Mike747 wrote: » Are you female?
Mike747 wrote: » Being nice and timid tend to go hand in hand. I'm not saying you have to be a terrible person to do well with women. You should be a decent guy. But I know so many good guys who struggle with women. Conversely I know some pretty unpleasant men who never seem to be alone. So ideally you want to be somewhere in the middle. All I can talk about are my experiences, same as everyone else. When I adopted a slightly assholish personality I became far more successful with women. As for the American feminist, you dodged one hell of a bullet!
ancapailldorcha wrote: » That's a generalisation, but I wouldn't say that it's without merit. I would only call myself a "nice guy" as I've had the "How are you still single?" so many times that it's almost become a personal cliché at this point. I'm trying to be more outgoing but I do have trouble "sealing the deal" either by trying to arrange dates, asking for numbers, etc... I know lovely chaps who have no problem doing these things unless it's someone they've connected with which then adds a short delay but they always action. Arseholes tend to do better as they've no fear about how they'll be perceived so they'll try and sometimes succeed in being funny and then progress from there. I see where you're coming from but a lot of the time, "nice guys" can do well but because they're shy or afraid of coming across as creeps then they hold back which is a shame for both parties involved.
macplato wrote: » I am.
Mike747 wrote: » For a ltr personality matters and and yeah here the nice guy can do better than the asshole. Problem is he'll struggle to get there in the first place.
macplato wrote: » I agree with the first sentence. But why do you think he'll struggle to get there, though? In my experience that's not the case at all.
Mike747 wrote: » Yes its a generalization but as with stereotypes there's an element of truth in it. You're right the nice guy will hold back, he'll be afraid to get sexual so he'll slip into the friend zone. My take on it is, you should be perceived as a decent guy but never the nice guy. Anyway I'm rambling. As I said I can only talk about my own experiences. I became pretty good with women but I had to change almost every facet of my personality to do so! One of the reasons I find this subject fascinating.
macplato wrote: » Some level of fear is necessary, to make a genuine connection with an emotionally healthy woman. Only an emotionally numb man will feel no fear, and that same quality will make him unavailable for meaningful connection (therefore, he will only attract women who like him, are unable to, or feel unworthy of connection). Same with men who have a low opinion of women - they may be able to attract women, but only those who, for one reason or another, yearn to be disrespected aka women with very low self-esteem.
Mike747 wrote: » Too shy. Too worried about being perceived as sleazy or creepy. Won't read the signals so he'll miss his chance etc. As you say we're talking in generalizations here. But I think its reasonable to say that the 'asshole' 'player' type (which usually means he's confident, aggressive and fairly selfish) will do better with women.
Mike747 wrote: » Let me give you an example. I used to know a lad who was the classic nice guy. Outgoing, fun, always putting others first. Women loved him, as a friend. I never once saw him get anywhere with a woman. So yes being too nice is a problem. The nice guy won't make a move on a girl for fear of being creepy (what the hell does 'creepy' even mean anyway). Or he won't approach a girl because he doesn't want to be another 'sleazy guy' trying to chat her up. Two things I've noticed in men who do well with women: a complete lack of fear of rejection and a low opinion of women.
Piliger wrote: » A lack of fear equals someone who doesn't give a crap. Show me a man who doesn't care and I'll show you a man who is a complete dick or a sociopath. The truth is nice guys get almost all the women.
Colser wrote: » Serious question...Is that actually possible to do and sustain for the rest of your life? I genuinely wouldnt have thought so...surely the mask will drop at some stage...
Potatoeman wrote: » Being nervous is fine but if a guy is not chatty hes doomed. How is fear a good thing? You must do the approaching if you are into shy guys.
Potatoeman wrote: » If you are going to approach someone you need to be able to handle rejection. Which is probably a bigger factor. I have one friend that would happily approach anyone at anytime and chat. He just deals with rejection very well.
macplato wrote: » Yeah, two aspects to your question. Some sensitive men, when they really want something (or someone), they get a bit nervous and freeze. The men I'm attracted to, have the ability to unfreeze quick enough, and go for it anyway. So, even though I have no problem approaching people, and indeed do it often enough, I wouldn't say I do it a lot. I know I'm going to commit a seeming oxymoron now - I'm into a bit shy but confident men, and not surprisingly I'm just like that myself. Now, about being chatty No, it's not a requirement for me. I admit, I tend to carry the conversation with newly met people, but I enjoy doing it. All I need from a man is for him to have the capacity to keep up with me intellectually, have an active, open mind, willingness to share his own thoughts and inner experiences, and be able to gently tell me to shut up when I talk too much
Potatoeman wrote: » There is a problem being too shy. If you dont engage with someone how are you suppose to get to know them? I was out last week and ran into a group of ladies and got chatting. It was one of their birthdays and I tried to chat to her, she was very quite. Its very hard to chat to someone that smiles and gives one word answers so I gravitated back to chatting to her friends. Her friends tried to get her to join in more but she just seemed too quiet.
macplato wrote: » Yeah, being too shy is a problem, of course. No objections here. Were we at the same birthday party, I wonder? o.O (The birthday girl was indeed very shy, and everyone tried to encourage her to talk to someone, who was interested in her. Unlikely, but you never know!)
Piliger wrote: » The big difference is between being shy .... and being unable to interact. LOTS of people are shy but have the ability to push through that in order to interact. That is a very attractive thing for many men and women. But not being able to get to the point of interaction is a killer
Mike747 wrote: » Anyway I'm rambling. As I said I can only talk about my own experiences. I became pretty good with women but I had to change almost every facet of my personality to do so! One of the reasons I find this subject fascinating.
Piliger wrote: » A lack of fear equals someone who doesn't give a crap. Show me a man who doesn't care and I'll show you a man who is a complete dick or a sociopath.
Potatoeman wrote: » Does your friend have dark curly hair?
ongarboy wrote: » I actually find this quite telling. Are you happy with your new personality? Sure, we can all improve or modify traits, habits or behaviours but if I thought I had to change who I ultimately was as a person just to please/attract a partner, I'm not sure I could . It would be putting on an act that would eventually crumble. My partner of 10 years has had to accept me for who I am, warts and all and I think that humility and honesty is paramount to the success to our relationship so far. It has been and is by no means perfect and doesn't stop me trying ot improve myself constantly but that is part and parcel of life and learning. Just on other points you mentioned earlier. Nice guys always putting others first. You see, I don't equate that with being nice, I equate that with being a doormat. Doormats are turnoffs who never attract women apart from domineering control freaks. Equating one with the other as so many do on these threads as the reason they don't get women is so misguided in my opinion. Macplato perfectly demonstrated why nice guys (the proper definition of nice) do succeed and not the "nice" guys that many single guys with chips on their shoulders interpret as the definition. Finally, (apologies, I'm not deliberately trying to single out your posts but some of your statements really jump out for me! ) you alluded to OP's post earlier whereby his parents endorsed him as a nice person yet you said that was typical of parents feeding kids deluded crap (I'm possibly paraphrasing here!). When you think of all the adults out there who owe a lot of their current screwed up issues and lives to growing up with dysfunctional, cruel and loveless or non existent parents, I would not underestimate the power of having a parent instill positivity in their child. Yes, it may not have been enough initially for OP but I bet it's standing to him now having his parents onside as he successfully attempts to turn his life around.
Wibbs wrote: » Maybe not. Having little or no fear over rejection from a complete stranger strikes me as perfectly logical.
Being very fearful in the same scenario on the other hand seems very illogical to me.
Not giving a crap, when it's appropriate not to is a good way to be and a good thing to learn IMHO.
Mike747 wrote: » Far happier and more confident. I changed myself and I don't regret it. 'Nice guys' are almost always doormats yes. I think the main issue with nice guys is they're afraid of their sexuality. The don't want to make a move because they don't want to be 'just another sleazy guy'. Then a confidant guy comes along and gets the girl they had their eye on. They can't comprehend why she didn't chose him especially after 'all the times I've been there for her.' They never realize that they were friendzoned a long time ago. Of course its good that parents love and encourage their children. But because they love them they'll never give them the honest answers they need. A son will get 'don't worry you're a great guy, any girl would be lucky to have you' instead 'why don't you buy some decent clothes and hit the gym you sack of ****!'
Mike747 wrote: » 'Nice guys' are almost always doormats yes. I think the main issue with nice guys is they're afraid of their sexuality. The don't want to make a move because they don't want to be 'just another sleazy guy'. Then a confidant guy comes along and gets the girl they had their eye on. They can't comprehend why she didn't chose him especially after 'all the times I've been there for her.' They never realize that they were friendzoned a long time ago.
Wibbs wrote: » People can and do change throughout life. In the vast majority of cases it's unconscious, an adaptation to life experiences, in some they decide to make that change themselves. Put it another way C, you're a different person now compared to when you were 15. Does your mask slip and revert to being 15 again. If you know what I mean? I totally agree Wibbs but I believe this happens naturally rather than someone changing every facet of their personality deliberately...I really dont think thats possible ...I believe people can put on an act for a while but I think their real personality will show through in the long run.
Mike747 wrote: » Far happier and more confident. I changed myself and I don't regret it.'Nice guys' are almost always doormats yes. I think the main issue with nice guys is they're afraid of their sexuality. The don't want to make a move because they don't want to be 'just another sleazy guy'. Then a confidant guy comes along and gets the girl they had their eye on. They can't comprehend why she didn't chose him especially after 'all the times I've been there for her.' They never realize that they were friendzoned a long time ago. Of course its good that parents love and encourage their children. But because they love them they'll never give them the honest answers they need. A son will get 'don't worry you're a great guy, any girl would be lucky to have you' instead 'why don't you buy some decent clothes and hit the gym you sack of ****!'
