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New Rule for eligibility to Away Opens

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    #362
    SaveOurLyric
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,138 ✭✭✭SaveOurLyric


    alxmorgan wrote: »
    I just think if you are changing the rules of something you have an obligation to inform people

    I do agree. But I wouldnt expect them to really.
    Observing that the motivation they are coming from is a 'lets stop people playing in opens who dont have enough cards in the year before' one, and not a 'lets encourage people to put in cards so they can play in opens' one. So their perspective is not one of helping those who they are setting out to curtail.


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    #363
    dk1982
    Registered Users Posts: 262 ✭✭dk1982


    SaveOurLyric wrote: »
    I do agree. But I wouldnt expect them to really.
    Observing that the motivation they are coming from is a 'lets stop people playing in opens who dont have enough cards in the year before' one, and not a 'lets encourage people to put in cards so they can play in opens' one. So their perspective is not one of helping those who they are setting out to curtail.

    From my perspective ive only been a member a few weeks so have only had time to play in 2 qualifying home comps so far. Its not the scenario where ive been a member all year and just played away opens , so i'm now rushing to get 3 cards in. So, I think I probably should have been informed really.


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    #364
    GreeBo
    Registered Users Posts: 27,126 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    SaveOurLyric wrote: »
    I do agree. But I wouldnt expect them to really.
    Observing that the motivation they are coming from is a 'lets stop people playing in opens who dont have enough cards in the year before' one, and not a 'lets encourage people to put in cards so they can play in opens' one. So their perspective is not one of helping those who they are setting out to curtail.

    I would actually disagree slightly.
    I think the rule is more like "lets stop people who wouldnt normally have played 3 in the previous year"
    Same point though, rule is worthless if everyone heads off for 2 weeks to get them all in.


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    #365
    alxmorgan
    Registered Users Posts: 2,824 ✭✭✭alxmorgan


    GreeBo wrote: »
    I would actually disagree slightly.
    I think the rule is more like "lets stop people who wouldnt normally have played 3 in the previous year"
    Same point though, rule is worthless if everyone heads off for 2 weeks to get them all in.

    Will that not make it worthless next year then when everyone does know ?


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    #366
    GreeBo
    Registered Users Posts: 27,126 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    alxmorgan wrote: »
    Will that not make it worthless next year then when everyone does know ?

    I think "worthless" is a bit strong, there will be some who give up the distance membership as they deem it not worth it, who knows what they bring in next year too.
    Also a years worth of opens without these people may shed some interesting results.


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    #367
    bobster453
    Registered Users Posts: 648 ✭✭✭bobster453


    I think this motion was disingenuous to say the least.Between this and gsr's effecticely it is saying the handicap system is wrong and we dont trust handicap secretarys to do their job properly.
    Imo this motion was all about the expectation that members of clubs some distance from their home will give up that membership to join a club closer to home for the convenience of not having to travel to play three cards.
    I believe time will show this not to be the case.People will just stop playing altogether if their local clubs are more expensive than their distance one denying the gui the benefit of their sub


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    #368
    dk1982
    Registered Users Posts: 262 ✭✭dk1982


    Just to clarify with this rule...so a person who has never been a member of a golf club before, joins a club in January 2015, gets his handicap after handing in his 3 cards, but will not be allowed to play in open comps at away clubs until 2016 (presuming he has played at least 3 qualifying comps at his home club in 2015)?


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    #369
    alxmorgan
    Registered Users Posts: 2,824 ✭✭✭alxmorgan


    dk1982 wrote: »
    Just to clarify with this rule...so a person who has never been a member of a golf club before, joins a club in January 2015, gets his handicap after handing in his 3 cards, but will not be allowed to play in open comps at away clubs until 2016 (presuming he has played at least 3 qualifying comps at his home club in 2015)?

    Yes and this is my biggest issue with it.


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    #370
    dk1982
    Registered Users Posts: 262 ✭✭dk1982


    alxmorgan wrote: »
    Yes and this is my biggest issue with it.

    Same here. Surely that's a bit self defeating and will put alot of people off joining clubs i.e. people will just stick to cheap green fees on teetimes.ie etc rather than fork out to join a club if they're not going to be able to avail of the perk of being able to play in open comps on other courses. As i said earlier I joined a club a few weeks ago (not just so i could play in open comps on away courses btw...my home course is 10 minutes from my house so I'll be playing very regularly there), but if I had waited until January and then found out about this new rule then i may have reconsidered.
    By the way I'm not saying bandits should be given a free ride at all, I'm just saying I dont think this is the way to do it.


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    #371
    GreeBo
    Registered Users Posts: 27,126 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    dk1982 wrote: »
    Same here. Surely that's a bit self defeating and will put alot of people off joining clubs i.e. people will just stick to cheap green fees on teetimes.ie etc rather than fork out to join a club if they're not going to be able to avail of the perk of being able to play in open comps on other courses. As i said earlier I joined a club a few weeks ago (not just so i could play in open comps on away courses btw...my home course is 10 minutes from my house so I'll be playing very regularly there), but if I had waited until January and then found out about this new rule then i may have reconsidered.
    By the way I'm not saying bandits should be given a free ride at all, I'm just saying I dont think this is the way to do it.

    It will only impact people who were planning on joining a club and playing most of their golf somewhere else imo, which is what its trying to address.

    To me its the exact same as inter club and most club comps where you cant win in your first year.


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    #372
    m r c
    Closed Accounts Posts: 802 ✭✭✭m r c


    Being allowed to play in away opens is a privalage not a right.

    So play away in your home club for 1 year or pay green fees if you want to see other courses. Jeeze no one died.


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    #373
    SaveOurLyric
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,138 ✭✭✭SaveOurLyric


    bobster453 wrote: »
    Between this and gsr's effecticely it is saying the handicap system is wrong and we dont trust handicap secretarys to do their job properly.

    Not the case.
    - the handicap system has been refined
    - we trust handicap secretaries to do their job one they are provided with the raw material of a scoring history by the players they are regulating


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    #374
    SaveOurLyric
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,138 ✭✭✭SaveOurLyric


    alxmorgan wrote: »
    Yes and this is my biggest issue with it.

    I'm fine with it. Its just a once-off collateral damage to a tiny majority in the context of a bigger picture. Too bad.


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    #375
    Dr.Rieux
    Registered Users Posts: 674 ✭✭✭Dr.Rieux


    m r c wrote: »
    Being allowed to play in away opens is a privalage not a right.

    So play away in your home club for 1 year or pay green fees if you want to see other courses. Jeeze no one died.

    While I don't see an issue with the rule, should there be a slight membership reduction for the first year? In the first year you would be getting less for your membership fee.

    Clubs like Athlone have an introductory discount for the first year (and second I think), so perhaps they should have some privileges removed?

    Unfortunately despite what I had hoped, it will be next year at the earliest before I can get membership so it will put me in the position of not being able to play opens. However, having not played competitive golf up until this point I don't know what I'm missing out on so am happy enough to wait a year until opens.


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    #376
    alxmorgan
    Registered Users Posts: 2,824 ✭✭✭alxmorgan


    SaveOurLyric wrote: »
    I'm fine with it. Its just a once-off collateral damage to a tiny majority in the context of a bigger picture. Too bad.

    This is the kind of attitude which harms the game IMHO. Game is already struggling and now we have a too bad attitude thrown in on top. Once-off it may be but sometimes that it all it takes to lose people to the game.


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    #377
    SaveOurLyric
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,138 ✭✭✭SaveOurLyric


    alxmorgan wrote: »
    Once-off it may be but sometimes that it all it takes to lose people to the game.

    If thats the cost of an an overall benefit to the game then its a price deemed worth paying.
    Remember, the rule is to address an abuse of the system that the majority of golf club members want curtailed - the exploitation of the open day by those for whom it was not intended (dodgy unmonitored handicaps if you wish, and/or, with a subtext of freeloaders not paying their way for access to competitive GUI golf on good golf courses, take your pick).


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    #378
    alxmorgan
    Registered Users Posts: 2,824 ✭✭✭alxmorgan


    SaveOurLyric wrote: »
    If thats the cost of an an overall benefit to the game then its a price deemed worth paying.
    Remember, the rule is to address an abuse of the system that the majority of golf club members want curtailed - the exploitation of the open day by those for whom it was not intended (dodgy unmonitored handicaps if you wish, and/or, with a subtext of freeloaders not paying their way for access to competitive GUI golf on good golf courses, take your pick).

    That would be fine if you are losing the right people (or the wrong people in this case). Seems lazy to not come up with a rule that allows those for whom opens were intended - full club members - to play in them. And yes I know its only the first year but a year is a long time if all your mates play in them and you can't or you are a solo golfer a lot of the time and need opens to be able to play away courses bar on your lonesome.


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    #379
    m r c
    Closed Accounts Posts: 802 ✭✭✭m r c


    Golf and the irish golfing public need to cut the ****, if everyone joined this Tipp course or wherever the hell it is thats offering cheap membership golf in Ireland falls apart end of. This attitude of i cant afford full membership but how can i swing it cheaper with the least possible impact to me is bollocks.

    If u are buying your GUI card for under a couple hundred euro or less and playing all your local courses when they have opens you are taking the piss.

    Golf is expensive, get over it and you have zero entitlement to have it provided to you at less than cost price.

    I'm wondering if getting rid of the "open day" altogether wouldn't be a great move. Sod it. Pay to play locally, play interclub or pay green fees. The idea of paying less for opens comes from the idea that you are supporting your local golf club already and the host club was giving you a reduction as gratuity.


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    #380
    dk1982
    Registered Users Posts: 262 ✭✭dk1982


    m r c wrote: »
    Golf and the irish golfing public need to cut the ****, if everyone joined this Tipp course or wherever the hell it is thats offering cheap membership golf in Ireland falls apart end of. This attitude of i cant afford full membership but how can i swing it cheaper with the least possible impact to me is bollocks.

    If u are buying your GUI card for under a couple hundred euro or less and playing all your local courses when they have opens you are taking the piss.

    Golf is expensive, get over it and you have zero entitlement to have it provided to you at less than cost price.

    I'm wondering if getting rid of the "open day" altogether wouldn't be a great move. Sod it. Pay to play locally, play interclub or pay green fees. The idea of paying less for opens comes from the idea that you are supporting your local golf club already and the host club was giving you a reduction as gratuity.

    You sound like you have serious anger issues. Take a holiday or something chief. Your blood pressure must be through the roof.


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    #381
    Dr.Rieux
    Registered Users Posts: 674 ✭✭✭Dr.Rieux


    m r c wrote: »
    Golf and the irish golfing public need to cut the ****, if everyone joined this Tipp course or wherever the hell it is thats offering cheap membership golf in Ireland falls apart end of. This attitude of i cant afford full membership but how can i swing it cheaper with the least possible impact to me is bollocks.

    If u are buying your GUI card for under a couple hundred euro or less and playing all your local courses when they have opens you are taking the piss.

    Golf is expensive, get over it and you have zero entitlement to have it provided to you at less than cost price.

    I'm wondering if getting rid of the "open day" altogether wouldn't be a great move. Sod it. Pay to play locally, play interclub or pay green fees. The idea of paying less for opens comes from the idea that you are supporting your local golf club already and the host club was giving you a reduction as gratuity.

    That is different to joining your local club for the first time in 2015. Many people agree, and have agreed on thread, that stopping distance membership abuse is a good thing. But, is stopping full members of their local club from playing these opens a good thing all because they weren't a member last year?


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    #382
    m r c
    Closed Accounts Posts: 802 ✭✭✭m r c


    Dr.Rieux wrote: »
    That is different to joining your local club for the first time in 2015. Many people agree, and have agreed on thread, that stopping distance membership abuse is a good thing. But, is stopping full members of their local club from playing these opens a good thing all because they weren't a member last year?

    Agreed two separate issues totally and i have sympathy for anyone in that position. Stopping full local members playing opens locally seems like its something of an unintended consequence or that they are collateral damage as it were.


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    #383
    m r c
    Closed Accounts Posts: 802 ✭✭✭m r c


    dk1982 wrote: »
    You sound like you have serious anger issues. Take a holiday or something chief. Your blood pressure must be through the roof.

    Lol

    Look I'm pure fed up of people trying to justify this distance membership thing thats all.
    What ever way i misrepresented my blood pressure or not doesn't effect my point.


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    #384
    Dr.Rieux
    Registered Users Posts: 674 ✭✭✭Dr.Rieux


    m r c wrote: »
    Agreed two separate issues totally and i have sympathy for anyone in that position. Stopping full local members playing opens locally seems like its something of an unintended consequence or that they are collateral damage as it were.

    I suspect you're right there, although I say now it shouldn't affect me, it probably will, so hopefully there's something there in the rule for new members next year :P


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    #385
    GreeBo
    Registered Users Posts: 27,126 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    Dr.Rieux wrote: »
    That is different to joining your local club for the first time in 2015. Many people agree, and have agreed on thread, that stopping distance membership abuse is a good thing. But, is stopping full members of their local club from playing these opens a good thing all because they weren't a member last year?

    If its the first club then I have no problem, it takes a year at least to confirm a handicap is "correct".
    If they were in another club and didnt play the 3 rounds last year then I still dont see an issue, why werent they playing?


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    #386
    GreeBo
    Registered Users Posts: 27,126 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    dk1982 wrote: »
    You sound like you have serious anger issues. Take a holiday or something chief. Your blood pressure must be through the roof.

    dk1982 please do not make personal attacks against a poster.


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    #387
    Dr.Rieux
    Registered Users Posts: 674 ✭✭✭Dr.Rieux


    GreeBo wrote: »
    If its the first club then I have no problem, it takes a year at least to confirm a handicap is "correct".
    If they were in another club and didnt play the 3 rounds last year then I still dont see an issue, why werent they playing?

    Should there be a reduced membership fee for the first year? As you would be getting less for the fee.

    Or make opens cost the same as a standard green fee. No more playing other courses on the cheap.


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    #388
    GreeBo
    Registered Users Posts: 27,126 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    Dr.Rieux wrote: »
    Should there be a reduced membership fee for the first year? As you would be getting less for the fee.

    Or make opens cost the same as a standard green fee. No more playing other courses on the cheap.

    Why?
    The are getting the same from the club that everyone else is getting.
    Its a condition of membership to the GUI.


    Its akin to horse racing where trainers keep a good horse secret until the gold cup and then make a killing on it before they are properly handicapped.


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    #389
    Dr.Rieux
    Registered Users Posts: 674 ✭✭✭Dr.Rieux


    GreeBo wrote: »
    Why?
    The are getting the same from the club that everyone else is getting.
    Its a condition of membership to the GUI.


    Its akin to horse racing where trainers keep a good horse secret until the gold cup and then make a killing on it before they are properly handicapped.

    As part of a membership you get GUI membership, for a fee. This membership entitles you to play in open competitions. If you are immediately disqualified from opens should you GUI membership cost the same?

    A fixed number of home qualifying comps in the previous 12 months, not calendar year, would do similar for handicap purposes would it?


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    #390
    First Up
    Registered Users Posts: 14,822 ✭✭✭✭First Up


    Dr.Rieux wrote: »
    As part of a membership you get GUI membership, for a fee. This membership entitles you to play in open competitions. If you are immediately disqualified from opens should you GUI membership cost the same?

    A fixed number of home qualifying comps in the previous 12 months, not calendar year, would do similar for handicap purposes would it?

    You get your GUI membership for a reduced fee. Getting reduced benefits is a perfectly reasonable quid pro quo.


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    #391
    SaveOurLyric
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,138 ✭✭✭SaveOurLyric


    dk1982 wrote: »
    You sound like you have serious anger issues. Take a holiday or something chief. Your blood pressure must be through the roof.

    He is on the money in the main though.

    The proliferation of opens in recent time though is really just showing the demand for reduced greenfees but just not allowing the whole world in on the reduction. Keeps the riffraff off the courses but allows the real golfers to enjoy other courses. The original idea of the 'open week'. The change is just nudging it back in that direction a little and is a good thing imo.


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