Is it self defeatist to say that some men are meant to be alone??‏

macplato · 05-09-2014 11:45AM

Mike747 wrote: »

Are you female?

I am.

DipStick McSwindler · 05-09-2014 11:46AM

This post has been deleted.

macplato · 05-09-2014 11:55AM

Mike747 wrote: »

Being nice and timid tend to go hand in hand. I'm not saying you have to be a terrible person to do well with women. You should be a decent guy. But I know so many good guys who struggle with women. Conversely I know some pretty unpleasant men who never seem to be alone. So ideally you want to be somewhere in the middle.

All I can talk about are my experiences, same as everyone else. When I adopted a slightly assholish personality I became far more successful with women.

As for the American feminist, you dodged one hell of a bullet!

Sometimes, but not usually, not in my experience. And honestly, being a bit timid can be very attractive too, to some women. I get approached a lot by those super confident, fearless men you've described, but I have zero interest in them, because I know, that on a deeper level, they will not be able to connect with me. I tend to go for slightly shy, sensitive men - this is what I am attracted to, and I know plenty of women who are like me.

It irks me that some men keep repeating: women like this, don't like that, you have to be this or that for a woman to find you attractive. Seriously, whoever you are, there are people of the opposite sex that will find you attractive, as long as you value yourself.

Mike747 · 05-09-2014 11:56AM

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

That's a generalisation, but I wouldn't say that it's without merit. I would only call myself a "nice guy" as I've had the "How are you still single?" so many times that it's almost become a personal cliché at this point. I'm trying to be more outgoing but I do have trouble "sealing the deal" either by trying to arrange dates, asking for numbers, etc... I know lovely chaps who have no problem doing these things unless it's someone they've connected with which then adds a short delay but they always action.
Arseholes tend to do better as they've no fear about how they'll be perceived so they'll try and sometimes succeed in being funny and then progress from there. I see where you're coming from but a lot of the time, "nice guys" can do well but because they're shy or afraid of coming across as creeps then they hold back which is a shame for both parties involved.

Yes its a generalization but as with stereotypes there's an element of truth in it. You're right the nice guy will hold back, he'll be afraid to get sexual so he'll slip into the friend zone. My take on it is, you should be perceived as a decent guy but never the nice guy.

Anyway I'm rambling. As I said I can only talk about my own experiences. I became pretty good with women but I had to change almost every facet of my personality to do so! One of the reasons I find this subject fascinating.

Mike747 · 05-09-2014 11:59AM

macplato wrote: »

I am.

For a ltr personality matters and and yeah here the nice guy can do better than the asshole. Problem is he'll struggle to get there in the first place.

macplato · 05-09-2014 12:02PM

Mike747 wrote: »

For a ltr personality matters and and yeah here the nice guy can do better than the asshole. Problem is he'll struggle to get there in the first place.

I agree with the first sentence. But why do you think he'll struggle to get there, though? In my experience that's not the case at all.

Mike747 · 05-09-2014 12:13PM

macplato wrote: »

I agree with the first sentence. But why do you think he'll struggle to get there, though? In my experience that's not the case at all.

Too shy. Too worried about being perceived as sleazy or creepy. Won't read the signals so he'll miss his chance etc.

As you say we're talking in generalizations here. But I think its reasonable to say that the 'asshole' 'player' type (which usually means he's confident, aggressive and fairly selfish) will do better with women.

Colser · 05-09-2014 12:27PM

Mike747 wrote: »

Yes its a generalization but as with stereotypes there's an element of truth in it. You're right the nice guy will hold back, he'll be afraid to get sexual so he'll slip into the friend zone. My take on it is, you should be perceived as a decent guy but never the nice guy.

Anyway I'm rambling. As I said I can only talk about my own experiences. I became pretty good with women but I had to change almost every facet of my personality to do so! One of the reasons I find this subject fascinating.

Serious question...Is that actually possible to do and sustain for the rest of your life? I genuinely wouldnt have thought so...surely the mask will drop at some stage...

Potatoeman · 05-09-2014 12:33PM

macplato wrote: »

Some level of fear is necessary, to make a genuine connection with an emotionally healthy woman. Only an emotionally numb man will feel no fear, and that same quality will make him unavailable for meaningful connection (therefore, he will only attract women who like him, are unable to, or feel unworthy of connection). Same with men who have a low opinion of women - they may be able to attract women, but only those who, for one reason or another, yearn to be disrespected aka women with very low self-esteem.

Being nervous is fine but if a guy is not chatty hes doomed. How is fear a good thing? You must do the approaching if you are into shy guys.

macplato · 05-09-2014 12:37PM

Mike747 wrote: »

Too shy. Too worried about being perceived as sleazy or creepy. Won't read the signals so he'll miss his chance etc.

As you say we're talking in generalizations here. But I think its reasonable to say that the 'asshole' 'player' type (which usually means he's confident, aggressive and fairly selfish) will do better with women.

Yeah, you are talking about the extremes here, and looking from this angle, I'd say you are most likely correct. It's interesting, we really do see reality through the lenses of our own personal experiences. Almost all men I know, who I'd describe as "nice" are confident, adventurous and happy - they don't struggle when comes to women. I have never come across a man, who wouldn't approach a woman for fear of being sleazy or creepy - I guess, someone who would have that kind of a fear would have to have massive self-esteem issues.

Again, I'd somewhat agree with the second paragraph of your post, if we're talking about one-nighters. Although, hmm, there are plenty of women out there who have no experience of being treated with kindness and respect, and so they do, indeed, go for men who will mistreat them. The thing is - you seem to be only focusing on the extremes - it's like you believe that a man can be either so shy that he will struggle with women, or he'll be super confident, to the point of being inconsiderate. Whichever way you flip it, you end up getting something negative.

But look around, there are plenty of happy, socially successful people out there - some of them are physically attractive, some aren't, some are wealthy or financially comfortable, others aren't. They are neither very shy, nor very confident. They value and want closeness, intimacy, connection, perhaps family - and that's what they get - because they have enough self-worth to reach for it, without questioning their right to having it.

Piliger · 05-09-2014 12:41PM

Mike747 wrote: »

Let me give you an example. I used to know a lad who was the classic nice guy. Outgoing, fun, always putting others first. Women loved him, as a friend. I never once saw him get anywhere with a woman.

So yes being too nice is a problem. The nice guy won't make a move on a girl for fear of being creepy (what the hell does 'creepy' even mean anyway). Or he won't approach a girl because he doesn't want to be another 'sleazy guy' trying to chat her up.

Two things I've noticed in men who do well with women: a complete lack of fear of rejection and a low opinion of women.

A lack of fear equals someone who doesn't give a crap. Show me a man who doesn't care and I'll show you a man who is a complete dick or a sociopath.

The truth is nice guys get almost all the women.

Potatoeman · 05-09-2014 12:46PM

Piliger wrote: »

A lack of fear equals someone who doesn't give a crap. Show me a man who doesn't care and I'll show you a man who is a complete dick or a sociopath.

The truth is nice guys get almost all the women.

If you are going to approach someone you need to be able to handle rejection. Which is probably a bigger factor. I have one friend that would happily approach anyone at anytime and chat. He just deals with rejection very well.

Mike747 · 05-09-2014 12:52PM

Colser wrote: »

Serious question...Is that actually possible to do and sustain for the rest of your life? I genuinely wouldnt have thought so...surely the mask will drop at some stage...

Sure it is. You can retrain yourself. A big part of it is developing new communication habits. Also improving your body language, eye contact, posture etc.

If you know a successful person (in any area of life) you should pay close attention to how they carry themselves and see if you can emulate.

macplato · 05-09-2014 12:54PM

Potatoeman wrote: »

Being nervous is fine but if a guy is not chatty hes doomed. How is fear a good thing? You must do the approaching if you are into shy guys.

Yeah, two aspects to your question. Some sensitive men, when they really want something (or someone), they get a bit nervous and freeze. The men I'm attracted to, have the ability to unfreeze quick enough, and go for it anyway. So, even though I have no problem approaching people, and indeed do it often enough, I wouldn't say I do it a lot. I know I'm going to commit a seeming oxymoron now - I'm into a bit shy but confident men, and not surprisingly I'm just like that myself.

Now, about being chatty

No, it's not a requirement for me. I admit, I tend to carry the conversation with newly met people, but I enjoy doing it. All I need from a man is for him to have the capacity to keep up with me intellectually, have an active, open mind, willingness to share his own thoughts and inner experiences, and be able to gently tell me to shut up when I talk too much

diveout · 05-09-2014 01:04PM

Potatoeman wrote: »

If you are going to approach someone you need to be able to handle rejection. Which is probably a bigger factor. I have one friend that would happily approach anyone at anytime and chat. He just deals with rejection very well.

Diversification of risks helps.

Potatoeman · 05-09-2014 01:06PM

macplato wrote: »

Yeah, two aspects to your question. Some sensitive men, when they really want something (or someone), they get a bit nervous and freeze. The men I'm attracted to, have the ability to unfreeze quick enough, and go for it anyway. So, even though I have no problem approaching people, and indeed do it often enough, I wouldn't say I do it a lot. I know I'm going to commit a seeming oxymoron now - I'm into a bit shy but confident men, and not surprisingly I'm just like that myself.

Now, about being chatty No, it's not a requirement for me. I admit, I tend to carry the conversation with newly met people, but I enjoy doing it. All I need from a man is for him to have the capacity to keep up with me intellectually, have an active, open mind, willingness to share his own thoughts and inner experiences, and be able to gently tell me to shut up when I talk too much

There is a problem being too shy. If you dont engage with someone how are you suppose to get to know them? I was out last week and ran into a group of ladies and got chatting. It was one of their birthdays and I tried to chat to her, she was very quite. Its very hard to chat to someone that smiles and gives one word answers so I gravitated back to chatting to her friends. Her friends tried to get her to join in more but she just seemed too quiet.

macplato · 05-09-2014 01:25PM

Potatoeman wrote: »

There is a problem being too shy. If you dont engage with someone how are you suppose to get to know them? I was out last week and ran into a group of ladies and got chatting. It was one of their birthdays and I tried to chat to her, she was very quite. Its very hard to chat to someone that smiles and gives one word answers so I gravitated back to chatting to her friends. Her friends tried to get her to join in more but she just seemed too quiet.

Yeah, being too shy is a problem, of course. No objections here.

Were we at the same birthday party, I wonder? o.O (The birthday girl was indeed very shy, and everyone tried to encourage her to talk to someone, who was interested in her. Unlikely, but you never know!)

Piliger · 05-09-2014 01:29PM

macplato wrote: »

Yeah, being too shy is a problem, of course. No objections here.

Were we at the same birthday party, I wonder? o.O (The birthday girl was indeed very shy, and everyone tried to encourage her to talk to someone, who was interested in her. Unlikely, but you never know!)

The big difference is between being shy .... and being unable to interact. LOTS of people are shy but have the ability to push through that in order to interact. That is a very attractive thing for many men and women. But not being able to get to the point of interaction is a killer

macplato · 05-09-2014 01:39PM

Piliger wrote: »

The big difference is between being shy .... and being unable to interact. LOTS of people are shy but have the ability to push through that in order to interact. That is a very attractive thing for many men and women. But not being able to get to the point of interaction is a killer

I agree. Some people are naturally sensitive and a bit shy. Overcoming this natural shyness requires courage and strong self-esteem, and these qualities are incredibly attractive. I'm with you on that.

I've met so many incredible people, who have awesome (truly awe - some) inner worlds, but for whatever reason, they are locked in themselves, and unwilling to share all they have to offer with others. It's heartbreaking. I had to give up on the last man I was seeing for that very reason - he had a beautiful inner world, but was unable to share it.

ongarboy · 05-09-2014 02:09PM

Mike747 wrote: »

Anyway I'm rambling. As I said I can only talk about my own experiences. I became pretty good with women but I had to change almost every facet of my personality to do so! One of the reasons I find this subject fascinating.

I actually find this quite telling. Are you happy with your new personality? Sure, we can all improve or modify traits, habits or behaviours but if I thought I had to change who I ultimately was as a person just to please/attract a partner, I'm not sure I could . It would be putting on an act that would eventually crumble. My partner of 10 years has had to accept me for who I am, warts and all and I think that humility and honesty is paramount to the success to our relationship so far. It has been and is by no means perfect and doesn't stop me trying ot improve myself constantly but that is part and parcel of life and learning.

Just on other points you mentioned earlier. Nice guys always putting others first. You see, I don't equate that with being nice, I equate that with being a doormat. Doormats are turnoffs who never attract women apart from domineering control freaks. Equating one with the other as so many do on these threads as the reason they don't get women is so misguided in my opinion. Macplato perfectly demonstrated why nice guys (the proper definition of nice) do succeed and not the "nice" guys that many single guys with chips on their shoulders interpret as the definition.

Finally, (apologies, I'm not deliberately trying to single out your posts but some of your statements really jump out for me!

) you alluded to OP's post earlier whereby his parents endorsed him as a nice person yet you said that was typical of parents feeding kids deluded crap (I'm possibly paraphrasing here!). When you think of all the adults out there who owe a lot of their current screwed up issues and lives to growing up with dysfunctional, cruel and loveless or non existent parents, I would not underestimate the power of having a parent instill positivity in their child. Yes, it may not have been enough initially for OP but I bet it's standing to him now having his parents onside as he successfully attempts to turn his life around.

Potatoeman · 05-09-2014 02:12PM

macplato wrote: »

Yeah, being too shy is a problem, of course. No objections here.

Were we at the same birthday party, I wonder? o.O (The birthday girl was indeed very shy, and everyone tried to encourage her to talk to someone, who was interested in her. Unlikely, but you never know!)

Does your friend have dark curly hair?

Wibbs · 05-09-2014 02:16PM

Colser wrote: »

Serious question...Is that actually possible to do and sustain for the rest of your life? I genuinely wouldnt have thought so...surely the mask will drop at some stage...

People can and do change throughout life. In the vast majority of cases it's unconscious, an adaptation to life experiences, in some they decide to make that change themselves. Put it another way C, you're a different person now compared to when you were 15. Does your mask slip and revert to being 15 again. If you know what I mean?

Piliger wrote: »

A lack of fear equals someone who doesn't give a crap. Show me a man who doesn't care and I'll show you a man who is a complete dick or a sociopath.

Maybe not. Having little or no fear over rejection from a complete stranger strikes me as perfectly logical. Being very fearful in the same scenario on the other hand seems very illogical to me. Being rejected by someone you know is a very different thing of course. I've been blown out by a woman I've just met(both nicely and not so nicely) and TBH it's a case of meh shrug my shoulders and move on. It makes no sense to beat myself up over it. Not giving a crap, when it's appropriate not to is a good way to be and a good thing to learn IMHO.

macplato · 05-09-2014 02:38PM

Potatoeman wrote: »

Does your friend have dark curly hair?

Dark brown, with a tint of red, and definitely straight - looks like an altogether different birthday gal

Mike747 · 05-09-2014 02:43PM

ongarboy wrote: »

I actually find this quite telling. Are you happy with your new personality? Sure, we can all improve or modify traits, habits or behaviours but if I thought I had to change who I ultimately was as a person just to please/attract a partner, I'm not sure I could . It would be putting on an act that would eventually crumble. My partner of 10 years has had to accept me for who I am, warts and all and I think that humility and honesty is paramount to the success to our relationship so far. It has been and is by no means perfect and doesn't stop me trying ot improve myself constantly but that is part and parcel of life and learning.

Just on other points you mentioned earlier. Nice guys always putting others first. You see, I don't equate that with being nice, I equate that with being a doormat. Doormats are turnoffs who never attract women apart from domineering control freaks. Equating one with the other as so many do on these threads as the reason they don't get women is so misguided in my opinion. Macplato perfectly demonstrated why nice guys (the proper definition of nice) do succeed and not the "nice" guys that many single guys with chips on their shoulders interpret as the definition.

Finally, (apologies, I'm not deliberately trying to single out your posts but some of your statements really jump out for me! ) you alluded to OP's post earlier whereby his parents endorsed him as a nice person yet you said that was typical of parents feeding kids deluded crap (I'm possibly paraphrasing here!). When you think of all the adults out there who owe a lot of their current screwed up issues and lives to growing up with dysfunctional, cruel and loveless or non existent parents, I would not underestimate the power of having a parent instill positivity in their child. Yes, it may not have been enough initially for OP but I bet it's standing to him now having his parents onside as he successfully attempts to turn his life around.

Far happier and more confident. I changed myself and I don't regret it.

'Nice guys' are almost always doormats yes. I think the main issue with nice guys is they're afraid of their sexuality. The don't want to make a move because they don't want to be 'just another sleazy guy'. Then a confidant guy comes along and gets the girl they had their eye on. They can't comprehend why she didn't chose him especially after 'all the times I've been there for her.' They never realize that they were friendzoned a long time ago.

Of course its good that parents love and encourage their children. But because they love them they'll never give them the honest answers they need. A son will get 'don't worry you're a great guy, any girl would be lucky to have you' instead 'why don't you buy some decent clothes and hit the gym you sack of ****!'

Piliger · 05-09-2014 02:55PM

Wibbs wrote: »

Maybe not. Having little or no fear over rejection from a complete stranger strikes me as perfectly logical.

Well as I said show me a man who doesn't care and I'll show you a man who is a complete dick or a socio-path. Why would a man go up and approach a women he doesn't give a crap about in the first place ? If he didn't give a crap then he would have no reason to even approach her.

Being very fearful in the same scenario on the other hand seems very illogical to me.

Humans are rarely logical.

Not giving a crap, when it's appropriate not to is a good way to be and a good thing to learn IMHO.

It's never appropriate to not give a crap about a woman he thinks is worth knowing beforehand. And that goes for women as well as men. There is nothing cool about that kind of odious personality imho.

Piliger · 05-09-2014 02:56PM

Mike747 wrote: »

Far happier and more confident. I changed myself and I don't regret it.

'Nice guys' are almost always doormats yes. I think the main issue with nice guys is they're afraid of their sexuality. The don't want to make a move because they don't want to be 'just another sleazy guy'. Then a confidant guy comes along and gets the girl they had their eye on. They can't comprehend why she didn't chose him especially after 'all the times I've been there for her.' They never realize that they were friendzoned a long time ago.

Of course its good that parents love and encourage their children. But because they love them they'll never give them the honest answers they need. A son will get 'don't worry you're a great guy, any girl would be lucky to have you' instead 'why don't you buy some decent clothes and hit the gym you sack of ****!'

You may have achieved what you refer to as 'success'. But I find your opinions bizarre and your understanding of people deeply misguided.

Dial Hard · 05-09-2014 02:59PM

Mike747 wrote: »

'Nice guys' are almost always doormats yes. I think the main issue with nice guys is they're afraid of their sexuality. The don't want to make a move because they don't want to be 'just another sleazy guy'. Then a confidant guy comes along and gets the girl they had their eye on. They can't comprehend why she didn't chose him especially after 'all the times I've been there for her.' They never realize that they were friendzoned a long time ago.

You're confusing genuine niceness with Nice Guy Syndrome.

strobe · 05-09-2014 03:06PM

nice
adjective\ˈnīs\
: giving pleasure or joy : good and enjoyable
: attractive or of good quality
: kind, polite, and friendly

What dictionaries are some people using?

I'm nice as ****ing pie and I've been beating them off with a big ****ty stick since the age of 14.

I really think this whole "women don't like nice guys" thing is just a comforting lie certain people choose to tell themselves.

I mean, if the reason you aren't getting a ride is "because women don't like nice guys", then the issue is them, not you. You aren't doing anything 'wrong' or lacking in any way, your just 'too perfect' and they are the flawed ones.

Bollox. Grow some balls and be honest with yourself.

Colser · 05-09-2014 03:08PM

Wibbs wrote: »

People can and do change throughout life. In the vast majority of cases it's unconscious, an adaptation to life experiences, in some they decide to make that change themselves. Put it another way C, you're a different person now compared to when you were 15. Does your mask slip and revert to being 15 again. If you know what I mean?

I totally agree Wibbs but I believe this happens naturally rather than someone changing every facet of their personality deliberately...I really dont think thats possible ...I believe people can put on an act for a while but I think their real personality will show through in the long run.

macplato · 05-09-2014 03:11PM

Mike747 wrote: »

Far happier and more confident. I changed myself and I don't regret it.

'Nice guys' are almost always doormats yes. I think the main issue with nice guys is they're afraid of their sexuality. The don't want to make a move because they don't want to be 'just another sleazy guy'. Then a confidant guy comes along and gets the girl they had their eye on. They can't comprehend why she didn't chose him especially after 'all the times I've been there for her.' They never realize that they were friendzoned a long time ago.

Of course its good that parents love and encourage their children. But because they love them they'll never give them the honest answers they need. A son will get 'don't worry you're a great guy, any girl would be lucky to have you' instead 'why don't you buy some decent clothes and hit the gym you sack of ****!'

So tell me Mike, do you believe that the whole population of men is made of "nice guys" who are also doormats, and confident men who don't give a shít about women? About fifty-fifty? Do you really not know men who are comfortable with who they are, and therefore kind and respectful to women? In my world, most men are just like that. There are some doormats, and some as*holes, but most men are really lovely.

Is it self defeatist to say that some men are meant to be alone??‏

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