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Beef in Crisis

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Comments

  • #782
    rangler1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,497 ✭✭✭rangler1


    Abfg wrote: »
    Could n't have put it better myself! But then again that would take vision, foresight and above all a pair of balls which as you can see from ranglers ramblings they dont have. Clueless people lead by personal gain!!!!!!

    Ya got it in one , sure we'll have the crack anyway
    then I'll go back to my nice sheep enterprise etc, etc , etc
    'Twas tragic ,,,,got CPO'd at the height of the Celtic tiger...tragic:mad:


  • #783
    Abfg
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 47 ✭Abfg


    rangler1 wrote: »
    Ya got it in one , sure we'll have the crack anyway
    then I'll go back to my nice sheep enterprise etc, etc , etc
    'Twas tragic ,,,,got CPO'd at the height of the Celtic tiger...tragic:mad:

    More rambling nonsense!!!!!!!!!!!!!


  • #784
    rangler1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,497 ✭✭✭rangler1


    Abfg wrote: »
    More rambling nonsense!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    we're doing a hit at the end of the week , see if you can spot me on the telly,
    better still, come along:D:D:D:D:D:D


  • #785
    tim04750
    Closed Accounts Posts: 216 ✭✭tim04750


    Why not publicise it with an add in the journal and let the real hillbilly ****kickers join in the fun.Don't mind yer auld texts to the boys that can keep a straight line and march in step.


  • #786
    sandydan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,471 ✭✭✭sandydan


    Abfg wrote: »
    Could n't have put it better myself! But then again that would take vision, foresight and above all a pair of balls which as you can see from ranglers ramblings they dont have. Clueless people lead by personal gain!!!!!!
    careful or point you may be making could be missed,a bit like an own goal


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  • #787
    sandydan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,471 ✭✭✭sandydan


    tim04750 wrote: »
    It did happen a number of years ago and the competition authority did take action I'll see if I can find and post a link

    http://www.tca.ie/images/uploaded/documents/2007-04-19%20Reference_ECJ.pdf

    ive speed read it,and if my interpretation of final paragraph is correct did competition authority win that case or was that their legal argument only, im inclined to think they stopped the dept of agriculture from carrying out proposal


  • #788
    tim04750
    Closed Accounts Posts: 216 ✭✭tim04750


    sandydan wrote: »
    ive speed read it,and if my interpretation of final paragraph is correct did competition authority win that case or was that their legal argument only, im inclined to think they stopped the dept of agriculture from carrying out proposal

    The way I read it is that ca won the appeal based on the interpretation of article 81 by the court of justice which held the arrangements were a stifling of competition by design even if it didn't result in such.

    Clearer article here
    http://www.tca.ie/en/Enforcing-Competition-Law/Civil-Court-Cases/Beef-Industry.aspx


  • #789
    Abfg
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 47 ✭Abfg


    sandydan wrote: »
    careful or point you may be making could be missed,a bit like an own goal

    Here's one to think about, if you were to take a vote of all the beef farmers in the country and ask them is it right that Larry is allowed own massive feedlots while having the biggest meat processing facilities in the country what would the majority say?
    We can take it that you would get a resounding objection!
    Has any farming organisation made any representation to the goverment looking to stop this practice?
    What would Larry tell them to do with their levies (3m euro per year) if they (IFA) even attempted it???
    Now you'll probably have Larry's boys on here saying he is quiet entitled to do what he wants it's a free country but if he lived in some states in the US it's against the LAW and he'd end up in jail. Wouldn't that be a sight, sweet dreams!!!!!!


  • #790
    Good loser
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,283 ✭✭✭Good loser


    Abfg wrote: »
    Here's one to think about, if you were to take a vote of all the beef farmers in the country and ask them is it right that Larry is allowed own massive feedlots while having the biggest meat processing facilities in the country what would the majority say?
    We can take it that you would get a resounding objection!
    Has any farming organisation made any representation to the goverment looking to stop this practice?
    What would Larry tell them to do with their levies (3m euro per year) if they (IFA) even attempted it???
    Now you'll probably have Larry's boys on here saying he is quiet entitled to do what he wants it's a free country but if he lived in some states in the US it's against the LAW and he'd end up in jail. Wouldn't that be a sight, sweet dreams!!!!!!

    You're way over the top in your comments.

    I'm at this business 40+ years. There was never great money in beef and there never will be. The high prices of a few years ago were an abberation and were never going to last.

    It would be pure luck if price goes to €4 again in the next five years.

    The factories follow the market and don't make it. Protesting is a complete waste of time. (I got €3.05 a kg this week for two o/a bullocks).

    What does matter is the (possible) EU trade deals with US and South America.


  • #791
    Abfg
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 47 ✭Abfg


    rangler1 wrote: »
    we're doing a hit at the end of the week , see if you can spot me on the telly,
    better still, come along:D:D:D:D:D:D

    And more nonsense!!! Struggling a bit????????


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  • #792
    Nettleman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 651 ✭✭✭Nettleman


    Good loser wrote: »
    You're way over the top in your comments.

    I'm at this business 40+ years. There was never great money in beef and there never will be. The high prices of a few years ago were an abberation and were never going to last.

    It would be pure luck if price goes to €4 again in the next five years.

    The factories follow the market and don't make it. Protesting is a complete waste of time. (I got €3.05 a kg this week for two o/a bullocks).

    What does matter is the (possible) EU trade deals with US and South America.

    If you represent a factory, you should declare it.., I think its Larry and the boys who are afraid of the yankee meat, and trying to put the frighteners on the rest of us, as they need our support to hault it, that cuts both ways baby !


  • #793
    Username John
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,237 ✭✭✭Username John


    Abfg wrote: »
    That's exactly the point in your last sentence, at the moment the farmer has nobody between them and the factory. The IFA are seen to be in bed with them and are not trusted!
    Select people that the farmer can trust that have a proven track record in negotiation/arbatration, then put it to a vote and the people with the majority are selected.
    The group can set targets to be achieved and they can be replaced if they are not up to standard.
    The problem we have in Ireland at the moment is the majority of farmers have lost all trust in the IFA!! e.g. Hill Farmers fair play to them!!!!
    Small farmers and big farmers are split down the middle after the SFP fiasco.
    We need a new approach!

    Hi Abfg,

    Sorry for late response.

    So - you want to get a group of professionals to negotiate with the factories - which is fine.
    These professionals should be selected by farmers, by some kinda vote - ok

    The post reads to me
    "I want a group like the IFA, but not the IFA, to use negotiators in their dealings with the factories"

    I can understand where you're coming from, you're not happy with the IFA, and would like to see a change.

    But the practical logistics of putting together some new group or organisation, to employ negotiators, to negotiate a deal for maybe a handful of farmers...
    Maybe I'm reading it wrong. It might be a good idea in theory, but I am not sure it is achievable in practice...

    But... is this the idea of these Producer Groups? They negotiate a deal direct with the factories?
    Maybe this is more in line what you are proposing above?


  • #794
    rangler1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,497 ✭✭✭rangler1


    Username John wrote: »
    Hi Abfg,

    Sorry for late response.

    So - you want to get a group of professionals to negotiate with the factories - which is fine.
    These professionals should be selected by farmers, by some kinda vote - ok

    The post reads to me
    "I want a group like the IFA, but not the IFA, to use negotiators in their dealings with the factories"

    I can understand where you're coming from, you're not happy with the IFA, and would like to see a change.

    But the practical logistics of putting together some new group or organisation, to employ negotiators, to negotiate a deal for maybe a handful of farmers...
    Maybe I'm reading it wrong. It might be a good idea in theory, but I am not sure it is achievable in practice...

    But... is this the idea of these Producer Groups? They negotiate a deal direct with the factories?
    Maybe this is more in line what you are proposing above?

    Our lamb producer group works very well, unfortunately it follows the market, but we'd be getting the top market price,
    We work with the factory helping with promotions, we have a guy coming from England next month to look at the factory and look at our stock to see can we do things better.
    Really pleased that the glut of lambs that came in the last two months didn't floor the price, a huge amount of extra lambs killed and I don't think we're that much under last year.
    We're paid on grade and quality, You know the specs that the market wants, but how could any group deal with a crowd that carries on like the beef factories, they can't seem to commit to specs a month ahead, never mind negotiate anything at the beginning of the year.
    Farmers should get together to form a group, and try to work with the factory, even a commitment to take the groups stock weekly like we have with the lambs would have been a huge help this year


  • #795
    whelan2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 31,038 ✭✭✭✭whelan2


    rangler1 wrote: »
    we're doing a hit at the end of the week , see if you can spot me on the telly,
    better still, come along:D:D:D:D:D:D
    is that the one near me


  • #796
    greysides
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 9,047 Mod ✭✭✭✭greysides


    Posts relating to the formation of a Beef CoOp have been moved into a new thread here, on request.

    The aim of argument, or of discussion, should not be victory, but progress. Joseph Joubert

    The ultimate purpose of debate is not to produce consensus. It's to promote critical thinking.

    Adam Grant



  • #797
    Base price
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 11,753 ✭✭✭✭Base price


    I think the elephant in the room is the EIF levy in relation to funding of the IFA and other organisations. Judging from comments here and the Agriland survey most people consider that there is a conflict of interest. A dog can only be loyal to one master - it is either farmers or the factories.
    An alternative form of income is needed to replace the EIF levy, in that way farmers would regain confidence with the IFA.
    Scrap the EIF levy in its current form and replace it with some sort of pro rata deduction from SFP!!
    Before everyone jumps up and down screaming about the fact that a lot of farmers are already loosing some of their SFP, we have to think outside the box and come up with a workable and fair alternative that is independent of factories/processors.
    If we could get this sorted then I think we would be well on the way to handling the factories. That is my pennies worth.


  • #798
    bogman_bass
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 5,277 ✭✭✭bogman_bass


    There has been a lot of talk about the levy but how do people here propose to get the money off the farmer? An organisation like the Ifa doesnt run on fresh air and farmers don't tend to part with the cash that handy so how do you do it?


  • #799
    onyerbikepat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,921 ✭✭✭onyerbikepat


    I'll get slaughtered for this, but I've no problem with Larry & Co. owning large feed lots. Even if he could carry a few thousand cattle, what is this in comparison to the 30,000 cattle killed here every week. People say he manipulates the market, but can he really. If he kills from his own lots, when beef prices go high, he still has to go out and buy in the marts agian. If he buys in the marts when prices are very low, he raises the prices of stores. So if anything he is helping smooth out any problems with fluctuating prices, both high and low.

    Be careful what you wish for. If he is not allowed finish cattle himself then autumn factory prices could fall even more.

    The same issue arises with the whole 30 month thing. Get rid of it and you run into the same problem with too many cattle looking to get into factories in the same few weeks, usually when weather turns bad. I'm around long enough to remember this hapenning.


  • #800
    Nettleman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 651 ✭✭✭Nettleman


    bogman_bass wrote: »
    There has been a lot of talk about the levy but how do people here propose to get the money off the farmer? An organisation like the Ifa doesnt run on fresh air and farmers don't tend to part with the cash that handy so how do you do it?

    Does anyone remember the revolving penny scheme.....well that was a huge success where farmer dug into their pockets to support their local coop. I actually think the real problem will be trying to ignite the fight in 100,000 dis-interested/ hacked off/ fedup beef farmers, who wont even protest anymore, and have had their spirits and fight broken over the years. Younger farmers are also hungry for something new, different.
    If a coop (their coop) can convince them there is another way to explore, another way to atleast try, without IFA, or EIF, they might give it a shot, and get their neighbour to do the same. I haven't even registered a coop yet, but the response from the thread, i might need to soon.
    It may not be a success, and it may hit many problems, problems will be compounded by the existing Establishment who like the way things are, but that life, employ an executive team, Pick a Board of non-executives to hold them to account. Board and Executives must do an interview in front of farmers to demonstrate their capabilities, after or during a selection process, Publish annual accounts (unlike IFA) renumeration committee, external auditors, etc etc, these things cost money, but the confidence & support of the Irish beef farmer has to be maintained. [mod-pls copy to beef coop thread-tks]


  • #801
    Abfg
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 47 ✭Abfg


    Nettleman wrote: »
    Does anyone remember the revolving penny scheme.....well that was a huge success where farmer dug into their pockets to support their local coop. I actually think the real problem will be trying to ignite the fight in 100,000 dis-interested/ hacked off/ fedup beef farmers, who wont even protest anymore, and have had their spirits and fight broken over the years. Younger farmers are also hungry for something new, different.
    If a coop (their coop) can convince them there is another way to explore, another way to atleast try, without IFA, or EIF, they might give it a shot, and get their neighbour to do the same. I haven't even registered a coop yet, but the response from the thread, i might need to soon.
    It may not be a success, and it may hit many problems, problems will be compounded by the existing Establishment who like the way things are, but that life, employ an executive team, Pick a Board of non-executives to hold them to account. Board and Executives must do an interview in front of farmers to demonstrate their capabilities, after or during a selection process, Publish annual accounts (unlike IFA) renumeration committee, external auditors, etc etc, these things cost money, but the confidence & support of the Irish beef farmer has to be maintained. [mod-pls copy to beef coop thread-tks]

    Totally have to agree with you on this especially about the hacked off beef farmers. They have totally lost the fight and they would'nt back the current regime in a game of tiddly winks!!!!!
    If you could unite the farmers in whatever way the beef crisis would be solved in a couple of weeks but while they are divided and disinterested larry is laughing all the way to the bank!
    Great ideas though fair play to.


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  • #802
    rangler1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,497 ✭✭✭rangler1


    whelan2 wrote: »
    is that the one near me

    yes


  • #803
    Abfg
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 47 ✭Abfg


    onyerbikepat wrote: »
    I'll get slaughtered for this, but I've no problem with Larry & Co. owning large feed lots. Even if he could carry a few thousand cattle, what is this in comparison to the 30,000 cattle killed here every week. People say he manipulates the market, but can he really. If he kills from his own lots, when beef prices go high, he still has to go out and buy in the marts agian. If he buys in the marts when prices are very low, he raises the prices of stores. So if anything he is helping smooth out any problems with fluctuating prices, both high and low.

    Be careful what you wish for. If he is not allowed finish cattle himself then autumn factory prices could fall even more.

    The same issue arises with the whole 30 month thing. Get rid of it and you run into the same problem with too many cattle looking to get into factories in the same few weeks, usually when weather turns bad. I'm around long enough to remember this hapenning.

    No body will slaughter you everyone is entitled to their opinion. I will agree with you on the under 30 months but i'm afraid i can't accept your agrument on Larry!


  • #804
    Farmer Pudsey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,326 ✭✭✭Farmer Pudsey


    rangler1 wrote: »
    Our lamb producer group works very well, unfortunately it follows the market, but we'd be getting the top market price,
    We work with the factory helping with promotions, we have a guy coming from England next month to look at the factory and look at our stock to see can we do things better.
    Really pleased that the glut of lambs that came in the last two months didn't floor the price, a huge amount of extra lambs killed and I don't think we're that much under last year.
    We're paid on grade and quality, You know the specs that the market wants, but how could any group deal with a crowd that carries on like the beef factories, they can't seem to commit to specs a month ahead, never mind negotiate anything at the beginning of the year.
    Farmers should get together to form a group, and try to work with the factory, even a commitment to take the groups stock weekly like we have with the lambs would have been a huge help this year

    The difference between beef and lamb is a lot of lamb is reared and finished by the one producer. In beef there is a myrid of different producers. Spec is much wider ranging and most finishers cannot gaurantee supply until they purchasse cattle which may often be only 3-6 months before finish.

    The other thing as you said is that spec's can change weekly like the way factory's are discounting on cattle colour at present.
    onyerbikepat wrote: »
    I'll get slaughtered for this, but I've no problem with Larry & Co. owning large feed lots. Even if he could carry a few thousand cattle, what is this in comparison to the 30,000 cattle killed here every week. People say he manipulates the market, but can he really. If he kills from his own lots, when beef prices go high, he still has to go out and buy in the marts agian. If he buys in the marts when prices are very low, he raises the prices of stores. So if anything he is helping smooth out any problems with fluctuating prices, both high and low.

    Be careful what you wish for. If he is not allowed finish cattle himself then autumn factory prices could fall even more.

    The same issue arises with the whole 30 month thing. Get rid of it and you run into the same problem with too many cattle looking to get into factories in the same few weeks, usually when weather turns bad. I'm around long enough to remember this hapenning.

    Processor feedlots are a big issue. In reality it takes a lot less cattle than you think to manipulate the market. All you need is 2-3k cattle often for as little as 3-4 week. You need only supply those factory's that are finding it hard to source cattle. At certain times of year our local factory will have truckloads of cattle from there own feedlots to maintain supply.

    The reason this supply keeps prices down is that these factory need not pay higher prices for cattle to travel a distance to make up kill. A lot of store producers think that this forces competition in the marts as factory's access certain cattle, however we see a marked reluctance from finishers to bid for cattle this year. This is many got caught paying high prices for forward stores last fall against factory feedlot agents who used these cattle to collapse beef prices and back up bulls from Christmas on.

    If prices had strenghtened last Christmas and processors had not got control of kill prices might have been stronger all winter.


  • #805
    TUBBY
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 828 ✭✭✭TUBBY


    onyerbikepat wrote: »
    I'll get slaughtered for this, but I've no problem with Larry & Co. owning large feed lots. Even if he could carry a few thousand cattle, what is this in comparison to the 30,000 cattle killed here every week. People say he manipulates the market, but can he really. If he kills from his own lots, when beef prices go high, he still has to go out and buy in the marts agian. If he buys in the marts when prices are very low, he raises the prices of stores. So if anything he is helping smooth out any problems with fluctuating prices, both high and low.

    Be careful what you wish for. If he is not allowed finish cattle himself then autumn factory prices could fall even more.

    The same issue arises with the whole 30 month thing. Get rid of it and you run into the same problem with too many cattle looking to get into factories in the same few weeks, usually when weather turns bad. I'm around long enough to remember this hapenning.

    if we did slaughter you pat, you would prob grade bad, we wouldn't get the qa bonus and we'd be even more pissed off :)


  • #806
    cj maxx
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 17,262 ✭✭✭✭cj maxx


    Pardon my ignorance but read the last few posts , whats the EIF levy and what s its purpose


  • #807
    Abfg
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 47 ✭Abfg


    bogman_bass wrote: »
    There has been a lot of talk about the levy but how do people here propose to get the money off the farmer? An organisation like the Ifa doesnt run on fresh air and farmers don't tend to part with the cash that handy so how do you do it?

    I'm afraid it's too late for the IfA they are a spent force. They have lost the trust of the majority of farmers in the country and will never regain it!
    Farming is on it's knees and all the IFA people posting messages on here is what'll we do without the Levy money.
    If the IFA ran out of money in the morning and disbanded do you think farming would get any worse????? Do you think the majority of farmers in the west of Ireland would loose any sleep over it??????
    It would probably be an advantage in so far as it would be easier to set up a coop/group like what nettleman is talking about.
    To answer your question you would have no problem getting money off the farmers if the organisation was fair to all farmers regardless of size and it was a big advantage to be a member. When I say advantage I dont mean getting cheap insurance from FBD or s11t like that. I mean like taking back control of the meat industry severing all ties with the factories and taking the likes of the Larry's of this world on and beating them at their own game.


  • #808
    Abfg
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 47 ✭Abfg


    Farmer Pudsey wrote: »
    The difference between beef and lamb is a lot of lamb is reared and finished by the one producer. In beef there is a myrid of different producers. Spec is much wider ranging and most finishers cannot gaurantee supply until they purchasse cattle which may often be only 3-6 months before finish.

    The other thing as you said is that spec's can change weekly like the way factory's are discounting on cattle colour at present.



    Processor feedlots are a big issue. In reality it takes a lot less cattle than you think to manipulate the market. All you need is 2-3k cattle often for as little as 3-4 week. You need only supply those factory's that are finding it hard to source cattle. At certain times of year our local factory will have truckloads of cattle from there own feedlots to maintain supply.

    The reason this supply keeps prices down is that these factory need not pay higher prices for cattle to travel a distance to make up kill. A lot of store producers think that this forces competition in the marts as factory's access certain cattle, however we see a marked reluctance from finishers to bid for cattle this year. This is many got caught paying high prices for forward stores last fall against factory feedlot agents who used these cattle to collapse beef prices and back up bulls from Christmas on.

    If prices had strenghtened last Christmas and processors had not got control of kill prices might have been stronger all winter.

    Very well said but to go back to my original point has any farming organisation looked to have this practice stopped???? Larry has them by the b6lls with the levy!!!!!!!


  • #809
    Abfg
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 47 ✭Abfg


    cjmc wrote: »
    Pardon my ignorance but read the last few posts , whats the EIF levy and what s its purpose[/

    It's where the IFA take money off farmers (both members and non members) by diducting it from all cattle sold in marts and factories to fund their organisation. This is done without any permission what so ever and equates to 3 million euro annually. Has to be a criminal act???

    By the way any farmer reading this that wants to recoup this money for the last 12 months can fill out a form that the mart or factory will supply you on request and the IFA are legally obliged to refund you.


  • #810
    rangler1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,497 ✭✭✭rangler1


    Abfg wrote: »
    cjmc wrote: »
    Pardon my ignorance but read the last few posts , whats the EIF levy and what s its purpose[/

    It's where the IFA take money off farmers (both members and non members) by diducting it from all cattle sold in marts and factories to fund their organisation. This is done without any permission what so ever and equates to 3 million euro annually. Has to be a criminal act???

    By the way any farmer reading this that wants to recoup this money for the last 12 months can fill out a form that the mart or factory will supply you on request and the IFA are legally obliged to refund you.

    If your farmer example got €44 levy deducted of 11 cattle, that meant that he got €44,000 for the 11 cattle as the levy is €1 for every thousand, just an example of more lies from you


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  • #811
    rangler1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,497 ✭✭✭rangler1


    cjmc wrote: »
    Pardon my ignorance but read the last few posts , whats the EIF levy and what s its purpose

    Membership fee of IFA is based on acreage, but 50ha sheep farmer selling €50000 worth of produce shouldn't have to pay the same as a 50ha dairy farm selling €200000 worth of produce, so it was decided to introduce a levy of €1 for every thousand euro of produce you sell (think it's more in milk), it's divided between ICMSA, MACRA, and IFA,
    Its collected at the meat factories, milk processors, grain merchants,
    Levy costs me around €60 on 500 ewes
    Just to put it in perspective, between myself and the wife, we pay €219 membership, we get €140 back on our insurance, so you see when I say it'd cost more to be a member of a hockey club, I wouldn't be far off,
    Any member killed in a farm accident ( which is topical at the moment) gets 20000, there's money paid out for loss of limbs as well....some hospital stays after farm accidents....loads of benefits


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