New Rule for eligibility to Away Opens

SnowDrifts · 16-09-2014 12:59PM

Dr.Rieux wrote: »

A fixed number of home qualifying comps in the previous 12 months, not calendar year, would do similar for handicap purposes would it?

No... I would assume one of the reasons for the qualifying rounds having to take place during the previous calendar year is to allow for end of season handicap reviews.

SaveOurLyric · 16-09-2014 01:01PM

Dr.Rieux wrote: »

That is different to joining your local club for the first time in 2015. Many people agree, and have agreed on thread, that stopping distance membership abuse is a good thing. But, is stopping full members of their local club from playing these opens a good thing all because they weren't a member last year?

I think it still is, in that it ensures some period of handicap history to be built up iunder the supervision of a club. Not unfair to be trying to restore some credibility to the handicap system. Wait a year. Big deal.

alxmorgan · 16-09-2014 01:04PM

SaveOurLyric wrote: »

I think it still is, in that it ensures some period of handicap history to be built up iunder the supervision of a club. Not unfair to be trying to restore some credibility to the handicap system. Wait a year. Big deal.

My issue here is though it does not restore credibility to the system as it has no affect on team comps which are, I would argue generally accepted, the bigger issue.

And it is not strange that I can compete in my home club after 3 cards but have to wait a year on away courses even though the handicap system does handle singles scores correctly and automatically ?

SaveOurLyric · 16-09-2014 01:10PM

alxmorgan wrote: »

My issue here is though it does not restore credibility to the system as it has no affect on team comps which are, I would argue generally accepted, the bigger issue.

And it is not strange that I can compete in my home club after 3 cards but have to wait a year on away courses even though the handicap system does handle singles scores correctly and automatically ?

It doesnt cure cancer either, but not being a cure for all ills doesnt mean a step in the right direction isnt better than nothing. Its a small tweak sure. But I'll take it. Dont get me started on the corruption of team comps.........

Dr.Rieux · 16-09-2014 01:25PM

SaveOurLyric wrote: »

I think it still is, in that it ensures some period of handicap history to be built up iunder the supervision of a club. Not unfair to be trying to restore some credibility to the handicap system. Wait a year. Big deal.

There have been two arguments for this, one about the handicaps which this helps. And another about the cost of entry to golf. On the cost this is just a reversal, ie more privileges less cash, albeit at a smaller scale.

I think bandits will still find a way no matter what and not so sure if this will help a huge amount. It will inconvenience bandits who are distance members, but maybe they will be selective about higher value opens then to make up for the inconvenience. I am assuming they are the type of people who won't let this stop them.

bmc58 · 16-09-2014 01:29PM

Your H/C could be suspended if you don,t play the 3 rounds at your "home club".
And then you won't be able to play anywhere in those Opens.

bmc58 · 16-09-2014 01:36PM

Simple to do.On the players H/c record there's a box the H/C can tick "Handicap Suspended".The next time Club records are sent off to Golf Net the players card will not be accepted anywhere.

bmc58 · 16-09-2014 01:38PM

Those type of "Clubs" wouldn't last long.

bobwilliams · 16-09-2014 01:45PM

dk1982 wrote: »

You sound like you have serious anger issues. Take a holiday or something chief. Your blood pressure must be through the roof.

100% agree and what a load if horse****e, get rid of the open days??? Jesus wept he needs an economics lesson on top of everything else

geeksauce · 16-09-2014 01:51PM

In relation to people joining clubs for the first time in 2015 why couldn't they bring in an allowance to the rule whereby if they play in 3 qualifying comps at their home club during 2015 they can then be activated to play in open comps in other clubs.

This would remove the unfairness of not being able to play in away open comps for a year and would encourage people to play comps at home at the earliest available time which should result in them becoming more involved with their own club and playing more often there too.

GreeBo · 16-09-2014 01:55PM

Dr.Rieux wrote: »

As part of a membership you get GUI membership, for a fee. This membership entitles you to play in open competitions. If you are immediately disqualified from opens should you GUI membership cost the same?

A fixed number of home qualifying comps in the previous 12 months, not calendar year, would do similar for handicap purposes would it?

GUI membership is about far more than being able to play in opens.

How much of a discount would you like from the 15 euro exactly?

If you dont want to be a member of the GUI then dont join, but they give you a handicap so either follow their rules or dont, you cant pick and choose the options that suit your scenario and expect the rest of the world to subsidise your choices.

GreeBo · 16-09-2014 01:56PM

alxmorgan wrote: »

My issue here is though it does not restore credibility to the system as it has no affect on team comps which are, I would argue generally accepted, the bigger issue.

And it is not strange that I can compete in my home club after 3 cards but have to wait a year on away courses even though the handicap system does handle singles scores correctly and automatically ?

You cant play in inter club in your first year either so whats the difference?

You probably cant win the majors in your first year in your home club anyway?

GreeBo · 16-09-2014 01:58PM

geeksauce wrote: »

In relation to people joining clubs for the first time in 2015 why couldn't they bring in an allowance to the rule whereby if they play in 3 qualifying comps at their home club during 2015 they can then be activated to play in open comps in other clubs.

This would remove the unfairness of not being able to play in away open comps for a year and would encourage people to play comps at home at the earliest available time which should result in them becoming more involved with their own club and playing more often there too.

Your handicap is probably miles off if you have only ever played 3 comps.

I dont see what the "unfairness" is.
New drivers cant drive on their own for a while but old drivers can...is that "unfair" too?

GreeBo · 16-09-2014 02:02PM

bobwilliams wrote: »

100% agree and what a load if horse****e, get rid of the open days??? Jesus wept he needs an economics lesson on top of everything else

bobwilliams this style of posting is unacceptable, attack the post not the poster

Dr.Rieux · 16-09-2014 02:25PM

GreeBo wrote: »

GUI membership is about far more than being able to play in opens.

How much of a discount would you like from the 15 euro exactly?

If you dont want to be a member of the GUI then dont join, but they give you a handicap so either follow their rules or dont, you cant pick and choose the options that suit your scenario and expect the rest of the world to subsidise your choices.[\B]

Except in the case of first time golfers they're not looking to be subsidised. They are paying the same amount as long(er) standing members and are getting less, effectively subsidising the long(er) standing members. The money involved is a pittance (a fraction of the 15 euro) I know but still, as said, you can't expect the rest of the world to subsidise your choices.

GreeBo · 16-09-2014 02:27PM

Dr.Rieux wrote: »

Except in the case of first time golfers they're not looking to be subsidised. They are paying the same amount as long(er) standing members and are getting less, effectively subsidising the long(er) standing members. The money involved is a pittance (a fraction of the 15 euro) I know but still, as said, you can't expect the rest of the world to subsidise your choices.

I honestly don't get what you are having an issue with, either its about the money or its not.
Do you pay less in your first year of driving or your first year as a club member?
Its one of the prerequisites of joining the GUI, you arent eligible for everything off the bat....is that really such a crazy idea that the GUI made up...I dont think so.

Dr.Rieux · 16-09-2014 02:37PM

GreeBo wrote: »

I honestly don't get what you are having an issue with, either its about the money or its not.
Do you pay less in your first year of driving or your first year as a club member?
Its one of the prerequisites of joining the GUI, you arent eligible for everything off the bat....is that really such a crazy idea that the GUI made up...I dont think so.

Being honest GreeBo I haven't an issue either way. I'm planning on joining a club next year but hadn't planned on playing opens. I'd like to be able to score consistently before I start playing opens all over the place, and the best ways to do that I feel are lessons and playing the same course to begin with.

I'm keen on a handicap for my own interest but am more than happy to play casual rounds.

I'm just trying to look at this from an other side. I think it was m r c who said earlier, this may be an I intended consequence of the rules changing.

alxmorgan · 16-09-2014 02:41PM

GreeBo wrote: »

I honestly don't get what you are having an issue with, either its about the money or its not.
Do you pay less in your first year of driving or your first year as a club member?
Its one of the prerequisites of joining the GUI, you arent eligible for everything off the bat....is that really such a crazy idea that the GUI made up...I dont think so.

No but to take away something that new full members had until now...at a time when attracting new members is getting more and more difficult does seem, if not crazy, then a little bit lacking in nuance.

I don't think the stated aim of this was anything to do with new full members but it is negatively affecting them all the same. I'll give you one example. A good friend of mine was a full member for years but has been out for two years with injury. He will re-join (hopefully) in January but will be denied the chance to play in open competitions through not fault of his own. He can play 30 qualifying competitions and still not be allowed play in an open.

People are talking about collateral damage. I've said it before and I'll say it again...it's just lazy and it didn't have to be this way.

GreeBo · 16-09-2014 02:53PM

alxmorgan wrote: »

No but to take away something that new full members had until now...at a time when attracting new members is getting more and more difficult does seem, if not crazy, then a little bit lacking in nuance.

I don't think the stated aim of this was anything to do with new full members but it is negatively affecting them all the same. I'll give you one example. A good friend of mine was a full member for years but has been out for two years with injury. He will re-join (hopefully) in January but will be denied the chance to play in open competitions through not fault of his own. He can play 30 qualifying competitions and still not be allowed play in an open.

People are talking about collateral damage. I've said it before and I'll say it again...it's just lazy and it didn't have to be this way.

But there is no such thing as "new full members until now" in reality.
The argument is the same as "the price for new members was X now its 2x, thats unfair".

No one is saying its his fault, its just a fact of life in your first year, I see it as having to prove your handicap is up to date and think its a good thing.

alxmorgan · 16-09-2014 02:57PM

GreeBo wrote: »

But there is no such thing as "new full members until now" in reality.
The argument is the same as "the price for new members was X now its 2x, thats unfair".

No one is saying its his fault, its just a fact of life in your first year, I see it as having to prove your handicap is up to date and think its a good thing.

But it is not achieving it's aim. A guy can play 3 qualifying round in 2014 and a guy joining in 2015 can play 20 but the guy with 3 cards in can play opens in 2015 and the guy with 20 in can't. So the guy who's handicap is more reflective is the one punished. Makes no sense to me. Lack of nuance...that is all I am saying

geeksauce · 16-09-2014 03:08PM

GreeBo wrote: »

Your handicap is probably miles off if you have only ever played 3 comps.

I dont see what the "unfairness" is.
New drivers cant drive on their own for a while but old drivers can...is that "unfair" too?

No your driver analogy is not unfair but tbh they are completely unrelated and the analogy doesn't exactly work.

I don't think it is completely implausible to think your handicap wouldn't be miles off if you only played in 3 comps, I have played in a good few more than 3 however my handicap hasn't changed drastically this year at all.

geeksauce · 16-09-2014 03:13PM

GreeBo wrote: »

But there is no such thing as "new full members until now" in reality.
The argument is the same as "the price for new members was X now its 2x, thats unfair".

No one is saying its his fault, its just a fact of life in your first year, I see it as having to prove your handicap is up to date and think its a good thing.

How is it proving your handicap is up to date though? I could play in only 3 comps next year at my own club thereby qualifying me to play in away comps in 2016. I could spend the whole year practicing meaning my handicap wouldn't be up to date even though I have qualified for away comps in 2015 and 2016.

Someone joining my club in 2015 could play in home comps at every available opportunity racking up more than 50 rounds vs my 3, their handicap is up to date mine isn't yet in 2016 we can both play in away comps.

PARlance · 16-09-2014 03:14PM

geeksauce wrote: »

No your driver analogy is not unfair but tbh they are completely unrelated and the analogy doesn't exactly work.

I don't think it is completely implausible to think your handicap wouldn't be miles off if you only played in 3 comps, I have played in a good few more than 3 however my handicap hasn't changed drastically this year at all.

Completely agree, once you have your HC that is that, you're not on a "provisional licence".
Greebo, I think your thoughts on that contradict this

GreeBo wrote: »

If you dont want to be a member of the GUI then dont join, but they give you a handicap so either follow their rules or dont, you cant pick and choose the options that suit your scenario.

The rules are the rules. Your initial HC is your HC and there is no magic number of rounds where it suddenly becomes real.

ezra_ · 16-09-2014 03:17PM

I'm quite confused by a lot of this.

I'm a new member. Got my handicap this year.

Can I:
1) play in other course and have my results there contributing towards my overall H/C?
2) play in competitions in other clubs?

Cheers!

geeksauce · 16-09-2014 03:20PM

ezra_ wrote: »

I'm quite confused by a lot of this.

I'm a new member. Got my handicap this year.

Can I:
1) play in other course and have my results there contributing towards my overall H/C?
2) play in competitions in other clubs?

Cheers!

Yes and yes.

However if you have not played in 3 comps at your own club this year then next year it will be

No and No.

geeksauce · 16-09-2014 03:24PM

On a side note have any clubs issued anything to members regarding this rule change, my club hasn't and if I hadn't seen it here I wouldn't have known about it.

ezra_ · 16-09-2014 03:27PM

geeksauce wrote: »

Yes and yes.

However if you have not played in 3 comps at your own club this year then next year it will be

No and No.

I presume comps under winter rules count?

PARlance · 16-09-2014 03:27PM

Was just thinking that this is an awful lot of fuss for a couple of thousand or so distance golfers (~0.5% of golfers in Ireland).

But maybe it's not about these distance members at all. A far bigger headache for most clubs (and they're the guys ultimately proposing this not the GUI) is the retention of golfers.
Golfers have become far more likely to move from club to club (unless paying or having to pay entrance fees).
Maybe this rule is designed to make golfers "stickier" to their club?
Newbies (completely new to golf) won't really mind that much about not being allowed in opens, but as a current member and someone who likes to test myself on other courses (competitively in Opens), then I would seriously consider changing my club if it meant that I couldn't play opens the following year.

GreeBo · 16-09-2014 03:33PM

PARlance wrote: »

Completely agree, once you have your HC that is that, you're not on a "provisional licence".
Greebo, I think your thoughts on that contradict this

The rules are the rules. Your initial HC is your HC and there is no magic number of rounds where it suddenly becomes real.

You are effectively on a provisional because people game the system and we get threads complaining about X winning whatever.

Actually there is a magic number, for inter club its 4, for intra club, in my club its 7 or something, for opens it will soon be 3.

alxmorgan · 16-09-2014 03:33PM

PARlance wrote: »

Was just thinking that this is an awful lot of fuss for a couple of thousand or so distance golfers (~0.5% of golfers in Ireland).

But maybe it's not about these distance members at all. A far bigger headache for most clubs (and they're the guys ultimately proposing this not the GUI) is the retention of golfers.
Golfers have become far more likely to move from club to club (unless paying or having to pay entrance fees).
Maybe this rule is designed to make golfers "stickier" to their club?
Newbies (completely new to golf) won't really mind that much about not being allowed in opens, but as a current member and someone who likes to test myself on other courses (competitively in Opens), then I would seriously consider changing my club if it meant that I couldn't play opens the following year.

But is that part of this at all ?
I presumed once you had 3 qualifying scores you could change club and still play opens ?

New Rule for eligibility to Away Opens

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