pestered in clubs because they are there for non sexual entertainment and get harassed by the fanny-hunt types, as if they are some sort of prick-teases solely for the fact they are not immediately interested in having sex.

If a woman wants to use clubs to have one night stands I'll defend her right to do so and I'd be the last to judge anyone on their sex life. But because some do, doesn't mean we should all collectively be subject to abuse if we turns guy down because he assumes he is in some sort of vagina shop. Nearly every time I've been in a club without a male friend or a boyfriend I've been chatted up only for the guy to get thick and insulting when I nicely explained that I'm not on the pull.

Yes, it's irritating when that happens. I get that.

That's not what I pulled you up on. It was the way you worded that "slave to genitalia" piece. If someone came into tLL talking about - let's pull a random example out of the air - about how condoms should be illegal, and anyone who uses them is a slave to their genitalia. Well, I'd imagine that person wouldnt have many supporters in the forum, and imo rightly so. The implication that people like that are just sex driven is awful.

constance tench · 28-09-2014 12:39AM

Lyaiera wrote: »

There's a big difference between "looking for fanny/dick" and looking for someone nice. That's the whole basis of rape culture.

My point was...it's not as crude, so yes, big difference.
What's rape 'culture'?

Lyaiera · 28-09-2014 12:42AM

constance tench wrote: »

My point was...it's not as crude, so yes, big difference.
What's rape 'culture'?

The presumption that women's purpose is to provide sex and it's men's rights to get that would be one idea behind it.

And as for your point being it's not as crude, they're still completely distinct points. Someone looking for genitalia is only looking for sex, someone looking for someone nice could be looking for a friend, a possible relationship, emotional connections as well as or not at all looking for sex. They're completely different things.

BonsaiKitten · 28-09-2014 12:42AM

Lyaiera wrote: »

There's a big difference between "looking for fanny/dick" and looking for someone nice. That's the whole basis of rape culture.

It's a nightclub. People aren't instantly wowed by a beautiful personality across the dancefloor.

Sure, once you get to know the person and see all of their many wonderful qualities etc etc, then that wonderful personality can blow you away. But if you approach someone in a club, it's going to be looks driven really. Unless perhaps you're asking where the jacks are or where they got their dress perhaps.

There's nothing wrong with going out on the prowl for a girl/guy for the night. It doesn't have to be soulmate territory or finding someone to take out to the latest romcom. As long as everyone understands what's going on and stay respectful of each other, no harm done.

Lyaiera · 28-09-2014 12:49AM

BonsaiKitten wrote: »

It's a nightclub. People aren't instantly wowed by a beautiful personality across the dancefloor.

Sure, once you get to know the person and see all of their many wonderful qualities etc etc, then that wonderful personality can blow you away. But if you approach someone in a club, it's going to be looks driven really. Unless perhaps you're asking where the jacks are or where they got their dress perhaps.

There's nothing wrong with going out on the prowl for a girl/guy for the night. It doesn't have to be soulmate territory or finding someone to take out to the latest romcom. As long as everyone understands what's going on and stay respectful of each other, no harm done.

I didn't say there was anything wrong with trying to pull in a nightclub. I had a problem with the presumption everyone there was looking for "fanny." A purely sexual thing. I've often wanted to get to know someone better because I've had fun dancing with them. And this mostly happens with women who I have zero interest in having sex with because women are generally more attuned to "fun" dancing. I see a lot of people's personalities in how they dance.

It's the idea that everyone there is just looking for someone to shag that gets me. And that men are just looking for someone to shag. I guess it's a stupid thing to think of in regards to both women and men.

constance tench · 28-09-2014 12:54AM

Lyaiera wrote: »

The presumption that women's purpose is to provide sex and it's men's rights to get that would be one idea behind it.

And as for your point being it's not as crude, they're still completely distinct points. Someone looking for genitalia is only looking for sex, someone looking for someone nice could be looking for a friend, a possible relationship, emotional connections as well as or not at all looking for sex. They're completely different things.

I presume you are saying that would be how a rapist might think...but to call it a 'culture'...?

Yes, just like I said...not as crude.

constance tench · 28-09-2014 01:56AM

Lyaiera wrote: »

If you have a problem with my posts you should report it. Of course you don't have a problem with my posts you're just flailing around for a way to "win" an argument. You found yourself being shown up in this thread, warned by the mods and having posts deleted and instead of talking about the sexist behaviour of the bouncer you're now talking about a minor element of what I said.

I'd be happy to talk about the use of genital synonyms as derogatory terms and insults. Especially about the use of words such as the c-word in relation to women seeing as this is The Ladies Lounge and for discussing things from the perspective of women.

Edit: Also you're wrong. I have no problem with calling someone a tit.

So you've accepted my point?

constance tench · 28-09-2014 02:15AM

...good.

ivytwine · 28-09-2014 12:58PM

OK probably going to get slated here but I think Lyaiera, you were overreacting a little. As another poster said people say "sausage-fest" and I've lost count of the times my gay male friends have said they're going out for cock- and I've heard straight female friends say it too. Hell I've probably said it myself. It's not respectful to anybody of any gender to refer to them by their genitalia but that's the culture, especially among younger night-club goers. This bouncer has seen it all, he probably has little respect for any of the patrons of the club, those kind of jobs do that to you. I certainly don't think it's indicative of rape culture, and to be frank those kind of assertions do feminism absolutely no favours and fan the flames of its opponents.

Shakespeare's Sister · 28-09-2014 01:10PM

I'm somewhere in the middle.

I don't agree with the "rape culture" thing - I think it's a terrible demonisation of men, and a phrase that casually uses the term for an horrendous thing, thus devaluing the term a bit IMO.
I still however hate the over-use of the term "pussy", "fanny" and (in this country) "gash" as a description of women though. Ew, it's horrible. "Smashing pussy" just sounds rapey too IMO.
Women simply do not use the term "cock" to refer to men anywhere near as much as the above - it would be dishonest to say it's as bad as this contrived "lad"/"fratboy"/misogynistic porn type language culture which some guys seem to subscribe to in order to sound a bit bad-ass.

Going out purely to "score"... I dunno. It has become the norm for people NEVER to be critical of this. Personally I don't think it's a good thing (whether by women or men). Sure, nothing wrong with it being a part of why someone would go out, but I don't think it's great when it's the only thing, and it's the be all and end all of a night out. Hardly a healthy outlook.
And it's a lovely idea that both people are on the same wavelength, things are on a level playing-field, but it's also to do with alcohol and one or both person could be cringing and doing a runner next morning. The recognition of the phenomenon of making a dash for the fat girl at 2am if really stuck for someone to ride, is also an indication that it's sadly not always a mutual respect thing.

ivytwine · 28-09-2014 01:18PM

Shakespeare's Sister wrote: »

I still however hate the over-use of the term "pussy", "fanny" and (in this country) "gash" as a description of women though. Ew, it's horrible. "Smashing pussy" just sounds rapey too IMO.
Women simply do not use the term "cock" to refer to men anywhere near as much as the above - it would be dishonest to say it's as bad as this contrived "lad"/"fratboy"/misogynistic porn type language culture which some guys seem to subscribe to in order to sound a bit bad-ass.

I agree with you there and probably the fact that I used to hang out with a lot of gay guys and alternative girls in college probably leads me to overestimate how much people say cock etc for guys.

I think the "trying to sound badass" thing is spot-on. When guys get into their mid-20s, there's a lot less of this kind of bravado.

Tigger99 · 28-09-2014 01:32PM

Rape culture certainly exists. The nasty phenomenon of talking about sexual violence flippantly or describing it as rapey is a perfect example.

I'm not sure why the term rape culture is demonising of all men. Surely it's only demonising of the men and women that refer to rape in a joking and flippant way.

ivytwine · 28-09-2014 01:36PM

Tigger99 wrote: »

Rape culture certainly exists. The nasty phenomenon of talking about sexual violence flippantly or describing it as rapey is a perfect example.

I'm not sure why the term rape culture is demonising of all men. Surely it's only demonising of the men and women that refer to rape in a joking and flippant way.

But saying a club is full of fanny is not referring to rape or sexual assault in a jokey way?

Don't get me wrong, it's crude and demeaning. But it's not worth getting overly het up about in my opinion.

A frustrated and annoyed low-paid worker referring disrespectfully to the female patrons of his establishment is not worthy of any kind of crusade in my opinion.

Tigger99 · 28-09-2014 01:41PM

I wasn't referring to the bouncers comment, but to the comment that rape culture doesn't exist.

Who said Lyaeira was on a crusade? Maybe she was commenting in the thread because that's what it's here for. The crusade seems to be from the 'but what about the menz' brigade.

ivytwine · 28-09-2014 01:43PM

Tigger99 wrote: »

I wasn't referring to the bouncers comment, but to the comment that rape culture doesn't exist.

Who said Lyaeira was on a crusade? Maybe she was commenting in the thread because that's what it's here for. The crusade seems to be from the 'but what about the menz' brigade.

Crusade is probably the wrong word and I apologise. In my opinion it's not worth getting het up about. Just my opinion. And I am certainly not from the "what about the menz" brigade.

I agree that rape culture exists, even though I am uncomfortable with some examples that are given of it.

Shakespeare's Sister · 28-09-2014 01:44PM

Rape culture is too strong a term - to me it reads like "Society that's ok with rape". Society is NOT ok with rape.
Tasteless jokes aren't = a culture.

Laddishness is a culture among some guys all right though - some of it is harmless, but some of it is disquieting. A lot of it comes from hardcore porn I'd say.

YumCha · 28-09-2014 01:45PM

Hearing that comments which enforce heteronormativity and perpetuate stupid gender myths (all guys are out to get laid) are not in anyway related to why we need feminism... <-- This is why I need feminism

Links234 · 28-09-2014 01:53PM

Shakespeare's Sister wrote: »

Rape culture is too strong a term - to me it reads like "Society that's ok with rape". Society is NOT ok with rape.
Tasteless jokes aren't = a culture.

I think it's a bit much to refer to tasteless jokes as rape culture, but you know, with the likes of Steubenville or our very own Listowel, it's hard to argue that rape culture isn't a thing.

YumCha · 28-09-2014 01:59PM

I also need feminism for the endless discussions about whether rape culture exists even though there are numerous examples given over the entirety of this thread.

And also because almost every time I see rape culture brought up on the internet the discussion descends into terminology, even though adding together your definitions of rape and culture to define rape culture is about as useful as adding together definitions of green and house to define a greenhouse as a house painted green.

B0jangles · 28-09-2014 02:04PM

If I was in that club and had to get help because I was being harassed, I wouldn't expect to get much help from a bouncer with attitudes like that.

constance tench · 28-09-2014 02:05PM

YumCha wrote: »

Hearing that comments which enforce heteronormativity and perpetuate stupid gender myths (all guys are out to get laid) are not in anyway related to why we need feminism... <-- This is why I need feminism

Conversation/debate should flow, no?
In saying that, I do realise you are trying to bring the thread back on topic...
but, any poster could, at some point suggest that she needs feminism like a hole in the head...don't you think that deserves a response?

sunshine and showers · 28-09-2014 02:29PM

Posters (particularly female ones) who suggest they need feminism like a hole in the head (as has been popular of late with some young, generally Western females online) undoubtedly deserve a response.

That response (which I find difficult to deliver without feelings of rage) is that they are looking at the world from a place of extreme privilege compared to most women on the planet. Feminism isn't about one woman out there who is happy with her lot and either experiences no sexism or doesn't recognise certain forms of subtle sexism. Feminism is about the bigger picture of global inequality between men and women. It's about shocking literacy levels among women in developing countries, about the gender pay gap (that DOES exist globally, whether it affects one personally or not). It's about young girls being worried and unhappy about their looks at younger and younger ages because of the image mass media throws at them (it's also about the image of what makes a "real man" shown to young males too). It's about the way female and male rape victims are treated. It's about how many women in this world are still seen and treated like property. It's about the chronic under representation of half the global population in politics and the corporate wolrd - to name a very brief view things.

Feminism is one of the most important social movements there is or ever was. It has evolved so much in the last number of decades and needs to continue to grow to include women of colour and other groups who may be marginalised by the "white, western female" image it has.

Women who think they don't need feminism are utterly misguided as to what feminism is and that is tragic. It's not about bra burning or hating men or wanting to be superior to men. That image, I believe, is one that men (#notallmen) have perpetuated in order to ignore uncomfortable truths, and sadly young women (and older women) have accepted it without much reasoned thought.

The really sad thing is that feminism has become such a taboo word. Many young women believe in most of the basic tenets of feminism but refuse to be associated with the word because of the stigma attached.

I need feminism because...

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