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Ukraine: As it happens.

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Comments

  • #7262
    BoJack Horseman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,247 ✭✭✭✭BoJack Horseman


    Why are those defending the Kremlin always whatabouting about America?

    You'd think Eggy & Elmer are happy condone any amount of human pain & death so long as its a thumb in the eye of America.

    Pathetic.


  • #7263
    gandalf
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,458 ✭✭✭✭gandalf


    Egginacup wrote: »
    What proof? There is no proof. None. All you have is speculation. You don't have a shred of proof.

    Please show this "proof" that shows that pro-Russian rebels were responsible for taking down MH17.

    Your "proofs" are as flimsy, if not downright pathetic as those "proofs" that god exists, e.g. "if God didn't exist, nothing would exist. But many things exist, therefore God exists. QED." There's loads of crap like that.

    Your take on the proof that pro-Russian rebels were responsible is akin to this rubbish. You state "pro-Russian rebels have previously shot down Ukrainian aircraft, ergo they are responsible."

    When shown how staggeringly flawed your logic is you don't examine it and see it's flaw. Instead you demand an alternative so that you can scoff at an alternative and bring the debate back to your flawed, and ultimately worthless "proof".

    AGAIN YOU HAVE POSTED ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO BACK UP YOUR CLAIMS.

    Here is a fraction of what I have based my conclusion on. This has been drawn up this evening just skimming over the subject online. I have also posted other numerous links to other documents all over this thread. You on the other hand have posted BUGGER ALL. Now put up or shut up.

    Pro-Russian Rebels are the only ones shooting down planes in this conflict before MH17 was taken down.
    The Ukrainian Ministry of Defence confirmed on Saturday 7 June 2014 that one of its few Antonov AN-26 tactical

    transport aircraft was shot down on Friday 6th in the skies over Slovyansk, with the loss of three out of an eight men

    crew.

    http://airheadsfly.com/2014/06/07/ukraine-an-26-downed-by-newest-russian-manpads/

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ukrainian_aircraft_losses_during_the_2014_pro-Russian_unrest_in_Ukraine

    Local Commander confirms that the Rebels had a BUK system in their pocession in the area the missile was fired from.
    Ukrainian Alexander Khodakovsky, the commander of the Vostok Battalion, has acknowledged for the first time since the airliner was brought down in eastern Ukraine on Thursday that the rebels did possess the Buk missile system.

    He said it may have been sent back subsequently to remove proof of its presence.

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-07-24/mh17-ukraine-rebel-commander-acknowledges-fighters-had-buk/5619520

    http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/07/23/us-ukraine-crisis-commander-exclusive-idUSKBN0FS1V920140723?utm_source=twitter

    Social Media matches this claim as well (Social media by itself cannot be considered airtight but when added with everything else it does back up that the Rebels fired the missile that took down MH17).
    Reports emerged in the immediate aftermath of the downing of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 on July 17 that members of a Russian backed separatist militia had possession of a ‘Buk’ surface-to-air missile system prior to the incident. Evidence points to the separatists being in possession of the Russian-made ‘Buk’ missile system, or SA-11, which is capable of the attack which targeted the passenger plane, resulting in the loss of all 298 people on board.

    As images and videos purporting to show the missile system in the Donetsk region of eastern Ukraine began to flood in, Storyful, alongside other journalists and social media experts in our Open Newsroom and elsewhere, worked to verify this information and determine the veracity of these claims. From the images and videos, we were able to determine that members of the Donetsk People’s Republic separatist militia, at the very least, did appear to have access to an anti-aircraft system capable of an attack like the one carried out on MH17.

    http://blog.storyful.com/2014/07/19/how-social-sleuthing-uncovered-evidence-of-anti-aircraft-missile-system-in-eastern-ukraine/#.VCBkQxZKiM8

    MH17 site was interfered with by the so-called Rebels.
    ...The SMM observed that what appeared to be hand luggage had been collected into piles. The SMM saw that one of the largest pieces of debris had been split in two. Elsewhere, a considerable amount of smaller debris appeared to have been moved. The SMM observed that all bodies previously visible at the site had been recovered, although several smaller body parts remained....


    http://www.osce.org/ukraine-smm/121521

    International inspectors have accused people working at the crash site of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 in Ukraine of

    damaging the wreckage and failing to collect all the remains of the 298 people on board who died.

    The Organisation for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE) made the claims, as some of the victims’ bodies were

    prepared for repatriation and the US pledged to reveal evidence linking the disaster to pro-Russian rebels in eastern

    Ukraine.

    ......
    Michael Bociurkiw, a spokesman for OSCE monitors who have visited the crash area several times, said the tail fin and

    other major pieces of the Boeing 777 appeared to have been “cut into”. The monitors said they “saw that one of the largest

    pieces of debris had been split in two. Elsewhere, a considerable amount of smaller debris appeared to have been moved.”

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/mh17-crash-site-damaged-by-rebels-say-osce-inspectors-1.1874962
    One of the 298 victims in the Malaysia Airlines MH17 crash reportedly had his credit card stolen from the site where the plane went down in eastern Ukraine and used by pro-Russian rebels who looted the area.

    Cameron Dalziel’s wife, Reine, said she had to cancel her husband’s credit card when she saw account activity in the days after the jet was shot down on July 17. Reine’s brother, Shane Hattingh, told CNN the credit card was likely stolen by “heartless” pro-Russian rebels who officials said stole from the crash site.

    "People are abusing it in the Ukraine,” Hattingh said. “They have no respect for each other, look what they're doing. It's

    no surprise that they were treating the remains of people like that. It made me angry beyond words.”

    http://www.ibtimes.com/cameron-dalziel-mh17-victim-had-his-credit-card-stolen-used-looters-who-robbed-crash-site-163931
    A PRO-RUSSIAN woman living in the eastern separatist region of Ukraine posted pictures of herself on Instagram wearing makeup she claimed was looted from the Flight MH17 crash site.

    “Mascara from Amsterdam, or rather from the field. Well, I think you know what I mean,” said Ekaterina Parkhomenko, who posted a picture of the stolen mascara on her now-deleted account, according to Central European News.

    http://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-updates/mh17-prorussian-woman-ekaterina-parkhomenko-took-instagram-selfie-allegedly-wearing-stolen-makeup/story-fnizu68q-1227002294758
    A photograph widely circulating on social media last night purported to show a Russian separatist fighter stealing a ring from a victim of the MH17 crash.

    In the picture, which has not been independently verified, three rebels wearing military uniforms appear to be rifling through the wreckage.

    A blonde-haired fighter, wearing a black beret, is bent over what looks like wreckage and apparently holding what seems to be a gold ring.


    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2700645/Is-moment-rebel-stole-plane-victims-ring-Outrage-picture-emerges-militia-rifling-MH17-wreckage.html

    Video

    Mh17 Black Box

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2014/jul/21/crane-removes-mh17-plane-parts-as-black-box-footage-emerges-video

    Donetsk insurgent leader Alexander Borodai denied on Saturday that black boxes of the crashed Malaysian airliner

    MH17 had been found.

    Borodai said they had not touched the site where the passenger flight crashed but they reserved the right to begin the process of taking away the bodies since the bodies would decompose in the scorching summer heat.

    http://www.china.org.cn/world/2014-07/20/content_33003782.htm

    Again that's a fraction of the information out there from numerous different sources.

    SO I HAVE SHOWN YOU MINE, LETS SEE YOURS.


  • #7264
    Count Dooku
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,419 ✭✭✭Count Dooku


    gandalf wrote: »
    Local Commander confirms that the Rebels had a BUK system in their pocession in the area the missile was fired from.
    Ukrainians also had Buks and other SAM launchers in this area and they had more reasons to shot down MH17 in order to frame rebels and Russia. As I said before, winglet clearly shows that Boeing have been hit from back and under normal circumstances SAM won't go around plane unless target will start to perform anti-missile manoeuvres, which Boing didn't perform(and was not capable to do so)
    This is why rebels gave all black boxes without tampering them and there is no enthusiasm to bring remains of MH17 to safe place to do more detailed analysis. Dutch even refused to show shrapnel taken out from bodies of pilots in case if plane was shot down by SA-3 missile as German suspect
    http://www.bundestag.de/presse/hib/2014_09/-/329982


  • #7265
    gandalf
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,458 ✭✭✭✭gandalf


    Elmer Blooker wrote: »
    You quoted The Moscow Times earlier today so you obviously consider it to be a reliable and informative source. You should find this an interesting read.
    http://www.themoscowtimes.com/opinion/article/after-kiev-coup-the-west-will-focus-on-moscow/496915.html

    I quote the Moscow Times because they do have links to interesting articles. The one you quote is an Opinion piece.

    The basis for this and your coup opinion is the Infamous Nuland phone call. This seems to be the only evidence people have for the so called coup along with various NGO funding. From my perspective this is a very weak argument that a US back coup occurred. Again it is a situation where you have 1 + 1 and you really want it to be 100 therefore it becomes 100. Not 2 or 10 in binary as it should be.

    This is the transcript of that call.

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957

    All I see are two diplomats discussing the make up of the next government and agreeing to get the first calls into the potential leaders. This would be standard practice among diplomats trying to gain influence with decision makers. I would assume the Russians were doing the same and I wouldn't accuse them of interference if they did. They are interfering in a real fashion supplying arms and now troops to the insurgents in East Ukraine.

    Again if you can provide some REAL proof of a coup by all means post it.


  • #7266
    gandalf
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,458 ✭✭✭✭gandalf


    Count Dooku wrote: »
    Ukrainians also had Buks and other SAM launchers in this area and they had more reasons to shot down MH17 in order to frame rebels and Russia.

    Are you seriously claiming the Ukrainians actually planned a false flag operation?

    They can hardly run their army normally.

    The most obvious explanation is the Rebels thought they had another AN26 in their sights and acted accordingly.
    As I said before, winglet clearly shows that Boeing have been hit from back and under normal circumstances SAM won't go around plane unless target will start to perform anti-missile manoeuvres, which Boing didn't perform(and was not capable to do so)

    And what about at damage in the fusalage of the plane? I mean we have another "alternative" reality fan saying it was cannons because the holes were limited to the cockpit area?
    This is why rebels gave all black boxes without tampering them and there is no enthusiasm to bring remains of MH17 to safe place to do more detailed analysis. Dutch even refused to show shrapnel taken out from bodies of pilots in case if plane was shot down by SA-3 missile as German suspect
    http://www.bundestag.de/presse/hib/2014_09/-/329982

    The Rebels only handed up the black boxes after video emerged of one of them taking them away from the crash site after the Russian implanted leader in power at the time said they didn't have them.

    Well I suspect given only the preliminary report on the disaster has been released and the full report won't be released until next year that may be the real reason all evidence hasn't been released.

    I read that German report and in reality it is very "limp wristed" in its outcome.

    EDIT Found this article and as I suspected the report says bugger all really.
    In a response to a request by the Left Party in the Bundestag, obtained by the media companies WDR and NDR, the German government said AWACS aircraft patrolling Polish and Romanian airspace found the Malaysian plane but links with it were lost when it entered the uncontrolled area.

    Two AWACS aircraft recorded the signals of one of the anti-aircraft systems and another unknown system that was automatically assigned to the SA-3 complex known as Pechora.

    The German government stressed that this is a routine signal recorded in the region.

    http://en.ria.ru/world/20140908/192745309/Germany-Says-No-Data-Confirms-Malaysian-Boeing-Downed-by-Missile.html


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  • #7267
    Elmer Blooker
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,445 ✭✭✭Elmer Blooker


    http://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-updates/mh17-prorussian-woman-ekaterina-parkhomenko-took-instagram-selfie-allegedly-wearing-stolen-makeup/story-fnizu68q-1227002294758
    I picked this one out from gandalf's post. I almost feel sorry and have pity for anyone who's gullible and stupid enough to fall for this mindless propaganda.
    The woman who "stole" the mascara just happens to be "pro Russian" - I don't know which frightens me most - the sick people who make up these lies or the people who actually believe it!
    All I see are two diplomats discussing the make up of the next government
    I wouldn't call them diplomats, but yes they are discussing the make of the next government and THEY decide who will be in that government.


  • #7268
    gandalf
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,458 ✭✭✭✭gandalf


    Elmer Blooker wrote: »
    http://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-updates/mh17-prorussian-woman-ekaterina-parkhomenko-took-instagram-selfie-allegedly-wearing-stolen-makeup/story-fnizu68q-1227002294758
    I picked this one out from gandalf's post. I almost feel sorry and have pity for anyone who's gullible and stupid enough to fall for this mindless propaganda.
    The woman who "stole" the mascara just happens to be "pro Russian" - I don't know which frightens me most - the sick people who make up these lies or the people who actually believe it!

    Only one item Elmer. You are right it is sick and if it was there by itself then yes I would agree with you.

    But you take it with every thing else quoted and it does prove that the so called people in charge did not make an effort to control the area and were engaged in damaging the site of a tragedy including looting and damage of evidence.

    Please try harder.


  • #7269
    Gatling
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    Elmer Blooker wrote: »
    http://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-updates/mh17-prorussian-woman-ekaterina-parkhomenko-took-instagram-selfie-allegedly-wearing-stolen-makeup/story-fnizu68q-1227002294758
    I picked this one out from gandalf's post. I almost feel sorry and have pity for anyone who's gullible and stupid enough to fall for this mindless propaganda.
    The woman who "stole" the mascara just happens to be "pro Russian" - I don't know which frightens me most - the sick people who make up these lies or the people who actually believe it!

    Lets all have a collective guess

    Its all nazi propaganda from kiev ??
    360_F_102352090_ie3kLjDIvgrT1sxVDknWCUh8PxgMYzM7.jpg




  • #7270
    sheesh
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,082 ✭✭✭sheesh


    Elmer Blooker wrote: »
    I would agree with what egginacup says - not all us are narrow minded xenophobes who would believe in anything they're told to believe in.
    Interesting that you should mention Washington doing things on the cheap - just shows how naive you are! Still, it's good to have a Democrat in the White House - better health care and education for the poor and disadvantaged, isn't that right? :D
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2765493/Projected-US-nuclear-weapons-spending-hits-1-TRILLION-jus

    What did I say that was Zenophobic?
    Who is in the white house is of minor concern to me as it is a completely different country and I have no control of it.

    A russian invasion of a country borders the EU is of much bigger concern.

    And finally do you live in Ireland? And do you support the invasion of Ukraine?


  • #7271
    gandalf
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,458 ✭✭✭✭gandalf


    Elmer Blooker wrote: »
    I wouldn't call them diplomats, but yes they are discussing the make of the next government and THEY decide who will be in that government.

    Sorry missed your addition.

    So basically that phone call is your only proof of a coup. The forum you should be using is here.


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  • #7272
    Egginacup
    Site Banned Posts: 2,922 ✭✭✭Egginacup


    Elmer Blooker wrote: »
    You quoted The Moscow Times earlier today so you obviously consider it to be a reliable and informative source. You should find this an interesting read.
    http://www.themoscowtimes.com/opinion/article/after-kiev-coup-the-west-will-focus-on-moscow/496915.html


    "Americans are from Mars, Europeans are from Venus. They agree on little and understand each other less and less."

    "Under our Constitution, military leaders have no choice but to endorse our President's decision after giving him their best advice."

    ---Robert Kagan
    (lunatic who helped bring us the Iraq War and husband of Victoria "Fcuk the EU" Nuland who is bringing us the Ukraine debacle).


  • #7273
    gandalf
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,458 ✭✭✭✭gandalf


    Egginacup wrote: »
    "Americans are from Mars, Europeans are from Venus. They agree on little and understand each other less and less."

    "Under our Constitution, military leaders have no choice but to endorse our President's decision after giving him their best advice."

    ---Robert Kagan
    (lunatic who helped bring us the Iraq War and husband of Victoria "Fcuk the EU" Nuland who is bringing us the Ukraine debacle).

    All that proves is Victoria is married to someone you don't like.

    Please try harder Egg, F- (and I'm being generous with that grade).


  • #7274
    Egginacup
    Site Banned Posts: 2,922 ✭✭✭Egginacup


    I love this woman's lucid and honest synopsis of Washington's faux-pas in trying to suck Ukraine into the fold:

    http://blackagendareport.com/node/14412

    Now anyone with a brain cell that isn't dying of loneliness will realise that behind the scenes the NATO tough talk about checkmating Russia (and Putin) has completely backfired and that Washington/NATO are feverishly attempting to save face in yet another of their abortive efforts to isolate Russia and put a ring of steel around China and cut the dragon off from the Caspian Basin.

    Of course people on here will continue to yap about Russia invading Crimea or some such infantile and meaningless dross but that's what proles do.

    Obama and his amateurs in Kiev went a bridge too far in trying to own Ukraine and Putin stopped them. Putin is well aware, as a former KGB man, that everyone commits dirty deeds to push an agenda. He's also intelligent enough (as a martial artist) to know when his adversary is defeated and therefore there is no need to twist the knife. The US and NATO have no proof of Russian involvement in the downing of MH17....because the Russians weren't involved. Putin knows that. Washington knows that so there will be no conclusions for a year. Between now and then, Ukraine will be split in two. The US ...and the world in general will recognise that Crimea is now part of Russia. Putin will let Obama off the hook for having his muppet (Kerry) pretend that Russia shot the plane down. The gas will still flow to Europe. Eastern Ukraine will become like South Ossetia and Ingushetia, i.e. nominally independent of Kiev but protected by Moscow. Western Ukraine will become a useless statelet prevented from joining the EU or NATO and will stagnate like Serbia.

    In return for massive sanctions to be lifted and assistance in defeating ISIS Putin will allow the arseholes conducting the investigation into the downing of MH17 to announce that it was a "rogue element" who didn't know what the fcuk they were doing.


  • #7275
    Egginacup
    Site Banned Posts: 2,922 ✭✭✭Egginacup


    And for those of you who have the memory of a goldfish and state that Russia invaded and annexed Crimea I would recommend you read this:

    http://www.iri.org/sites/default/files/2013%20October%207%20Survey%20of%20Crimean%20Public%20Opinion,%20May%2016-30,%202013.pdf

    An AMERICAN study.


  • #7276
    gandalf
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,458 ✭✭✭✭gandalf


    Egginacup wrote: »
    I love this woman's lucid and honest synopsis of Washington's faux-pas in trying to suck Ukraine into the fold:

    http://blackagendareport.com/node/14412

    Jesus you are getting desperate. Have you looked at the website that blog is linked to and actually looked through the articles. Is that really the best quality material you can come up with to back up your position. That's very sad. I'd even rate RT stories higher than that article you have put up there.
    Now anyone with a brain cell that isn't dying of loneliness will realise that behind the scenes the NATO tough talk about checkmating Russia (and Putin) has completely backfired and that Washington/NATO are feverishly attempting to save face in yet another of their abortive efforts to isolate Russia and put a ring of steel around China and cut the dragon off from the Caspian Basin.

    Any chance we could have proof of this or to paraphrase Queen "Is this just a fantasy"?
    Of course people on here will continue to yap about Russia invading Crimea or some such infantile and meaningless dross but that's what proles do.

    Because they did.
    Obama and his amateurs in Kiev went a bridge too far in trying to own Ukraine and Putin stopped them. Putin is well aware, as a former KGB man, that everyone commits dirty deeds to push an agenda. He's also intelligent enough (as a martial artist) to know when his adversary is defeated and therefore there is no need to twist the knife. The US and NATO have no proof of Russian involvement in the downing of MH17....because the Russians weren't involved. Putin knows that. Washington knows that so there will be no conclusions for a year. Between now and then, Ukraine will be split in two. The US ...and the world in general will recognise that Crimea is now part of Russia. Putin will let Obama off the hook for having his muppet (Kerry) pretend that Russia shot the plane down. The gas will still flow to Europe. Eastern Ukraine will become like South Ossetia and Ingushetia, i.e. nominally independent of Kiev but protected by Moscow. Western Ukraine will become a useless statelet prevented from joining the EU or NATO and will stagnate like Serbia.

    In return for massive sanctions to be lifted and assistance in defeating ISIS Putin will allow the arseholes conducting the investigation into the downing of MH17 to announce that it was a "rogue element" who didn't know what the fcuk they were doing.

    Wow, just wow. So in your world Putin has done no wrong at all.


  • #7277
    gandalf
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,458 ✭✭✭✭gandalf


    Egginacup wrote: »
    And for those of you who have the memory of a goldfish and state that Russia invaded and annexed Crimea I would recommend you read this:

    http://www.iri.org/sites/default/files/2013%20October%207%20Survey%20of%20Crimean%20Public%20Opinion,%20May%2016-30,%202013.pdf

    An AMERICAN study.

    That is a very good statistics document but jesus talk about taking 1 + 1 and desperately trying to make it fit into 100!

    Russia invaded illegally the territory of another sovereign state. All this survey proves is that there were a high proportion of people within that territory who see themselves as Russian (we already knew this btw. The survey states 45% in 2009 and 40% in 2013).

    How any logical human being can look at this survey and extrapolate and use it as a justification for the illegal annexation of the territory from another sovereign state is beyond me.


  • #7278
    Elmer Blooker
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,445 ✭✭✭Elmer Blooker


    gandalf telling myself and egginacup to "try harder" is only priceless - someone who believes amateurish, crude and childish propaganda on YouTube is in no position to tell others to try harder. Stick to Marie Harf gandalf !!
    Egginacup wrote: »
    And for those of you who have the memory of a goldfish and state that Russia invaded and annexed Crimea I would recommend you read this:
    Things in Crimea seem to be running smoothly since it was reunified with Russia (part of Russia 1783-1954)
    The fact that tourists want to go there indicates that it functioning normally and peacefully. Tourists do not go anywhere near trouble spots and neither would any tour operator take their clients to a place that they would consider dangerous so fair play to them for putting their business first and ignoring bullying sanctions - compare Crimea with military junta run politically unstable Ukraine.
    I hope the NATO boys with toys don't "accidentally" sink this ship when they are playing these war games that they seem to enjoy so much in the Black Sea!
    http://www.fleetmon.com/newsroom/2014/4874/greek-cruise-liner-ocean-majesty-german-tourists-v/


  • #7279
    gandalf
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,458 ✭✭✭✭gandalf


    Elmer Blooker wrote: »
    gandalf telling myself and egginacup to "try harder" is only priceless - someone who believes amateurish, crude and childish propaganda on YouTube is in no position to tell others to try harder. Stick to Marie Harf gandalf !!

    Ah Elmer you only see what you want to. Yes I did post a "crude" youtube video and by itself you would have a very good and valid point but it was coupled with quotes and links to 11 other articles in different media outlets that when they are all viewed together give a good logical view of what happened.

    What have you offered as an alternative. Nothing except a Victoria Nuland phone call as proof of a coup. Nothing else.

    Things in Crimea seem to be running smoothly since it was reunified with Russia (part of Russia 1783-1954)
    The fact that tourists want to go there indicates that it functioning normally and peacefully. Tourists do not go anywhere near trouble spots and neither would any tour operator take their clients to a place that they would consider dangerous so fair play to them for putting their business first and ignoring bullying sanctions - compare Crimea with military junta run politically unstable Ukraine.
    I hope the NATO boys with toys don't "accidentally" sink this ship when they are playing these war games that they seem to enjoy so much in the Black Sea!
    http://www.fleetmon.com/newsroom/2014/4874/greek-cruise-liner-ocean-majesty-german-tourists-v/

    I beg to differ with you again Elmer. Things are far from better for people in Crimea, especially if you are part of a minority.
    Pro-Ukrainian activists and Tatar ethnic minorities in Crimea have found their lives under increased threat since the Ukrainian territory was annexed by Russia in March, a top European human rights diplomat said on Friday.

    Following the first international rights mission to Crimea since the annexation of the Black Sea peninsula, Nils Muiznieks, commissioner for human rights at the Council of Europe, described an atmosphere of fear for ethnic Ukrainians and Crimean Tatars, a Muslim ethnic minority.

    http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/09/12/us-ukraine-crisis-crimea-rights-idUSKBN0H720420140912
    VIENNA, 9 September 2014 – OSCE Representative on Freedom of the Media Dunja Mijatović today again expressed her concern about the intimidation of free voices in Crimea following the detention and interrogation of Yelizaveta Bohutskaya, a blogger and contributor to various media outlets, including Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty's (RFE/RL) Crimean desk, in Simferopol.

    “This detention is yet another example of the ongoing practice and attempts by the de-facto authorities in Crimea to silence critical voices. It is unacceptable and it poses a clear threat to free media in Crimea,” Mijatović said.

    http://www.osce.org/fom/123314
    ANKARA — Turkey has condemned a Russian raid on the Crimean Tatar Parliament building.

    Russian Federal Security Service officers reportedly surrounded and raided the Crimean Tatar Mejlis building on Tuesday, as well as the home of parliament member Iskender Bariyev.

    In a statement released on Wednesday, the foreign ministry said: "These kind of implementations, raiding the parliament to intimidate Crimean Tatar people who defend their democratic rights peacefully, are unacceptable."

    The Mejlis did not participate in the March referendum that resulted with the annexation of the Crimean peninsula to Russia. Nor did Crimean politicians take part in a vote to elect the Crimean State Council on Sunday.

    http://www.dailysabah.com/politics/2014/09/17/turkey-denounces-russias-raid-on-crimean-tatars
    Six months after the Republic of Crimea was annexed by Russia, a move that Ukraine and the West have refused to recognise, the peninsula remains caught in the middle of a battle between Kiev and the Kremlin.

    http://www.theweek.co.uk/russia/60273/crimea-how-daily-life-has-changed-under-russian-rule


  • #7280
    Egginacup
    Site Banned Posts: 2,922 ✭✭✭Egginacup


    gandalf wrote: »
    Jesus you are getting desperate. Have you looked at the website that blog is linked to and actually looked through the articles. Is that really the best quality material you can come up with to back up your position. That's very sad. I'd even rate RT stories higher than that article you have put up there.



    Any chance we could have proof of this or to paraphrase Queen "Is this just a fantasy"?



    Because they did.



    Wow, just wow. So in your world Putin has done no wrong at all.

    The woman's article is an op-ed piece. I for one find it well written. It makes a lot of sense.

    There are many truthful reports on ALL media outlets, even Fox. You lambaste RT not because they spread lies and disinformation but because their reports tend to show America in a poor light. I have news for you pal, that's not a very difficult thing to do. All you need to do is tell the truth and America looks bad. There were Climate Change protesters on Wall Street yesterday and dozens were arrested. The pepper spray came out too but for the most part it was fairly civilized. RT reported on it:

    http://rt.com/usa/189760-flood-wall-street-protest/

    So did MSNBC:

    http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/after-historic-climate-march-supporters-flood-wall-street

    Both stories pretty much say the same thing and concur with tweets I've read and running commentary from various feeds.

    Are you going to say that the protest never happened because RT said it did? Is that the extent of your critical thinking?

    And here you are slagging off sources and sneering at people and condescendingly telling them that they "really need to do better" when your own "sources" are a hodge-podge of fake photographs of would-be russian tanks, a schoolboy howler of a mocked up conversation and John "Beaker of Muppet Labs" Kerry saying "it was Putin because..well it just was, so there!"

    In a nutshell, gandalf, you haven't a clue what you're on about. You haven't a clue about Ukraine or what's happening there and everything that comes out of your mouth is a contradiction. You're bitterly clinging onto the "Putin is guilty" mantra because you can't think logically and you certainly can't bring yourself to stomach the possibility that you are wrong. That takes courage, a quality of which most dogmatists are woefully bereft.
    All you have is speculation and your defence mechanism when your position is shown up for the pantomime that it is, is for you to call people tinfoilers.


  • #7281
    gandalf
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,458 ✭✭✭✭gandalf


    Egginacup wrote: »
    The woman's article is an op-ed piece. I for one find it well written. It makes a lot of sense.

    Well if you are desperately trying to get something to facilitate the narrative that you have built up Egg I am sure it does.
    There are many truthful reports on ALL media outlets, even Fox. You lambaste RT not because they spread lies and disinformation but because their reports tend to show America in a poor light. I have news for you pal, that's not a very difficult thing to do. All you need to do is tell the truth and America looks bad. There were Climate Change protesters on Wall Street yesterday and dozens were arrested. The pepper spray came out too but for the most part it was fairly civilized. RT reported on it:

    http://rt.com/usa/189760-flood-wall-street-protest/

    So did MSNBC:

    http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/after-historic-climate-march-supporters-flood-wall-street

    Both stories pretty much say the same thing and concur with tweets I've read and running commentary from various feeds.

    You see there you go again deflecting from the actual topic at hand. You continually do this.

    Of course RT can report the truth when they are allowed but they also publish a lot of mistruth or propaganda as well. For all effective purposes they are Fox News for Russia with the exception they are funded and directed by the Kremlin and not some right wing Catholic pensioner and his company.

    I treat them with the same contempt I would if someone used Fox News as a source for their opinion or facts.

    And here you are slagging off sources and sneering at people and condescendingly telling them that they "really need to do better" when your own "sources" are a hodge-podge of fake photographs of would-be russian tanks, a schoolboy howler of a mocked up conversation and John "Beaker of Muppet Labs" Kerry saying "it was Putin because..well it just was, so there!"

    It's precisely because they are a "hodge-podge" of sources that they are more compelling. Multiple news sources from multiple countries with varying different political relations with Russia and they are all saying the same or similar themes. And at least I am providing multiple back up to my position, you aren't with the exception of the odd article from an "alternative" source.
    In a nutshell, gandalf, you haven't a clue what you're on about. You haven't a clue about Ukraine or what's happening there and everything that comes out of your mouth is a contradiction. You're bitterly clinging onto the "Putin is guilty" mantra because you can't think logically and you certainly can't bring yourself to stomach the possibility that you are wrong. That takes courage, a quality of which most dogmatists are woefully bereft.
    All you have is speculation and your defence mechanism when your position is shown up for the pantomime that it is, is for you to call people tinfoilers.

    That's your opinion Egg, you are entitled to express it but you are wrong.

    This final paragraph sums up the hypocritical attitude that has permeated every single engagement you have made on this thread.


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  • #7282
    Peist2007
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,257 ✭✭✭Peist2007


    Gatling wrote: »
    So basically your only here to attack me because you and others posters are so paranoid about a cia conspiracy .
    and everyone else who posts anything but Soviet propaganda are ignorant .

    There is pig ignorance alright

    No. You seem incapable of not twisting everything that is said to you.

    I never once said CIA conspiracy. Soviet propoganda? We dont hear any. Our airwaves are taken up with our own propoganda. You mention conspiracies again? I'm nearly sure i saw the coup in Kiev on tv, you saying that didnt happen? Lol.

    No point in arguing here. There are a few people who thanked the above post too and i have my suspicions that you all arent the one person. I expect that to be denied of course. Where's Piliger by the way? Was he told to stand down when it was clear he wasnt helping your side of the argument?

    If the Ruski's are paying shills in chatrooms you can be sure the Ukrainians and Americans are. This thread has seen some persistent lads who dont seem to get bored about having the same arguments daily.

    I'm out of this thread. Pointless.


  • #7283
    sparksfly
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 551 ✭✭✭sparksfly


    The main driver in all this mess is the need for the US to sell weapons.

    Create instability and provoke a war, kill any attempt at a resolution by applying sanctions and talking up non existent threats.

    These conflicts will never go away as long as those American lunatics with their NATO cronies are free to instigate mayhem time after time.

    Again in this instance, Putin has proved himself to be a strong leader who wont be pushed around, however the misery created by Obama and his lapdogs is just an extension of the rotten and corrupt US foreign policy that has blighted this planet again and again.


  • #7284
    Gatling
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    Peist2007 wrote: »
    No. You seem incapable of not twisting everything that is said to you.

    I never once said CIA conspiracy. Soviet propoganda? We dont hear any. Our airwaves are taken up with our own propoganda. You mention conspiracies again? I'm nearly sure i saw the coup in Kiev on tv, you saying that didnt happen?

    Of course there was a coup the 2nd in ten years with the same agenda the people of Ukraine want there freedom not russian boots or there puppet governments


    . There are a few people who thanked the above post too and i have my suspicions that you all arent the one person. I expect that to be denied of course. Where's Piliger by the way? Was he told to stand down when it was clear he wasnt helping your side of the argument?



    Pointless rabble rant


    I am Many

    I am Legion

    I am me

    Who is piliger ????

    Cia plant ???

    To be continued ??
    360_F_102352090_ie3kLjDIvgrT1sxVDknWCUh8PxgMYzM7.jpg




  • #7285
    Egginacup
    Site Banned Posts: 2,922 ✭✭✭Egginacup


    Elmer Blooker wrote: »
    gandalf telling myself and egginacup to "try harder" is only priceless - someone who believes amateurish, crude and childish propaganda on YouTube is in no position to tell others to try harder. Stick to Marie Harf gandalf !!


    Things in Crimea seem to be running smoothly since it was reunified with Russia (part of Russia 1783-1954)
    The fact that tourists want to go there indicates that it functioning normally and peacefully. Tourists do not go anywhere near trouble spots and neither would any tour operator take their clients to a place that they would consider dangerous so fair play to them for putting their business first and ignoring bullying sanctions - compare Crimea with military junta run politically unstable Ukraine.
    I hope the NATO boys with toys don't "accidentally" sink this ship when they are playing these war games that they seem to enjoy so much in the Black Sea!
    http://www.fleetmon.com/newsroom/2014/4874/greek-cruise-liner-ocean-majesty-german-tourists-v/


    And don't you find it truly amazing that since Russia "invaded, annexed and is occupying Crimea against the will of the vast majority of Crimeans" there is no popular resistance to the dastardly Russian occupation?

    No Crimean IRA, No Crimean Viet Cong, No Crimean Tamil Tigers, No Crimean ETA or otherwise, planting bombs and booby traps, targetting the occupation forces?

    It must be the nicest illegal, brutal, unwanted occupation of all time.


  • #7286
    Egginacup
    Site Banned Posts: 2,922 ✭✭✭Egginacup


    sheesh wrote: »
    what if the missle exploded from the back?

    Then how do you explain the entry and exit holes in the cockpit panels?


  • #7287
    BoJack Horseman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,247 ✭✭✭✭BoJack Horseman


    Egginacup wrote: »
    And don't you find it truly amazing that since Russia "invaded, annexed and is occupying Crimea against the will of the vast majority of Crimeans" there is no popular resistance to the dastardly Russian occupation?

    No Crimean IRA, No Crimean Viet Cong, No Crimean Tamil Tigers, No Crimean ETA or otherwise, planting bombs and booby traps, targetting the occupation forces?

    It must be the nicest illegal, brutal, unwanted occupation of all time.

    The absence (thus far) of militant resistance in Crimea does not & never will legitimise an act of territorial annexation of a neighbouring land.


  • #7288
    Egginacup
    Site Banned Posts: 2,922 ✭✭✭Egginacup


    gandalf wrote: »
    AGAIN YOU HAVE POSTED ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO BACK UP YOUR CLAIMS.

    Here is a fraction of what I have based my conclusion on. This has been drawn up this evening just skimming over the subject online. I have also posted other numerous links to other documents all over this thread. You on the other hand have posted BUGGER ALL. Now put up or shut up.

    Pro-Russian Rebels are the only ones shooting down planes in this conflict before MH17 was taken down.



    http://airheadsfly.com/2014/06/07/ukraine-an-26-downed-by-newest-russian-manpads/

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ukrainian_aircraft_losses_during_the_2014_pro-Russian_unrest_in_Ukraine

    Local Commander confirms that the Rebels had a BUK system in their pocession in the area the missile was fired from.



    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-07-24/mh17-ukraine-rebel-commander-acknowledges-fighters-had-buk/5619520

    http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/07/23/us-ukraine-crisis-commander-exclusive-idUSKBN0FS1V920140723?utm_source=twitter

    Social Media matches this claim as well (Social media by itself cannot be considered airtight but when added with everything else it does back up that the Rebels fired the missile that took down MH17).



    http://blog.storyful.com/2014/07/19/how-social-sleuthing-uncovered-evidence-of-anti-aircraft-missile-system-in-eastern-ukraine/#.VCBkQxZKiM8

    MH17 site was interfered with by the so-called Rebels.




    http://www.osce.org/ukraine-smm/121521



    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/mh17-crash-site-damaged-by-rebels-say-osce-inspectors-1.1874962



    http://www.ibtimes.com/cameron-dalziel-mh17-victim-had-his-credit-card-stolen-used-looters-who-robbed-crash-site-163931



    http://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-updates/mh17-prorussian-woman-ekaterina-parkhomenko-took-instagram-selfie-allegedly-wearing-stolen-makeup/story-fnizu68q-1227002294758




    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2700645/Is-moment-rebel-stole-plane-victims-ring-Outrage-picture-emerges-militia-rifling-MH17-wreckage.html

    Video

    Mh17 Black Box

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2014/jul/21/crane-removes-mh17-plane-parts-as-black-box-footage-emerges-video




    http://www.china.org.cn/world/2014-07/20/content_33003782.htm

    Again that's a fraction of the information out there from numerous different sources.

    SO I HAVE SHOWN YOU MINE, LETS SEE YOURS.

    You know, I don't know what kind of game you are trying to play here.
    But I'll repeat this for the hard of hearing:

    NOT ONE THING THAT YOU HAVE POSTED IS PROOF THAT EITHER THE RUSSIANS OR THE NOVORUSSIANS SHOT DOWN THE PLANE.

    None of it. You can continue to try and pull rabbits out of hats and convince people that they live in there with worthless bits of information like "the rebels had BUK systems".

    You can stamp your feet and shout louder and louder about fake tweets and photographic mockups but at the end of it all what you are presenting doesn't add up to a hill of beans because none of it, NONE OF IT, proves anything.


  • #7289
    Gatling
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    Machine gun fire ?????
    360_F_102352090_ie3kLjDIvgrT1sxVDknWCUh8PxgMYzM7.jpg




  • #7290
    BoJack Horseman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,247 ✭✭✭✭BoJack Horseman


    Egginacup wrote: »
    NONE OF IT, proves anything.

    Well, it certainly makes the rebels seem as guilty as a puppy sitting next to a pile of poo.

    However, because its contrary to your agenda you dismiss it.

    He shouldn't have bothered with such a long post!


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  • #7291
    gandalf
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,458 ✭✭✭✭gandalf


    Egg at least I am backing mine up with information that you can then try and poke holes in. Again a very poor effort at doing that.

    When you're asked to back up your assertions you provide VERY LITTLE and what you do provide is tainted and it is typically enveloped in an attempt to deflect or derail from the subject at hand.

    I think we are going to have to agree to disagree here but don't worry every time you try and present your opinion as fact I will call you up on it.

    Have a nice day :)


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