Deer Licences refused due to declining numbers

Grizzly 45

Seems like an easy cop out for the NPWS.
Black list areas and not bother dealing with the root cause,poaching and easy money in mass harvesting.
Only people that get affected are ligit sports shooters ,as usual,and the poachers and illegal game harvesters go on their merry ways ..Aas usual.

useurowname

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Seems like an easy cop out for the NPWS.
Black list areas and not bother dealing with the root cause,poaching and easy money in mass harvesting.
Only people that get affected are ligit sports shooters ,as usual,and the poachers and illegal game harvesters go on their merry ways ..Aas usual.

Dead right, always the same legit sportsmen pay the price. Biggest threat to hunting sports imo is poachers and those generally who don't adhere to the rules of the sports, they are not only depleting game numbers but are going about their illegal enterprises in ways that are reckless and endanger the safety of the public.

Cass

Not that cut and dry.

As it is, anyone on the land can be considered a legit shooter. Now if anyone is on the land and a ranger sees them he can question them as no one will have permission to shoot deer on the land regardless of what permission the land owner gives. IOW no licenses issued for that land.

We all know the problem poaching is but bitching and moaning when something is tried serves no purpose. I mean would you rather they continued to issue licenses on the lands and ignore the problem altogether. Plus what budget have the NPWS to work with? I'm not saying it's perfect, but given the fact they work on a shoestring budget they are limited in what they can do, and the frequency of when they can do it.

650gs

Can they stop you shooting wild deer on your own land or stop you giving permission to somebody to shoot on your land ??????

Cass

Yes.

No matter how you have the land (your own/permissions) you need a license from the NPWS to shoot deer. The land owner, orr your own land, can still give you permission, but you cannot shoot deer on the land.

Like myself. I have the deer license on the other permissions. If i'm caught shooting deer on the land that is black listed then i've violated the terms of my license and i'm as guilty as if i were poaching.

Big Buck

The only way the NPWS can increase their budget is to charge a fee for each liscence given.
There is something close to 4500 or 5000 liscences given each year afaik, I don't think they should be free.
I'll probably be slated for this but I think it's about time each and every one of US who enjoy hunting deer start investing in the future of our sport.

hiddenmongoose

Cass wrote: »

Yes.

No matter how you have the land (your own/permissions) you need a license from the NPWS to shoot deer. The land owner, orr your own land, can still give you permission, but you cannot shoot deer on the land.

Like myself. I have the deer license on the other permissions. If i'm caught shooting deer on the land that is black listed then i've violated the terms of my license and i'm as guilty as if i were poaching.

How can Npws do that,If I have my deer licence got and am asked by farmer blogs to come hunt his land as he wants a few deer shot but npws have black listed it Im not allowed? ,its not a law passed that I cant shoot his land its just that department saying I cant.To ban shooting on a ground it has to be a state sanctuary or passed as law like the banning of reds in kerry ,surely there has to be more to it than just the npws saying were going to blacklist it,surely it needs a ministers signature?.only legit hunters will be affected by this so it will have no to little impact anyways.guys with lamps dont care about this stuff

villa1979

If there is 5,000 deer licences issued lets say each licence is 50 euro that would make 250.000 in revenue for the NPW that's not a bad budget to work with to catch poachers I would be happy to pay for a deer permit if the money went to good use

Sparks

hiddenmongoose wrote: »

How can Npws do that,

By reporting you to the AGS for breaking the conditions of your firearms licence and taking the firearm off you as well as prosecuting you for shooting deer without a licence.

If I have my deer licence got and am asked by farmer blogs to come hunt his land

Isn't your deer licence issued for a specific area?

Sparks

villa1979 wrote: »

If there is 5,000 deer licences issued lets say each licence is 50 euro that would make 250.000 in revenue for the NPW that's not a bad budget to work with to catch poachers I would be happy to pay for a deer permit if the money went to good use

Pretty damn sure the NWPS can't just up and do that without legislative changes that aren't within their power to make.

Otherwise, why not charge 500 or 5000 euro for the licence?

natdog

Be very careful what you wish for 50 today can become 500 very fast and the money will not be put to good use.
look at salmon fishing in Ireland big license fee and have things improved I don't think so.
But the one thing they both have in common is the money being paid by game dealers, hotels etc. which makes poaching a very good earner.
Ban the sale of wild Deer to game dealers and a very large part of the problem will be solved and it will cost genuine stalkers nothing.

hiddenmongoose

Sparks wrote: »

By reporting you to the AGS for breaking the conditions of your firearms licence and taking the firearm off you as well as prosecuting you for shooting deer without a licence.

But can they just black list an area legally is what im getting at.Just like they refuse to issue a deer licence unless you have 100 acres,Thats not in any law and i bet if you brought it to court they would have to issue you a licence on a smaller permission,say you have 60 acres heavy with deer.Iv got some permissions of 20 acres that have more deer than some of my other permissions that are hundreds of acres .
Iv no argument the npws has a hard time tackle poachers as they are under funded and understaffed what I am getting at is can they just make this stuff up without it being law (just like the magical 100 acre issue)

Sparks

hiddenmongoose wrote: »

But can they just black list an area legally is what im getting at.

Unless you can find something in the law compelling them to do otherwise, yes.

i bet if you brought it to court

That's exactly what you'd be doing (betting) as the courts are not what most people think they are.

Mind you, I'm not sure why you'd do this anyway - sounds more to me like they're trying to tackle the problem but haven't been given what they need (and they don't have the legal power to go get what they need). Maybe if people didn't think the NWPS had ministerial powers this wouldn't seem so odd...

can they just make this stuff up without it being law (just like the magical 100 acre issue)

Yes. It's called policy and unless it violates statue law and is challenged in a court successfully, they're perfectly able to do that.

hiddenmongoose

Sparks wrote: »

Unless you can find something in the law compelling them to do otherwise, yes.


Mind you, I'm not sure why you'd do this anyway - sounds more to me like they're trying to tackle the problem but haven't been given what they need (and they don't have the legal power to go get what they need). Maybe if people didn't think the NWPS had ministerial powers this wouldn't seem so odd...

Yes. It's called policy and unless it violates statue law and is challenged in a court successfully, they're perfectly able to do that.

I think its a bad move and will only affect law abiding stalkers .Whats stopping them making it policy to have 200 acres or 1000 acres?

Sparks

hiddenmongoose wrote: »

I think its a bad move and will only affect law abiding stalkers .Whats stopping them making it policy to have 200 acres or 1000 acres?

My first thought was "lack of malice" because they're not exactly opposed to deer hunting, are they? Just poaching. Which they're required to try and stop but which they're not given the tools to use to stop it. End result, policies like this which usually fall under the heading of "bad idea but the best that was possible".

hiddenmongoose

Sparks wrote: »

My first thought was "lack of malice" because they're not exactly opposed to deer hunting, are they? Just poaching. Which they're required to try and stop but which they're not given the tools to use to stop it. End result, policies like this which usually fall under the heading of "bad idea but the best that was possible".

More than likely as anyone Iv spoken to in Npws in regards to deer licences was allways very helpfull.Shame though that this is what it comes to ,allways the law abiding that suffer

wexfordman2

Sparks wrote: »

By reporting you to the AGS for breaking the conditions of your firearms licence and taking the firearm off you as well as prosecuting you for shooting deer without a licence.


Isn't your deer licence issued for a specific area?

No, the deer licence does not state the lands in which I can shoot. For example I submit my licence based on permissions at the time nbut I may get more permissions during the year which I didn't have when I applied for my licence.

Again, the npws need to tackle game dealers and reduce poaching, because none of the measures they are taking to backlist land will stop poachers.

Zxthinger

natdog wrote: »

Be very careful what you wish for 50 today can become 500 very fast and the money will not be put to good use.
look at salmon fishing in Ireland big license fee and have things improved I don't think so.
But the one thing they both have in common is the money being paid by game dealers, hotels etc. which makes poaching a very good earner.
Ban the sale of wild Deer to game dealers and a very large part of the problem will be solved and it will cost genuine stalkers nothing.

Yer dead right! They would make a grave train out of it!
I will not be paying any fees and i reckon other will see it similar to me!. That might mean that legit shooters will become poachers due to the reluctance to pay.
Christ lads do we not pay enough tax to the gov already.
I can't believe people here proposing charges for all.

useurowname

Big Buck wrote: »

The only way the NPWS can increase their budget is to charge a fee for each liscence given.
There is something close to 4500 or 5000 liscences given each year afaik, I don't think they should be free.
I'll probably be slated for this but I think it's about time each and every one of US who enjoy hunting deer start investing in the future of our sport.

Totally agree with this, I think most people who hunt deer would have no problem with a fee if they thought there would benefits in it down the line, regulation is fine provided it's in the interests of the quarry and thereby the sport.
There are many aspects of the rules for shooting/hunting in general in this country that needs to be overhauled. Personally I think there should be bag limits on wildfowl, we must be one of the few western countries that don't have proper regulations. I wonder what the NARGC think??.. suppose that's for another day.

Big Buck

Zxthinger wrote: »

Yer dead right! They would make a grave train out of it!
I will not be paying any fees and i reckon other will see it similar to me!. That might mean that legit shooters will become poachers due to the reluctance to pay.
Christ lads do we not pay enough tax to the gov already.
I can't believe people here proposing charges for all.

This is a terrible attitude I think. The "yea I love to shoot deer but I wouldn't pay for it" attitude is crazy. It's a hobby lads, it's a privilege that we shouldn't take for granted.

wexfordman2

I'd be happy enough paying a reasonable fee for a licence if we had proper regulation and enforcement.

hiddenmongoose

Big Buck wrote: »

This is a terrible attitude I think. The "yea I love to shoot deer but I wouldn't pay for it" attitude is crazy. It's a hobby lads, it's a privilege that we shouldn't take for granted.

Its not that lads wouldnt pay a fee for a licence if it was reasonable and if it did directly go to funding the npws but what would happen is the fee would go up and up and like any other fee or tax you would see f all benifit from it as sure as hell the money wouldnt go directly back into funding the npws.lads would not pay it and shoot without licences or end up selling deer to offset the licence fee.
Also in some places guys get licences as the deer are doing so much damage they are considered vermin by the land owners ,as far as that land owner is concerned its not a privilege ,its a right to protect his forestry ect

Big Buck

To me the most obvious answer and surely the best option is to ban all sale of wild venison. Cutting out demand will mean there is no supply- end of poaching with intent to sell to game dealers. It's a system which works well in other countries. I just really cannot ever imagine this happening here.

Zxthinger

Big Buck wrote: »

This is a terrible attitude I think. The "yea I love to shoot deer but I wouldn't pay for it" attitude is crazy. It's a hobby lads, it's a privilege that we shouldn't take for granted.

Who put the deer on the land? It wasn't the gov!

And I do pay to shoot deer, I pay 63% tax on the fuel I use to get there! In my car that's taxed with my licenced firearm on which I paid tax too and on the ammo that's taxed too... Im not paying anymore.
Simple.
Omg paying for deer that nature provides, are ye going to also accept a game licence fee and a fox shooting fee or a charge per rabbit.
Get real- no body wants a fee nor will the majority accept it. A fee will only cause the rank and file of the poachers union to swell..
And I won't be paying for something that I already own as a citizen of Ireland.

Big Buck

Zxthinger wrote: »

Who put the deer on the land? It wasn't the gov!

And I do pay to shoot deer, I pay 63% tax on the fuel I use to get there! In my car that's taxed with my licenced firearm on which I paid tax too and on the ammo that's taxed too... Im not paying anymore.
Simple.
Omg paying for deer that nature provides, are ye going to also accept a game licence fee and a fox shooting fee or a charge per rabbit.
Get real- no body wants a fee nor will the majority accept it. A fee will only cause the rank and file of the poachers union to swell..
And I won't be paying for something that I already own as a citizen of Ireland.

Own? You own what exactly?

Yes you pay tax on your fuel to go stalking. You also pay tax on your fuel you use to go everywhere else.

BryanL

The WDAI is there to protect deer for people selling deer stalking.

Zxthinger

Big Buck wrote: »

Own? You own what exactly?

Yes you pay tax on your fuel to go stalking. You also pay tax on your fuel you use to go everywhere else.

The people of Ireland already own the resources of this island..

I'm not interested in your 'speak' on this obvious statement. It's irrelevant to me as to the legalities of the statement or any other BS that deviates from the common sense logic that deer are natures gift! Put here by god if you like, and I will never pay for that..
I might pay for deer if they were stocked in a reserve but wild deer are free.

Zxthinger

Big Buck wrote: »

Own? You own what exactly?

Yes you pay tax on your fuel to go stalking. You also pay tax on your fuel you use to go everywhere else.

And I'll tell ye this too MATE, when you and your crowd get a fee up and running you can pay mine, seeing that you deem such a fee to be of minor inconvenience and inconsequential.

Cass

Not long in after a good stalk so apologies for the delay in replying.

Seems i've caused a little bit of a stir. While Sparks has perfectly explained it above i just wanted to add my own take.

hiddenmongoose wrote: »

How can Npws do that,If I have my deer licence got and am asked by farmer blogs to come hunt his land as he wants a few deer shot but npws have black listed it Im not allowed?

If the NPWS deem the lands to be over shot or too many people on it they can refuse a license. This is what ha happened. The land i was talking about has been poached to hell and the land owner is too nice and never refuses anyone permission.

The NPWS have rangers or DCOs. District Conservation Officers. Their job is to determine the suitability of land(s) for the amount of people with permission on them and the amount of returns from previous years to suggest possible deer numbers. I'd have no problem with them restricting or prohibiting shooting on such lands if it leads to an increase in numbers and a break to a heavily shot area.

hiddenmongoose wrote: »

But can they just black list an area legally is what im getting at.

I don't know. No point in bullsh*ting you. However as said above i've no issues with this. I've a dozen other permissions and frankly i cannot shot the land in it's current state.

wexfordman2 wrote: »

I'd be happy enough paying a reasonable fee for a licence if we had proper regulation and enforcement.

I'd have no issue either. I'd like to think it'd go to the NPWS directly, but that's a discussion for another day.

Big Buck wrote: »

To me the most obvious answer and surely the best option is to ban all sale of wild venison. Cutting out demand will mean there is no supply- end of poaching with intent to sell to game dealers. It's a system which works well in other countries. I just really cannot ever imagine this happening here.

I cannot see this working.

If they banned the sale of it it would result in two issues:

1. A black market for venison.
2. Reduction in number of shooters because there is no money it it for them, and increase in deer number to the point that they would bring in the army to cull numbers (or something along those lines).

Zxthinger wrote: »

And I won't be paying for something that I already own as a citizen of Ireland.

You own nothing.

BryanL wrote:

The WDAI is there to protect deer for people selling deer stalking.

What?

Can you elaborate on this? Not getting your meaning.

Zxthinger wrote:

The people of Ireland already own the resources of this island..

I'm not interested in your 'speak' on this obvious statement. It's irrelevant to me as to the legalities of the statement or any other BS that deviates from the common sense logic that deer are natures gift! Put here by god if you like, and I will never pay for that..
I might pay for deer if they were stocked in a reserve but wild deer are free.

As above you own nothing.

It's a simplistic and naive attitude to think that "as a citizen" you own them. Well you don't. By that logic you don't need a deer license, permission to enter land, permission to shoot on Coilte land, etc. Because "as a citizen" in your own country it's your right to have your things.

Wake up.

Grizzly 45

Cass wrote: »

Not that cut and dry.


We all know the problem poaching is but bitching and moaning when something is tried serves no purpose. I mean would you rather they continued to issue licenses on the lands and ignore the problem altogether. Plus what budget have the NPWS to work with? I'm not saying it's perfect, but given the fact they work on a shoestring budget they are limited in what they can do, and the frequency of when they can do it.

Personally,but thats just me,I'd rather they did their JOBS that we PAY with our tax monies and do the part that is difficult ,and not take easy half assed shortcuts that wont work in the long run,and will only affect the law abiding.
If your area is full of poachers and NPWS know this,why arent the stalkers demanding that the flood the area with rangers on a random basis??Heck if it was my area I'd be volenteering to do anti poaching patrols myself .Actually I'd be doing it myself anyway..

They dont have to be at every forest corner 24/7 in the season,but it works as a discouragement and might actually catch someone actin the mick.This sounds like someone sitting in their office and looking for an easy solution that doesnt require them going out and getting wet and dirty and having to earn their pay at 5AM or midnite on the weekends.


Going by previous comments made by NPWS officals over the last few years that they would rather see every last deer shot in Ireland as they are "vermin" and too many of "them feckers" out there,you would have to wonder has anyone of them ever heard of scientific culling or herd management?

Logic here seems to be...Deer...eat trees and farmers crops...Farmer complains to us...deer = pain in the ho*e.Solution issue plenty of liscenses to shoot every last one,dont be botherd about lads poaching,shure arent they doin us and the farmers a favour?
Ligitimate shooters complaining about poachers = Another bunch of pains in the ho*e.Solution black list the area where they are too many liscenses,that will shut them up!

They signed up for the job,this is part of it too,we all have unpleasent parts of our work lives to deal with that are inconvient.

Everyone these days have limited budgets to run depts or private enterprises, and we still manage to do it so why is the NPWS the exception?They have a reported scenario,and location,and as you said the place sounds like the Eastern Ukraine even before the season opens,and they aren't there doing their part.
I'd be asking why black list an area,when there if it has a problem not actively police it or at least show some face and flag at least?
but thats just me.


When I apprenticed here 30 years ago as a game keeper out in Dromoland estate in Clare,the Dept of Wildlife [as it was then known] rangers were lads that would rather spend their days[ and nights if need be] sitting out in a forest waiting to catch poachers than actually be in an office doing paperwork.
At the time with the firearms acts the way they were.Any hunter with a rifle over .22/250 from outside Ireland had to be escorted while out stalking with a dept of Wildlife offical lest "The "RA" made of with it. They also worked as guides and ghillies and got a lot of tourists into good fallow bucks out there.They were tough as old boots,and boked no messing either from anyone.I learned alot from those two lads.
I wonder do our current crop compared to the old school Rangers going by the reports and comments here over the last few seasons on their inaction and unwillingness to go out and do their duty only want to move when it is a 100% sure thing? Seems they only start moving if the poachers virtually self incriminate themselves on Facebook these days.:rolleyes: