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Formula 1 2014: Round 12 - Belgian Grand Prix

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    #272
    Infoanon
    Registered Users Posts: 4,625 ✭✭✭Infoanon


    Gintonious wrote: »
    I guess we should also mention the great drive, yet again, from Ricciardo. He is driver of the season for me so far.

    Bottas for me just shades it ahead of Ricciardo - Silverstone drive was incredible,


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    #273
    Myrddin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 33,733 ✭✭✭✭Myrddin


    Infoanon wrote: »
    Bottas for me just shades it ahead of Ricciardo - Silverstone drive was incredible,

    Bottas is really putting manners on Massa isn't he? It's a bit different to Ricciardo & Vettel, as for me, Vettel has nothing to prove...we know how good he is/can be. But Massa, he needs to make some waves, soon.


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    #274
    zombieHanalei
    Closed Accounts Posts: 695 ✭✭✭zombieHanalei


    Terrontress wrote: »
    When Hamilton disobeyed team orders, he said afterwards that he ended up outscoring Rosberg so his better standing in the championship makes it worthwhile. Surely this is the same.

    Eh, no.


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    #275
    Andrew76
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators Posts: 10,159 Mod ✭✭✭✭Andrew76


    Myrddin wrote: »
    Bottas is really putting manners on Massa isn't he? It's a bit different to Ricciardo & Vettel, as for me, Vettel has nothing to prove...we know how good he is/can be. But Massa, he needs to make some waves, soon.

    Bottas and Ricciardo are doing great this year alright. I'd love to see Bianchi in a half decent car, he looks to have the makings of a future champion maybe. Hopefully he won't be stuck in a Marussia again next year.


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    #276
    Myrddin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 33,733 ✭✭✭✭Myrddin


    A racing incident is when both drivers find themselves in an unavoidable situation. This wasn't a racing incident, Rosberg could have (and should have) seen & known Hamilton was going to hold his line, & braked. He should have waited until the next lap/drs zone where it would have been an easier pass & a lot safer, that would have been the smart, sensible thing to do (Rosberg is the 'smarter' driver isn't he?). By deliberately "choosing to not avoid a collision", it makes this scenario not a racing incident, but in fact, one which the "causing an avoidable collision" rule needs to come into effect.

    If it were the other way around, & Hamilton made such a reckless move, people would be all over him for doing it (in a bad way). But in this situation, he's still to blame in some peoples eyes. The double standards held against Hamilton never cease to amaze me. Yes it's a driving style held by the very best in the sport, "move over or we'll crash" can be a tactic employed by Hamilton, Alonso, Kimi, etc...but the difference is those guys know when to pick & choose their battles, & they can make it work for them. Rosberg on the other hand, yesterday looked like a little boy playing in the big boys club. It was one of two things, a stupid rookie error which he should be well past making, or a stupid aggressive move made in a place where it should have been made. Either way, Petronas boy netted himself a nice haul of points for ruining the race of his championship rival, & that's indefensible in a non contact race.


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    #277
    Myrddin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 33,733 ✭✭✭✭Myrddin


    Andrew76 wrote: »
    Bottas and Ricciardo are doing great this year alright. I'd love to see Bianchi in a half decent car, he looks to have the makings of a future champion maybe. Hopefully he won't be stuck in a Marussia again next year.

    Biachi definitely has potential. I wonder if the Alonso/Red Bull 'meeting' has any real substance? Imagine:

    Alonso to Red Bull
    Vettel to McLaren
    Hulkenberg/Bianchi to Ferrari


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    #278
    Oblomov
    Registered Users Posts: 9,672 ✭✭✭Oblomov


    How the German press reported the comments:

    Worst accusations of Lewis Hamilton and Rosberg: "He (.. Rosberg, Red d) has said in our team meeting, he could dodge when overtaking, but he did not. He basically said he did it to prove something to me. It came out so that he did it intentionally. You must because not only trust me, but you are welcome to Toto (Wolff, d. Red.) And Paddy (Lowe, d. Red.) Ask, who are also not satisfied with it. "

    Look back at the number of times Hamilron has nosed into a simialar position and Rosberg has moved over. The team orders farago emphasised to Rosberg that Hamilton wasn't worried about the team and more about himself.

    The question not being asked, Was Hamilton aware that Rosberg was in that position as he mpved across for the apex?

    I'm inclined to suspect that Hamilton was prepped for his eloquent comment at the BBC post race imterview. The constant "everyone is against me" little boy underlines some serious issues.

    An illustration of Hamilton's actions, on the drive yo the pits after the contretemps, clearly moved over forcing a much faster car to take avoiding action and move off the racing surface.

    Rosberg is a maligned character because he doesn'r run to management or the press with minor niggles. If Rosberg did, he would be quickly labelled the Whining German, whereas, the exact opposite.


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    #279
    Myrddin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 33,733 ✭✭✭✭Myrddin


    Oblomov wrote: »
    Rosberg is a maligned character because he doesn'r run to management or the press with minor niggles. If Rosberg did, he would be quickly labelled the Whining German, whereas, the exact opposite.

    Can't say I'd agree there. If he is indeed 'maligned', it's because of his sterile/corporate approach to the media and fans. I could be wrong, but I don't recall him ever thanking his fans for their support. He probably has inherited (through no fault of his own) the identity of the rich kid who grew up in Monaco too...something DC/EJ were saying maybe prevents people form identifying with him. German fans prob don't see him as a true German (actually they refer to him as a plastic German).


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    #280
    Gillespy
    Registered Users Posts: 2,221 ✭✭✭Gillespy


    I never noticed that he never thanks his fans. He tells the fans to read up on the regs before they boo. After he ruined their grand prix with a bit of amatuer driving on the second lap, they're entitled to boo if they want.


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    #281
    christy c
    Registered Users Posts: 2,193 ✭✭✭christy c


    I hope these clowns don't keep the booing up till the end of the season like they did with Seb last year. There's a world title at stake, not county Westmeath priest of the year, people have to get their hands dirty to win, eg Prost, Senna, Schumacher, Vettel


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    #282
    Myrddin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 33,733 ✭✭✭✭Myrddin


    christy c wrote: »
    people have to get their hands dirty to win, eg Prost, Senna, Schumacher, Vettel

    But in doing so, they shouldn't be surprised if they piss off other fans...


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    #283
    christy c
    Registered Users Posts: 2,193 ✭✭✭christy c


    Myrddin wrote: »
    But in doing so, they shouldn't be surprised if they piss off other fans...

    In that case we're going to have a lot of pissed off fans because only one driver can win. I'd give them a pass on the booing yesterday but wouldn't like to see it going on till the end of the season


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    #284
    Myrddin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 33,733 ✭✭✭✭Myrddin


    christy c wrote: »
    In that case we're going to have a lot of pissed off fans because only one driver can win. I'd give them a pass on the booing yesterday but wouldn't like to see it going on till the end of the season

    I think it was more a case of ruining Lewis' race, rather than beating him.


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    #285
    Tea 1000
    Registered Users Posts: 4,520 ✭✭✭Tea 1000


    Myrddin wrote: »
    A racing incident is when both drivers find themselves in an unavoidable situation. This wasn't a racing incident, Rosberg could have (and should have) seen & known Hamilton was going to hold his line, & braked. He should have waited until the next lap/drs zone where it would have been an easier pass & a lot safer, that would have been the smart, sensible thing to do.
    Although I don't agree that he should have waited for DRS to attempt a move, I think he should go for it whenever the chance arrives, I do agree that he should have braked. The move was over, he didn't make it, back out. Having said that, he should also hold the racing line any time Hamilton is attempting a similar move. Sometimes he is a bit generous with the space he allows.
    Myrddin wrote: »
    If it were the other way around, & Hamilton made such a reckless move, people would be all over him for doing it (in a bad way). But in this situation, he's still to blame in some peoples eyes. The double standards held against Hamilton never cease to amaze me. Yes it's a driving style held by the very best in the sport, "move over or we'll crash" can be a tactic employed by Hamilton, Alonso, Kimi, etc...but the difference is those guys know when to pick & choose their battles, & they can make it work for them.
    All those guys have made moves that didn't work for them, through their own fault. Hamilton more than the other two. But just because Hamilton does it, doesn't mean it's OK for Rosberg to do it.
    Myrddin wrote: »
    Rosberg on the other hand, yesterday looked like a little boy playing in the big boys club. It was one of two things, a stupid rookie error which he should be well past making, or a stupid aggressive move made in a place where it should have been made. Either way, Petronas boy netted himself a nice haul of points for ruining the race of his championship rival, & that's indefensible in a non contact race.
    Stupid move, but if Hamilton's tyre hadn't punctured, most would have forgotten about it as an incident where he deserved to lose his nose.
    I can see why he did it. He knows now that Hamilton will double think the next time there's a similar situation, wondering if he'll do the same, and it might affect his driving, putting him under an added pressure that otherwise he might not be under.
    Myrddin wrote: »
    Can't say I'd agree there. If he is indeed 'maligned', it's because of his sterile/corporate approach to the media and fans. I could be wrong, but I don't recall him ever thanking his fans for their support. He probably has inherited (through no fault of his own) the identity of the rich kid who grew up in Monaco too...something DC/EJ were saying maybe prevents people form identifying with him. German fans prob don't see him as a true German (actually they refer to him as a plastic German).
    Ah don't start with the rich kid arguement. It's pathetic and reeks of jealousy. Hamilton plays the "Jenny from the block" shíte too often, he didn't exactly grow up in the 'hood either.


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    #286
    Oblomov
    Registered Users Posts: 9,672 ✭✭✭Oblomov


    By Myrddin
    Can't say I'd agree there. If he is indeed 'maligned', it's because of his sterile/corporate approach to the media

    Rosberg also avoids making any derogatory remarks about Hamilton, even to the point that he downplays possible conflict. Most noticaable when asked about Hamilton, his response was to state they had known each other for years and after short period they would be talking to each other again.

    Hamilton is the more media savvy of the two. Part of the training under Ron Dennis franchise, the complete media package schooled in both what to say and how to say it.

    Rosberg comes across as the unassuming methodical driver, even in the Ice Bucket challenge, the two buckets were emptied over him, slight shrug and carried on as normal. The BBC pundits have stated that anyone who knows Rosberg personally says he is a good guy. His lifestyle is very low key in comparison with Hamilton. Rosberg seems to avoid the glare of publicity whereas Hamilton seeks and needs the glare of media attention. Almost wanting to be liked.


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    #287
    Tea 1000
    Registered Users Posts: 4,520 ✭✭✭Tea 1000


    Oblomov wrote: »
    Rosberg also avoids making any derogatory remarks about Hamilton, even to the point that he downplays possible conflict. Most noticaable when asked about Hamilton, his response was to state they had known each other for years and after short period they would be talking to each other again.

    Hamilton is the more media savvy of the two. Part of the training under Ron Dennis franchise, the complete media package schooled in both what to say and how to say it.

    Rosberg comes across as the unassuming methodical driver, even in the Ice Bucket challenge, the two buckets were emptied over him, slight shrug and carried on as normal. The BBC pundits have stated that anyone who knows Rosberg personally says he is a good guy. His lifestyle is very low key in comparison with Hamilton. Rosberg seems to avoid the glare of publicity whereas Hamilton seeks and needs the glare of media attention. Almost wanting to be liked.
    Have you seen Hamilton's ice bucket challenge? He moped out of the garage, got the bucket treatment, didn't change the downbeat mug and trudged back in again.
    Awaiting the "Oh but he wears his heart on his sleeve, poor Ham, bad race... bold Nico..." comments!!


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    #288
    Oblomov
    Registered Users Posts: 9,672 ✭✭✭Oblomov


    The question, not being asked:

    Was Hamilton aware of Rosberg at his rear wheel?

    Did Hamilton move across, knowing that Rosberg would have to back off or brake, giving him the added distance to hold off Tosberg?

    Hamilton's early career in F1 was littered with instances of "unacceptable" behavior. The contratemps with Kimi are a glaring exanple.

    Canadian GP

    But the less charitable will suggest that, faced with the inevitability of hitting either car, he preferred to take out the driver who was his more likely championship rival.

    Afterwards Hamilton said he’d seen the red light but didn’t manage to stop his car in time.

    F1 car bakes? not stopping in time?


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    #289
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 54,775 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    What was the penalty for the Ferrari team for not getting off the start grid within the 15 second warning?


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    #290
    andyman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,642 ✭✭✭andyman


    I don't know how anyone can defend Rosberg here.

    Rosberg had no right to be where he was. If he was side-by-side with Hamilton, then he can make the point of holding his line. He wasn't, the move was over, Hamilton had the racing line, Rosberg should have yielded. It was the type of move we all would have criticised Pastor Maldonado for in the past.

    That was GP3 stuff from Rosberg yesterday.


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    #291
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 54,775 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    Watching the Rosberg incident again it was Rosberg's fault. He did try to avoid the collision a split second before contact. Pure fluke that Lewis suffered a puncture.


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    #292
    andyman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,642 ✭✭✭andyman


    Oblomov wrote: »
    Canadian GP

    But the less charitable will suggest that, faced with the inevitability of hitting either car, he preferred to take out the driver who was his more likely championship rival.

    Afterwards Hamilton said he’d seen the red light but didn’t manage to stop his car in time.

    F1 car bakes? not stopping in time?

    Yes, and Hamilton got an absolute roasting for that and quite rightly.

    As for Hamilton not knowing about Rosberg being on this rear wheel, it's up to Rosberg as a professional to yield in the middle of a chicane with his car in that position. This wasn't a hairpin we are talking about.

    People are name dropping drivers like Alonso, Kimi, Button and Vettel. All of those drivers would not have done what Rosberg did yesterday. Hamilton trusted his teammate to do the right thing and yield, like most experienced drivers would do.


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    #293
    CFlat
    Registered Users Posts: 2,787 ✭✭✭CFlat


    walshb wrote: »
    What was the penalty for the Ferrari team for not getting off the start grid within the 15 second warning?


    5 second penalty in the pit box. Thankfully these days you can incorporate it in a pit stop.


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    #294
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 54,775 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    CFlat wrote: »
    5 second penalty in the pit box. Thankfully these days you can incorporate it in a pit stop.

    Okey doke, but what about the team? Did they suffer sanctions?


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    #295
    Myrddin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 33,733 ✭✭✭✭Myrddin


    Tea 1000 wrote: »
    Although I don't agree that he should have waited for DRS to attempt a move, I think he should go for it whenever the chance arrives, I do agree that he should have braked. The move was over, he didn't make it, back out. Having said that, he should also hold the racing line any time Hamilton is attempting a similar move. Sometimes he is a bit generous with the space he allows.

    Why not wait for DRS? It would have given him a clear speed advantage, Hamilton would have had to defend & only been allowed to move once, it would have been a straight piece of track rather than a chicane too. For "the smarter of the two" it would have seemed to make sense. But no, sure come up behind a car that's on the racing line through a chicane was his approach. Certainly makes you wonder.
    All those guys have made moves that didn't work for them, through their own fault. Hamilton more than the other two. But just because Hamilton does it, doesn't mean it's OK for Rosberg to do it.

    Yes they have, that's correct. But by & large, they still pick & choose their battles. Rosberg should have known who he was fighting & that yielding wasn't in Lewis' game plan...most fans would know that, let alone the drivers...and yet waiting for the DRS zone would have meant Nico would in all probability have taken 1st from Lewis with far, far less of a risk. It was a balsy move, but one which utterly failed at the expense of his title rival.
    Stupid move, but if Hamilton's tyre hadn't punctured, most would have forgotten about it as an incident where he deserved to lose his nose.
    I can see why he did it. He knows now that Hamilton will double think the next time there's a similar situation, wondering if he'll do the same, and it might affect his driving, putting him under an added pressure that otherwise he might not be under.

    I don't know, battle lines have been drawn now. Given the same situation with Lewis behind, all Lewis has to do is clip Nico's tire & nothing can be done about it. Lewis is his own worst enemy, & this will no doubt play into Nico's hands.
    Ah don't start with the rich kid arguement. It's pathetic and reeks of jealousy. Hamilton plays the "Jenny from the block" shíte too often, he didn't exactly grow up in the 'hood either.

    The rich kid argument? Who's arguing it's the case? What I said was "He probably has inherited (through no fault of his own) the identity of the rich kid who grew up in Monaco too...something DC/EJ were saying maybe prevents people from identifying with him". Personally I think they have a point, he doesn't seem to attract many fans to the grandstands at all, & I don't recall spotting any Nico flags or anything. You have to wonder why that is.


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    #296
    CFlat
    Registered Users Posts: 2,787 ✭✭✭CFlat


    walshb wrote: »
    Okey doke, but what about the team? Did they suffer sanctions?

    No, I don't think so.


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    #297
    _rebelkid
    Registered Users Posts: 1,886 ✭✭✭_rebelkid


    walshb wrote: »
    Okey doke, but what about the team? Did they suffer sanctions?

    Nope. The 5s penalty is what's listed for that offence.


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    #298
    MayoSalmon
    Registered Users Posts: 2,240 ✭✭✭MayoSalmon


    Really hope Riccardo wins it. Sick and tired of these two now.


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    #299
    _rebelkid
    Registered Users Posts: 1,886 ✭✭✭_rebelkid


    andyman wrote: »
    I don't know how anyone can defend Rosberg here.

    Rosberg had no right to be where he was. If he was side-by-side with Hamilton, then he can make the point of holding his line. He wasn't, the move was over, Hamilton had the racing line, Rosberg should have yielded. It was the type of move we all would have criticised Pastor Maldonado for in the past.

    That was GP3 stuff from Rosberg yesterday.

    Really? He went for a gap into Les Combes, the move wasn't on, so he braked early. All he did wrong was misjudge a cut back.

    If anyone had seen the BTCC Race 1, you would have seen Gordon Shedden do exactly the same thing into T1, but Civic's have flat fronts so he had an easier margin top cut back in to.

    Rosberg is still to blame for the contact, but that doesn't necessarily mean he's wrong.


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    #300
    _rebelkid
    Registered Users Posts: 1,886 ✭✭✭_rebelkid


    MayoSalmon wrote: »
    Really hope Riccardo wins it now. Sick and tired of these two now.

    It would be good to see a repeat of 2007. Hamilton and Alonso were doing the same stuff as Hamilton and Rosberg, and Raikkonen quietly swooped in for the championship.


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    #301
    Gillespy
    Registered Users Posts: 2,221 ✭✭✭Gillespy


    Such a cop out to call that a racing incident. Look at all the footage, look at what has come out subsequently and continue to call it a racing incident. Why would Toto and Nikki Lauda be so furious about a racing incident? The picture painted is Hamilton is recklessly putting drivers in the same situation every week so live by the sword die by the sword kind of thing. Cast your mind back to the start at Canada, Rosberg firmly closed the door on Hamilton, he took avoiding action and lost another place doing so. No big deal, not a squeak from Hamilton. Bring up all the times Hamilton was aggressive with Rosberg but he never once touched him nevermind put him out of the race.

    It's has come out that Rosberg is still holding onto what happened in Bahrain and is upset that Lewis didn't let him through in Hungary. It obviously affects him that he hasn't managed to overtake Hamilton.

    I'm so glad Hamilton has come out with what happened in the meeting. No doubt what kind of character we're dealing with now. Rosberg never considered that info getting out, he probably saw it as a chance to damage Hamilton mentally. Who knows where the balance lies now but Rosberg better get used to booing.


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