Beef in Crisis

Username John · 10-09-2014 10:53AM

Nettleman wrote: »

Agreed, theres an interesting thing called Independence, and IFA should be independent of processors and retailers and marts, independent of all vested interest (including own personal (SFP) interests, personal ambitions to run a feedlot), independent of all interests except the interest of Irish farmers. If independence is threatened or perceived to be threatened, then people loose confidence in it...I thought Eddie said he was gona look into the EIF as He already acknowledged it was problematic after he was elected...Has he looked into it now, and decided to keep stum????

I don't disagree with you re the EIF, there does seem to be a perception there that it makes the IFA somehow dishonest - I don't agree with that, but from this thread, it does seem to be out there...

But how far do you take independence?
Should everyone in the IFA not be farmers at all - so they are truly independent?

independent of all vested interest (including own personal (SFP) interests

This is very relative... I only have a small SFP - so personally I might have gained from scrapping the old / current system and starting again. But if I was in the IFA, and I proposed this - a certain number of people would say I was only doing this to suit myself, or my own situation?

I am not a member of the IFA - I was a member, and I left a while ago.

But do people have this idea that the IFA are some kinda mafia, faceless organisation?
Some lads on here are very against the IFA, which is fine - but do they put up the same fight when they meet their neighbour who is in the IFA when they meet them in the co-op?

For me - the IFA was the (full-time dairy) farmer down the road, who worked hard, and in the evenings went to meetings and the like. I don't believe he was out to get me, or keep me down / or somehow reduce my SFP...

EDIT : Too slow typing, Freedom made the same point before me, and a lot better too I think...

Nettleman · 10-09-2014 11:09AM

Username John wrote: »

But do people have this idea that the IFA are some kinda mafia, faceless organisation?
Some lads on here are very against the IFA, which is fine - but do they put up the same fight when they meet their neighbour who is in the IFA when they meet them in the co-op?

Oh yes, I have a neighbour who is a very active member and he is well able to argue his corner for IFA with me but the picture a few months back of a former president wearing a processor logo jacket and operating factory feedlots was a tough one for him. Personally, and only speaking for myself, the day I read that was the day I cancelled my membership.

Charliebull · 10-09-2014 11:33AM

freedominacup wrote: »

Whatever about independence from processors, retailers etc if you believe exec members motives are questionable then farmers have only themselves to blame. I don't go to many co exec meetings but I went to one last week as it was being held locally and we had to fly the flag for our local branch. It's more or less the same faces for the past twenty years ,apart from the ones who have passed on, with the same pov and same agendas. Farmers elect/press gang officers, delegates etc no one else. The ifa is not some disconnected entity if you didn't vote for the people making decisions and policy some of your neighbours did so next time you're talking to a neighbour who is an ifa member tell him what sort of a bo11ox you think he is and ask him how he dares show his face in public considering all the harm he's doing to you and all other farmers. The stupid cnut going around paying subs and voting on things. I dunno what the world is coming to when fools like that can have a say. I mean jesus, right?

:Dah FFS but that made me laugh, your wasted farming freedom, did you ever consider stand up,

Abfg · 10-09-2014 12:04PM

rangler1 wrote: »

Well I left him in no doubt that to do anything with it would be admitting that this pub talk was true, The insinuations are a slur on every voluntary officer that works for IFA.......but then I'm only one, he can do as he likes.
It would be interesting for a county to send a resolution to that effect, I might be the only one, but then I mightn't

Absolutely Brilliant!!!!! Don't do anything because if it works we might be asked why the f##k did it take you so long to do it. Better keep the head in the sand ignore it, take the money and f**k them beef farmers what do they know!!!!!!

Nettleman · 10-09-2014 12:08PM

Rangler, don't mean to heap the pressure on you, but another question I wondered about, do IFA pay pension to ex-presidents after their term ends? Its just that since IFA don't publish their accounts, its hard to find anything out, apart from your good self...

Nettleman · 10-09-2014 12:47PM

rangler1 wrote: »

I don't think I'm in that position to answer that, but money is invested wisely, I wish mine was as well invested, I think but for other incomes, IFA wouldn't be breaking even, there's an internal audit committee as well as real auditors.
It'll cost the same to run the organisation when there's 40000 members( no of farmers reducing all the time) as it does now at 90000, so it was decided to put money aside annually since Tom parlon was national treasurer ,

We believe you about how wisely they invest but why can we not let us crisis hit farmers judge for ourselves.

rangler1 · 10-09-2014 12:51PM

Nettleman wrote: »

Rangler, don't mean to heap the pressure on you, but another question I wondered about, do IFA pay pension to ex-presidents after their term ends? Its just that since IFA don't publish their accounts, its hard to find anything out, apart from your good self...

There's no pension, but they seem to get invited on to different boards, but I'm sure that's expenses only, John bryan and Padraig walshe were on the board of directors of FBD, don't know long that lasts

rangler1 · 10-09-2014 01:07PM

Nettleman wrote: »

We believe you about how wisely they invest but why can we not let us crisis hit farmers judge for ourselves.

Don't know why they're not published, there's a good sum there but most came from the rise in FBD SHARES I'd say, not from the members, As I say it's very well invested, IFA TELECOM is doing well too

Nettleman · 10-09-2014 01:12PM

rangler1 wrote: »

Don't know why they're not published, there's a good sum there but most came from the rise in FBD SHARES I'd say, not from the members, As I say it's very well invested, IFA TELECOM is doing well too

If there's a good sum, say a "warchest", could it be used to fund farmers during this crises? we could start a thread seeking suggestions, if you could give us a figure to work with, is it 50m, 150m, 350m

rangler1 · 10-09-2014 01:31PM

Nettleman wrote: »

If there's a good sum, say a "warchest", could it be used to fund farmers during this crises? we could start a thread seeking suggestions, if you could give us a figure to work with, is it 50m, 150m, 350m

It's only been going ten years........look if it was divided between all the members, it wouldn't refund one years membership.
Where would we get it it, it'd cost you more to join a hockey club than IFA.
We don't have a lot to do with funding apart from 2 hrs once a year but I do remember last year there was a surplus of about €3/ member.

Abfg · 10-09-2014 03:56PM

Username John wrote: »

I don't disagree with you re the EIF, there does seem to be a perception there that it makes the IFA somehow dishonest - I don't agree with that, but from this thread, it does seem to be out there...

But how far do you take independence?
Should everyone in the IFA not be farmers at all - so they are truly independent?

This is very relative... I only have a small SFP - so personally I might have gained from scrapping the old / current system and starting again. But if I was in the IFA, and I proposed this - a certain number of people would say I was only doing this to suit myself, or my own situation?

I am not a member of the IFA - I was a member, and I left a while ago.

But do people have this idea that the IFA are some kinda mafia, faceless organisation?
Some lads on here are very against the IFA, which is fine - but do they put up the same fight when they meet their neighbour who is in the IFA when they meet them in the co-op?

For me - the IFA was the (full-time dairy) farmer down the road, who worked hard, and in the evenings went to meetings and the like. I don't believe he was out to get me, or keep me down / or somehow reduce my SFP...

EDIT : Too slow typing, Freedom made the same point before me, and a lot better too I think...

I see no problem having a group of professionals that are not farmers paid to represent farmers agaisnt the likes of the Larrys of this world that are trying to exploit us!
What would be wrong with this situation???
We need a change the current situation is not working!!!!!

Username John · 10-09-2014 04:05PM

Abfg wrote: »

I see no problem having a group of professionals that are not farmers paid to represent farmers agaisnt the likes of the Larrys of this world that are trying to exploit us!
What would be wrong with this situation???
We need a change the current situation is not working!!!!!

Ah - but who appoints the professionals?
Surely not lads with SFP/ without SFP / from the East / from the West / insert_any_other_random_reason_here?
Sure they'd all only be pushing their own agenda...

I wonder would you just be adding another layer (that may cost a lot) between the farmer and the factory?

Nettleman · 10-09-2014 04:25PM

Username John wrote: »

Ah - but who appoints the professionals?
Surely not lads with SFP/ without SFP / from the East / from the West / insert_any_other_random_reason_here?
Sure they'd all only be pushing their own agenda...

I wonder would you just be adding another layer (that may cost a lot) between the farmer and the factory?

Surely it wouldn't cost as much as the 160m, which is what the last 12 months have cost beef farmers in this county-a straight profit transfer-out of one pocket and into another one. No matter how crazy, something else needs to be tried, the old ways & the old personnel have played their part and helped a lot but have also played (or through their complacency) contributed to bringing us to the situation we are in today. Never change a winning team, but if your getting hammered by 40 points at half time, a few new tactics and/or personell is whats needed, or your going to get pasted off the field.

Abfg · 10-09-2014 04:30PM

Username John wrote: »

Ah - but who appoints the professionals?
Surely not lads with SFP/ without SFP / from the East / from the West / insert_any_other_random_reason_here?
Sure they'd all only be pushing their own agenda...

I wonder would you just be adding another layer (that may cost a lot) between the farmer and the factory?

That's exactly the point in your last sentence, at the moment the farmer has nobody between them and the factory. The IFA are seen to be in bed with them and are not trusted!
Select people that the farmer can trust that have a proven track record in negotiation/arbatration, then put it to a vote and the people with the majority are selected.
The group can set targets to be achieved and they can be replaced if they are not up to standard.
The problem we have in Ireland at the moment is the majority of farmers have lost all trust in the IFA!! e.g. Hill Farmers fair play to them!!!!
Small farmers and big farmers are split down the middle after the SFP fiasco.
We need a new approach!

rangler1 · 10-09-2014 06:13PM

Abfg wrote: »

That's exactly the point in your last sentence, at the moment the farmer has nobody between them and the factory. The IFA are seen to be in bed with them and are not trusted!
Select people that the farmer can trust that have a proven track record in negotiation/arbatration, then put it to a vote and the people with the majority are selected.
The group can set targets to be achieved and they can be replaced if they are not up to standard.
The problem we have in Ireland at the moment is the majority of farmers have lost all trust in the IFA!! e.g. Hill Farmers fair play to them!!!!
Small farmers and big farmers are split down the middle after the SFP fiasco.
We need a new approach!

The people that are there are voted in, yet you vomit lies about them, how will this be any different
IFAs most ardent critc in my county exec told me yesterday I was doing a good job,
think that trumps any s..t you're throwing at me.
As long as I'm looking after the county, I suppose I'm doing alright

onyerbikepat · 10-09-2014 06:17PM

rangler1 wrote: »

The people that are there are voted in, yet you vomit lies about them, how will this be any different

You're like a dog with a bone....People on here are entitled to express their opinion without being badgered by you or anyone else.:(

rangler1 · 10-09-2014 06:42PM

onyerbikepat wrote: »

You're like a dog with a bone....People on here are entitled to express their opinion without being badgered by you or anyone else.:(

Read his posts then tell me who's been badgered, he's got two warnings and still persists in abuse

sandydan · 10-09-2014 07:30PM

Abfg wrote: »

I see no problem having a group of professionals that are not farmers paid to represent farmers agaisnt the likes of the Larrys of this world that are trying to exploit us!
What would be wrong with this situation???

tell me one thing Rangler what is wrong with that suggestion, all companies do it on contract basis if they haven't their own, ie hire pr and hr to negotiate contracts on their behalf and to fight unions in trade disputes, the IFA could and would set the terms and targets required for farmer incomes and let them negotiate and report to IFA for final say.
its standard practice in trade negotiations and disputes, have been involved in a few and there are no repercussions either personal or financially for tough stance taken during dispute either.i know of one union dispute where company offered to show books to staff,they wanted to renege and offered some rise when told an independent financial analyst appointed or nominated by Labour Court would be asked to do the business.result - at union meeting, it was disclosed, without revealing company secrets - was not favourable to company, when pressed by some who thought anyone with basic accounting could do job were told it was not so simple.
without impinging on anyone's negotiating skills, honesty etc, those professionals with company law,accountancy law as well as negotiating skills are required to deal with those company representatives with years of similar skills,whose wages reflect their success at negotating trade deals, its not like going to a fair. this group could be hired on joint basis by IFA,ICMSA,CSA if agreeable for such negotiating process.
just deal with this as a stand alone suggestion please

Kovu · 10-09-2014 07:38PM

rangler1 wrote: »

Read his posts then tell me who's been badgered, he's got two warnings and still persists in abuse

No, he hasn't. The last one was a general warning for everyone & judging by your last post, you may want to tone it down a bit yourself.

rangler1 · 10-09-2014 08:37PM

sandydan wrote: »

tell me one thing Rangler what is wrong with that suggestion, all companies do it on contract basis if they haven't their own, ie hire pr and hr to negotiate contracts on their behalf and to fight unions in trade disputes, the IFA could and would set the terms and targets required for farmer incomes and let them negotiate and report to IFA for final say.
its standard practice in trade negotiations and disputes, have been involved in a few and there are no repercussions either personal or financially for tough stance taken during dispute either.i know of one union dispute where company offered to show books to staff,they wanted to renege and offered some rise when told an independent financial analyst appointed or nominated by Labour Court would be asked to do the business.result - at union meeting, it was disclosed, without revealing company secrets - was not favourable to company, when pressed by some who thought anyone with basic accounting could do job were told it was not so simple.
without impinging on anyone's negotiating skills, honesty etc, those professionals with company law,accountancy law as well as negotiating skills are required to deal with those company representatives with years of similar skills,whose wages reflect their success at negotating trade deals, its not like going to a fair. this group could be hired on joint basis by IFA,ICMSA,CSA if agreeable for such negotiating process.
just deal with this as a stand alone suggestion please

I didn't comment on that suggestion, what happens when the opposition won't negotiate,
While farmers stand back from protests there is no compulsion on the opposition to come to the table....not much point in talking to ourselves,
I've been involved in a few campaigns, and the scenario is that you have to rise hell first until they look to talk.....very unprofessional I know.
Works with most things, but not with cattle prices, while factories get enough cattle they won't want to talk to anyone, except maybe customers complaints of trolleys being locked up
Is that not the reason that unions call strikes

Connemara Farmer · 10-09-2014 08:41PM

What happened to that grassroots beef group that was announced there a while back?

rangler1 · 10-09-2014 08:45PM

Connemara Farmer wrote: »

What happened to that grassroots beef group that was announced there a while back?

They didn't attack the factories,
they didn't attack the government
Much more original they were
They decided to withdraw the EIF levy:o

Connemara Farmer · 10-09-2014 08:49PM

rangler1 wrote: »

They didn't attack the factories,
they didn't attack the government
Much more original they were
They decided to withdraw the EIF levy:o

Hadn't heard anything about them in a while.

onyerbikepat · 10-09-2014 08:49PM

Get Irish Beef back on into UK supermarkets - problem solved.

IrelandMalePricesYTD1.gif?guid=20140910205026

rangler1 · 10-09-2014 08:52PM

Connemara Farmer wrote: »

Hadn't heard anything about them in a while.

I'd say we've pressed any button that can be pressed,
I'd say you're a firm believer in rising hell to get your point across:D

Connemara Farmer · 10-09-2014 08:55PM

rangler1 wrote: »

I'd say we've pressed any button that can be pressed,
I'd say you're a firm believer in rising hell to get your point across:D

Heh, I did take note of the choice of words and chuckled alright

rangler1 · 10-09-2014 08:57PM

onyerbikepat wrote: »

Get Irish Beef back on into UK supermarkets - problem solved.

Apparently 50% is still going to England, Heard an english farmer expecting £3.50/kg for r grades next week in England

Abfg · 10-09-2014 09:50PM

sandydan wrote: »

tell me one thing Rangler what is wrong with that suggestion, all companies do it on contract basis if they haven't their own, ie hire pr and hr to negotiate contracts on their behalf and to fight unions in trade disputes, the IFA could and would set the terms and targets required for farmer incomes and let them negotiate and report to IFA for final say.
its standard practice in trade negotiations and disputes, have been involved in a few and there are no repercussions either personal or financially for tough stance taken during dispute either.i know of one union dispute where company offered to show books to staff,they wanted to renege and offered some rise when told an independent financial analyst appointed or nominated by Labour Court would be asked to do the business.result - at union meeting, it was disclosed, without revealing company secrets - was not favourable to company, when pressed by some who thought anyone with basic accounting could do job were told it was not so simple.
without impinging on anyone's negotiating skills, honesty etc, those professionals with company law,accountancy law as well as negotiating skills are required to deal with those company representatives with years of similar skills,whose wages reflect their success at negotating trade deals, its not like going to a fair. this group could be hired on joint basis by IFA,ICMSA,CSA if agreeable for such negotiating process.
just deal with this as a stand alone suggestion please

Could n't have put it better myself! But then again that would take vision, foresight and above all a pair of balls which as you can see from ranglers ramblings they dont have. Clueless people lead by personal gain!!!!!!

sandydan · 10-09-2014 10:01PM

rangler1 wrote: »

I didn't comment on that suggestion, what happens when the opposition won't negotiate,
While farmers stand back from protests there is no compulsion on the opposition to come to the table....not much point in talking to ourselves,
I've been involved in a few campaigns, and the scenario is that you have to rise hell first until they look to talk.....very unprofessional I know.
Works with most things, but not with cattle prices, while factories get enough cattle they won't want to talk to anyone, except maybe customers complaints of trolleys being locked up
Is that not the reason that unions call strikes

maybe but blockading factories last time led competitiion authority taking case that could have cost IFA big bucks if they had not disbanded, some how i believe if similar action occurred this time an embargo on same would prevent that loophole being used so to overcome that im wondering if IFA should form a separate Farmers Union set up along Trade Union rules to do their price deals with that specific purpose to get over embargo like one inflicted last time.
i know i read somewhere that a slaughter overcapacity was costing farmers . a suggestion to get rid of excess slaughter capacity was suggested by financing the closure of same ,was this right and was it scuttled by Competition Authority threatening to go to court on basis that it should happen by market failure of factories as otherwise its would be regarded as illegal and anti-competitive in same way as regional airports giving cut price rates to Ryanair ie favouring producer

tim04750 · 10-09-2014 10:20PM

It did happen a number of years ago and the competition authority did take action I'll see if I can find and post a link

http://www.tca.ie/images/uploaded/documents/2007-04-19%20Reference_ECJ.pdf

Beef in Crisis

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