Deer Licences refused due to declining numbers

staghunter · 04-09-2014 02:55PM

A ranger can't just tell you,you can't shoot deer on that land because he feels its being over shot, he can refuse you a deer licence on it because that's within the law.if he doesn't Own the shooting rights or the state doesnt own the shooting rights he can't stop any one from shooting deer with permission from landowner or whoever owns shootings rights.he cant just make it up as he goes along.if it isn't signed into legislation that the area in question is a deer reserve then he doesn't have the power to stop people shooting deer on in

Cass · 04-09-2014 03:04PM

You're missing the point. If he refuses you the deer license because you nominate that land, and then you revoke that permission so as to get the license then if you shoot deer on that land you are in breach of the conditions you were granted the deer license for.

now if you have some legisaltion that i don't know about that says this is illegal, and the NPWS cannot do this then by all means show me. However simply saying, "he needs legislation" or "a Minister must sign it" is not good enough. Show me.

And before anyone asks for me to show them where it says he can do it, i don't have that, and frankly don't care. If removing that permission gets me my deer license then i'll do it, and did.

staghunter · 04-09-2014 03:41PM

Cass wrote: »

You're missing the point. If he refuses you the deer license because you nominate that land, and then you revoke that permission so as to get the license then if you shoot deer on that land you are in breach of the conditions you were granted the deer license for.

now if you have some legisaltion that i don't know about that says this is illegal, and the NPWS cannot do this then by all means show me. However simply saying, "he needs legislation" or "a Minister must sign it" is not good enough. Show me.

And before anyone asks for me to show them where it says he can do it, i don't have that, and frankly don't care. If removing that permission gets me my deer license then i'll do it, and did.

So what your saying is a ranger can use he own discretion to make an area a deer reserve I didn't realise they had so much power.is this condition written onto your license.I may be wrong but I got the impression from your earlier post that no hunter would be alowed shoot deer on these lands sorry if I picked it up wrong.I wouldn't be able to find that in writing for you wouldn't no where to look.

Vegeta · 04-09-2014 03:50PM

I think this is questions is what this boils down to:

Is your license to hunt deer restricted solely to the lands you put down on your application?

Cass · 04-09-2014 04:03PM

staghunter wrote: »

So what your saying is a ranger can use he own discretion to make an area a deer reserve

That's what you are saying. Not once have i mentioned reserve. I said he can refuse the license if you want to shoot on lands the NPWS deem unsuitable.

I didn't realise they had so much power.is this condition written onto your license.

As i did not apply using this permission there is no need to write a condition on my license. Much the same as any condition on your gun lciense is not written on it, but on the grant letter.

I may be wrong but I got the impression from your earlier post that no hunter would be alowed shoot deer on these lands sorry if I picked it up wrong.I wouldn't be able to find that in writing for you wouldn't no where to look.

Seems to be the case. No license will be granted for these lands.

hiddenmongoose · 04-09-2014 04:09PM

staghunter wrote: »

A ranger can't just tell you,you can't shoot deer on that land because he feels its being over shot, he can refuse you a deer licence on it because that's within the law.if he doesn't Own the shooting rights or the state doesnt own the shooting rights he can't stop any one from shooting deer with permission from landowner or whoever owns shootings rights.he cant just make it up as he goes along.if it isn't signed into legislation that the area in question is a deer reserve then he doesn't have the power to stop people shooting deer on in

This is what im getting at sure they can not grant a licence based on this permission but if you already have the licence then what can they do ?

Vegeta wrote: »

I think this is questions is what this boils down to:

Is your license to hunt deer restricted solely to the lands you put down on your application?

Yes this is the crux of it , If so and tonight a land owner gives me permission to shoot a new ground must I first contact npws to update them with my new permission before I shoot it ?I dont think so?,Iv never been told or read this anywhere?, and therefore it goes back to the example I previously stated about me having a current deer licence then being asked by the farmer to shoot his land (unbeknownst to me its this ''blacklisted area'') how can I be convicted as I havent broken any LAW? how am I even to know this area is blacklisted in the first place ? I have recieved no calls or email or letter from NPWS telling me of areas that are not to be shot this year but were perfect last year.What If I get permission in one of these areas and I dont even know its blacklisted?

Vegeta · 04-09-2014 04:15PM

Vegeta wrote: »

I think this is questions is what this boils down to:

I'm going to grammar Nazi my own post. That was terrible.

hiddenmongoose · 04-09-2014 04:24PM

Vegeta wrote: »

I'm going to grammar Nazi my own post. That was terrible.

lol!!

cookimonster · 04-09-2014 04:29PM

I get the idea, I think, that Cass is talking about- the ranger determines that a location used as a permisson in the application for a deer hunting permit is deemed unsuitable for whatever reason i.e size, the presence or lack of deer etc, and therefore won't recommend the application.

But after that I am a bit lost......

I have a permit to hunt deer based on one sole permisson but I hunt in 3 counties and have submitted returns for those counties. I have permisson to hunt those lands from land owners. AFAIK I'm doing nothing wrong. So surely if I was given permisson to hunt deer on land that others could not get a permit with I am still doing nothing wrong.

With the exception of wildlife sanctuaries etc I can't find any reference that stops a hunter legally (FAC, Permit, Land Permisson) taking deer in season. The only exception to this are the sections both in and out of season as they are pertaining to a particular location.

Someone shed some light, but as far as I am concerned my permit allows me to legally hunt deer on any land once I have permisson regardless of who's been refused.....

Edit: Took me so long to compose and type the last posts came with similar topic.

hiddenmongoose · 04-09-2014 04:35PM

cookimonster wrote: »

I get the idea, I think, that Cass is talking about- the ranger determines that a location used as a permisson in the application for a deer hunting permit is deemed unsuitable for whatever reason i.e size, the presence or lack of deer etc, and therefore won't recommend the application.

But after that I am a bit lost......

I have a permit to hunt deer based on one sole permisson but I hunt in 3 counties and have submitted returns for those counties. I have permisson to hunt those lands from land owners. AFAIK I'm doing nothing wrong. So surely if I was given permisson to hunt deer on land that others could not get a permit with I am still doing nothing wrong.

With the exception of wildlife sanctuaries etc I can't find any reference that stops a hunter legally (FAC, Permit, Land Permisson) taking deer in season. The only exception to this are the sections both in and out of season as they are pertain to a particular location.

Someone shed some light, but as far as I am concerned my permit allows me to legally hunt deer on any land once I have permisson regardless of who's been refused.....

I am in the same boat here exactly,I understand as you said the first part but I too am lost after that, I too get my licence on about 3 permissions I send each year ,however I also have several other permissions ranging from 100s of acres to individual fields of a couple of acres, and this in several counties ,also what about when a friend(licenced deer stalker )brings you to his permission for a shot ?

cookimonster · 04-09-2014 04:49PM

hiddenmongoose wrote: »

I am in the same boat here exactly,I understand as you said the first part but I too am lost after that, I too get my licence on about 3 permissions I send each year ,however I also have several other permissions ranging from 100s of acres to individual fields of a couple of acres, and this in several counties ,also what about when a friend(licenced deer stalker )brings you to his permission for a shot ?

Exactly, I think there are many of us here who are in the same situation. I don't list all my permissons for the application and only use one, keeping the others in reserve. Like you I have permissons that are no more than a 'field' and wouldn't pass muster with NPWS but in fact yield good returns.
You make a good point how many of us shoot on friends permissons?

No doubt more fuel for the blazing discussion.

Zxthinger · 04-09-2014 05:43PM

The licence is not restricted to the signed permissions.

Lotharmike · 04-09-2014 05:45PM

I thought the same tbh I have permission in Clare as per my licence but shoot also in Tipp which I did not declare on the NPWS application form.I thought you had to list the rifle/rifles & bullet weights only.I personally have three rifles listed on my application.I also did a section 42 last year on the one in Tipp.

Grizzly 45 · 04-09-2014 05:58PM

Cass wrote: »

I'

Grizzly45 - It was a joke with Zxthinger so calm your jets. I only mentioned you once, and your last post only shows i was right

.
You mentionbed me TWICE and I didnt find it funny.Actually I found it immature and expected better of you.

As Sparks pointed out your idea won't work for legal reasons

.
Actually ,if you perused the DPA you would find that they are authorised to use this information as they see fit for revelant information exchange.How would they otherwise be able to send you your deer liscense?

You criticise the NPWS rangers simply because your venting. ..............

SNIP of very immature Cass rant with lots of personal attack and antagonism for whatever reason.
Not going to lower myself to replying to this outburst.

As one last point in general. I used the term blacklisted. It is not something that was said to me or used by the NPWS or any ranger.

What ever.

Perazzi · 04-09-2014 06:33PM

Can anyone tell me how a ranger knows how many deer are on the land in question I hope its not from returns on deer licence

Zxthinger · 04-09-2014 08:40PM

Cass wrote:

I'm not even going to get into Coilte. Paying a state body to shoot deer to protect their forestry. I'll give up deer stalking before i ever resort to that.
.

Yet you would pay a licence fee!
How is it any different! You are going to be supporting an industry that does nothing for your game! Doesn't feed them or fence them in.

However I comend you stance on the coilte payment rip off

Big Buck · 04-09-2014 09:40PM

As Cass said earlier, some people don't really have a choice but to pay coillte for hunting. Whether you would or wouldn't is completely personal choice. I do, but I understand the argument against.

Cass · 04-09-2014 10:02PM

Holy Jaysus.

I'll say it one last time and if ya cannot get it then i don't know. The ranger refused my deer license because of one piece of land/permission. To get the license i had to drop that permission. I have others so it's not a bother. Had it been my only permission maybe i would have been a bit more pissed off, but that's academic at this point. He said/mentioned/hinted at/outright said that he would be reviewing the land and consider (as i put it) black listing the land due to the number of people with permissions on it (the land owners fault for being too nice). I edited my application and got the license.

I understand, and support, the Rangers position of doing something to curtail the over shooting and poaching on the land. The legalities are up to the NPWs/Governement. If they can or think they can do it i don't see the issue if it helps. If it doesn't then feck it, they tried.

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

You mentionbed me TWICE and I didnt find it funny.Actually I found it immature and expected better of you.

Ah, dry your eyes FFS.

Actually ,if you perused the DPA you would find that they are authorised to use this information as they see fit for revelant information exchange.How would they otherwise be able to send you your deer liscense?

Because i send them my address, and my permission to contact me, but they don't give it to you or anyone else.

SNIP of very immature Cass rant with lots of personal attack and antagonism for whatever reason.
Not going to lower myself to replying to this outburst.

Again dry your eyes. You're well able to dish it out, and when i rebut your stance with the same venom/vigor you get insulted!!!!! As for lowering yourself, please. You#re well able to when it suits.

What ever.

There it is. :rolleyes:

Zxthinger wrote: »

Yet you would pay a licence fee!

How is it any different!

Yes.

Coilte lease = €500 up to €4,000 (amountt a sdyndicate bought some years ago).
Deer license fee (possible) = €10 - €20.

Bit of difference.

You are going to be supporting an industry that does nothing for your game! Doesn't feed them or fence them in.

I am supporting the NPWS that tries to use whatever means available to them to reduce the poaching and commercial shooting off deer.

However I comend you stance on the coilte payment rip off

Say what??? :eek:

hiddenmongoose · 04-09-2014 10:45PM

Cass wrote: »

Holy Jaysus.

I'll say it one last time and if ya cannot get it then i don't know. The ranger refused my deer license because of one piece of land/permission. To get the license i had to drop that permission. I have others so it's not a bother. Had it been my only permission maybe i would have been a bit more pissed off, but that's academic at this point. He said/mentioned/hinted at/outright said that he would be reviewing the land and consider (as i put it) black listing the land due to the number of people with permissions on it (the land owners fault for being too nice). I edited my application and got the license.

you may say it again to me cause im still not getting it!Your saying above no one will get a kicence issued using that lands as there permissions,that part I get andd fair play to NPWS for doing that if there is too many stalkers but then your also saying this below

Cass wrote: »

Meaning if a ranger sees ANYONE on the land they are poaching. Easier to catch and convict.

So that effectively means nobody,even if they have a deer licence can shoot that land for deer, therefore the ranger has made it a deer sanctuary .But how the f%^ do I know its a deer sanctuary ?What if I get invited to shoot that land ,As IV asked allready if im stopped on that land by a ranger with a garda what law am I going to be prosecuted under?I have a firearms licence,I have a deer licence,I have landowners permission ,I was not to know NPWss have blacklisted it .I dont even know where this land is you are on about cass ,It could be right next door to one of my permissions for all I know

Cass · 04-09-2014 10:57PM

So that effectively means nobody,even if they have a deer licence can shoot that land for deer, therefore the ranger has made it a deer sanctuary.

I don't knwo about the sanctuary bit, but in effect that is what i took from it.

But how the f%^ do I know its a deer sanctuary ?

I can only speak of my case, which should apply to everyone. If you have nominated the land and it's not going to be allowed you'll be informed. If you haven't nominated the land, but intend to shoot it then he'll either stick up signs or patrol that area more often. Again only guess work. I've all but written of that land in the last couple of years because of the problems on it so it's no loss.

What if I get invited to shoot that land ,As IV asked allready if im stopped on that land by a ranger with a garda what law am I going to be prosecuted under?

Lad, i don't know. I said that above. I really don't i also said i don't know it he said it in passing or he said it from a "i have the legal authority to enforce this". I just don't know.

I have a firearms licence,I have a deer licence,I have landowners permission ,I was not to know NPWss have blacklisted it .I dont even know where this land is you are on about cass ,It could be right next door to one of my permissions for all I know

The thing is it's right next door to two of my other permissions yet they are fine. However the two other land owners have allowed me and three others, ONLY, onto their land. So the fact that my application went through with them on it proves that there is not a huge amount of people are on it as the land owners told me, and as such the land at least on paper is not overshot. This will not account for poachers/trespassers.

Look, i can only tell you what happened to me. I can only tell you what was told to me, and can only infer from that what their intention is and guess as to the legality of it. The NPWS have made simple errors in the past like saying a .223 is deer legal, but they hurriedly changed that.

The NPWS is not just a deer license vending machine. They have other duties and the deer licenses are a result of their conservation work/duties. I am only trying to make the argument for their actions based on what i've seen on this particular piece of land. It does not mean they will apply it cross the board, nor does it mean they can even do it on this land. I simply don't know. However i intend to visit the permission over the season and see if the land owner has been spoken to, and what if any measures have been taken on the lands. Then i'll report back here and inform everyone.

staghunter · 04-09-2014 11:04PM

Rangers do sweet fup all to stop poaching or even curtail it most rangers are more concerned about the deer eating some rare plant species.as for knowing a deer population in an area they haven't a balls notion.a ranger contacted me at the end of the season last year, a farmer had contacted him about a section 42 and he wanted to nominate me as the stalker the ranger was adamant it was fallow deer and insisted there wasn't any red for miles I had some job convincing it was reds and that there's a big population in that area and this guy lives less than ten miles from this area that's some wildlife ranger.also last year came on a stag shot out on open bog most likely lapmed at nite as it's very close to road contacted ranger to come and look at evidence fair play he came out had a look and he was nice enough to offer us the stag for the freezer the bloody thing was there for two days what does that say about rangers.we asked wot he was going to do with carcass he said leave it there was nothing he could do about,yet if I'm not mistaken were supposed to bring gralloch with us when we kill deer.rangers couldn't give a sh1t about deer in my experience.they spend most of the day in an office

hiddenmongoose · 05-09-2014 07:03AM

Cheers Cass that clears it up for me .Will you post here if later in the season you see signs up or the farmer is contacted or you see rangers patroling that area.Curious to see what happens there.

dodderangler · 05-09-2014 09:24AM

Jaysus this thread spiralled.
I'm only back from bit of hunting now. Thought I'd come across a duck or two but no joy but I did however see plenty of deer about while I was walking.
Not hearing any stags call though. Is there a time they'd usually be calling like in the morning or late in evenings be the time to hear them or has the rut even started yet?

hiddenmongoose · 05-09-2014 09:56AM

dodderangler wrote: »

Jaysus this thread spiralled.
I'm only back from bit of hunting now. Thought I'd come across a duck or two but no joy but I did however see plenty of deer about while I was walking.
Not hearing any stags call though. Is there a time they'd usually be calling like in the morning or late in evenings be the time to hear them or has the rut even started yet?

Mid october is the time for it lad

useurowname · 05-09-2014 10:44AM

dodderangler wrote: »

Thought I'd come across a duck or two but no joy

I haven't been out myself yet but I gather ducks are scarce enough this season, anyone get a decent bag around the midlands?

ps, off topic I know, just don't feel it's worth starting a new thread for.

dodderangler · 05-09-2014 11:41AM

useurowname wrote: »

I haven't been out myself yet but I gather ducks are scarce enough this season, anyone get a decent bag around the midlands?

ps, off topic I know, just don't feel it's worth starting a new thread for.

I hunt around hills and mountainside and during the summer there was loads of ducks on the hills in small patches of water but it's like the fcukers know it's duck season and nowhere to be seen.
Don't know where they came from either.

Kinzig · 05-09-2014 12:28PM

dodderangler wrote: »

I hunt around hills and mountainside and during the summer there was loads of ducks on the hills in small patches of water but it's like the fcukers know it's duck season and nowhere to be seen.
Don't know where they came from either.

Thats because they went to the hill to breed..breedings over now, nuttin to do with seasons:rolleyes:

dodderangler · 05-09-2014 12:57PM

Kinzig wrote: »

Thats because they went to the hill to breed..breedings over now, nuttin to do with seasons:rolleyes:

Relax mate. 'Twas a joke about them knowing season is over.

Kinzig · 05-09-2014 01:06PM

dodderangler wrote: »

Relax mate. 'Twas a joke about them knowing season is over.

No it wasnt, you hadnt a clue:pac:

dodderangler · 05-09-2014 01:44PM

Kinzig wrote: »

No it wasnt, you hadnt a clue:pac:

Oh Jesus on a bicycle
Alri fair nuff

Shooting Forum - Firearms licencing information

Deer Licences refused due to declining numbers

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Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County

Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County

Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County

Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County