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Government to reverse some Public Secor Pay cuts

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    #512
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    comongethappy wrote: »
    I think the CSO have looked at like-for-like roles and found the Public & civil service doing pretty well comparatively.


    No they haven't, not in any seriously significant way.

    There were some studies done by the likes of the ESRI many years ago but the data is out of date.

    comongethappy wrote: »
    Again.... Show the numbers?

    It should be easy to show how the above agencies are propping up the 1.7 million private sector workers....

    As you say..... There would hardly be a private sector without them?
    (Which seeing that GDP is €165 billion, is quite a claim!).


    http://www.siptu.ie/media/pressreleases2014/mainnews/fullstory_18313_en.html

    Wrong post I am quoting from but I think you looked for evidence of pay increases. 210 agreements in manufacturing covering both small and large businesses according to SIPTU.


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    #513
    Little CuChulainn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,624 ✭✭✭Little CuChulainn


    kippy wrote: »
    I'd be all for a break from collective bargaining to be honest and pay increases based on performance against metrics as opposed to increments for time served.

    Reminds me of a Terry Pratchett book where they described the problems that arose after they started paying fireman per fire they extinguished. The fact is that there are many roles in the PS which simply aren't suited to those kind of performance based systems as it is too difficult to quantify their performance in any meaningful way.


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    #514
    chopper6
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,214 ✭✭✭chopper6


    kippy wrote: »
    When I look at examples like that I always ask myself, why isn't that person on 82K a year in the private sector if they would be much better off there?

    Because by and large the public sector is a better environment to work in.


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    #515
    chopper6
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,214 ✭✭✭chopper6


    Little CuChulainn wrote: »
    Reminds me of a Terry Pratchett book where they described the problems that arose after they started paying fireman per fire they extinguished. The fact is that there are many roles in the PS which simply aren't suited to those kind of performance based systems as it is too difficult to quantify their performance in any meaningful way.

    They should pay the Gardaí by the amount of people they arrest or nurses by the numbers of dressings they change.

    Like for like comparison is impossible.


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    #516
    kippy
    Registered Users Posts: 18,452 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    Little CuChulainn wrote: »
    Reminds me of a Terry Pratchett book where they described the problems that arose after they started paying fireman per fire they extinguished. The fact is that there are many roles in the PS which simply aren't suited to those kind of performance based systems as it is too difficult to quantify their performance in any meaningful way.

    That argument is always used, however it shouldn't stop a review of roles where performance can be measured.

    Point I am making, if you want to see a restoration of pay for sectors of the PS you need to get away from collective barganing.


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    #517
    kippy
    Registered Users Posts: 18,452 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    chopper6 wrote: »
    Because by and large the public sector is a better environment to work in.

    Then whats the moaning about?


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    #518
    kippy
    Registered Users Posts: 18,452 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    LordNorbury wrote: »
    Maybe you need to spend a day working in any small business in Ireland that is trading in the domestic economy. Just a thought.

    This is a very relevant point in general in a lot of these discussions.


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    #519
    barneystinson
    Registered Users Posts: 4,683 ✭✭✭barneystinson


    kippy wrote: »
    Then whats the moaning about?

    Working environment doesn't have any relation to whether a person is underpaid / overpaid...


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    #520
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    Larbre34 wrote: »
    It might surprise some myopic private sector operators that it 'boils the p1ss' of public sector workers who might have two or three third level qualifications and long years of experience that they are always complained about for having much higher pay than the private sector average. Come back to me with a private sector average pay figure that strips out the unskilled labour, the service industry workers, the cleaners and fry cooks, the night watchmen and kitchen porters and we'll have a proper comparison of graduate and long service pay across the sectors which may ruin the mantra of some folk.

    I'll give you two examples, a senior solicitor or head of finance role in a typical public sector body can currently earn a max of €82,000. Those are roles usually achieved in the 30 years + experience bracket. Show me a partner solicitor or senior accountant who would settle for that salary in the private sector after those years. And the pension differential doesnt make up for it, the private sector counterparts could well afford to privately provide for similar benefits on retirement, if thats what they chose to invest in
    kippy wrote: »
    When I look at examples like that I always ask myself, why isn't that person on 82K a year in the private sector if they would be much better off there?

    The point about this is that the solicitor/accountant/other professional shows up in the average earnings of a public sector worker pushing up the average while the equivalent in the private sector is usually self-employed/contractor and doesn't show up in the average earnings of a private sector worker, artificially pushing them down.


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    #521
    chopper6
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,214 ✭✭✭chopper6


    kippy wrote: »
    Then whats the moaning about?

    The moaning is coming from people who don't work there about the people who do.

    ten years ago we couldn't get people to take jobs on the wages they had to start on,a guy driving a delivery van was making more money than a supervisor with 20 years experience.

    Any new entrants nowadays are on short contracts with starting wages in the 20-25k range...all of them graduates.


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    #522
    kippy
    Registered Users Posts: 18,452 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    barneystinson wrote: »
    Working environment doesn't have any relation to whether a person is underpaid / overpaid...

    Again, working environment, terms, conditions, pay etc all come into a decision making process for me, and I would suspect everyone.

    Point I am making, if that person thinks they can do better elsewhere doing something else, then they should do that.
    Let the state worry about the "brain drain" for the sector and make attempts to resolve it down the line.


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    #523
    chopper6
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,214 ✭✭✭chopper6


    kippy wrote: »
    Point I am making, if that person thinks they can do better elsewhere doing something else, then they should do that.
    .


    They often do...what's your point?


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    #524
    kippy
    Registered Users Posts: 18,452 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    chopper6 wrote: »
    They often do...what's your point?

    Point is, I hear, every day, people in the PS moaning about the awful terms they work under and how things are much better in the private sector, wage increases, bonus' etc etc

    If that is the case these people need to review where they are at in their career instead of expecting the taxpayer to fund their expectations.


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    #525
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    kippy wrote: »
    Point is, I hear, every day, people in the PS moaning about the awful terms they work under and how things are much better in the private sector, wage increases, bonus' etc etc

    If that is the case these people need to review where they are at in their career instead of expecting the taxpayer to fund their expectations.


    Yes, but the government also needs to ensure that it has sufficient people of the quality it requires to deliver the appropriate service.

    They have already had to make an embarrassing climb-down on cuts to hospital consultants.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/hospital-consultants-to-be-offered-24-pay-rise-1.1878591


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    #526
    chopper6
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,214 ✭✭✭chopper6


    kippy wrote: »
    Point is, I hear, every day, people in the PS moaning about the awful terms they work under and how things are much better in the private sector, wage increases, bonus' etc etc

    If that is the case these people need to review where they are at in their career instead of expecting the taxpayer to fund their expectations.

    Do you hear people in the PS moaning every day?

    The only moaning I hear with any regularity is the private sector moaning about how easy the PS have it and how all our pay should be cut.

    And as for the taxpayer funding everything,the PS are the largest contributory block of taxpayers in the country PLUS they're all tax compliant.


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    #527
    kippy
    Registered Users Posts: 18,452 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    Godge wrote: »
    Yes, but the government also needs to ensure that it has sufficient people of the quality it requires to deliver the appropriate service.

    They have already had to make an embarrassing climb-down on cuts to hospital consultants.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/hospital-consultants-to-be-offered-24-pay-rise-1.1878591

    Indeed.
    I don't dispute that, indeed I mentioned the doctors as an example of what happens when the terms and conditions in one sector/country aren't god enough to attract/retain the right people.

    But right now, a whole cohort of people in the public sector believe that things are all rosy in the private sector (everywhere) and that it's a much better place to work.
    Until they actually make that move, I don't believe the state have any reasont to increase rates for the ENTIRE sector.


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    #528
    noodler
    Registered Users Posts: 26,278 ✭✭✭✭noodler


    Godge wrote: »
    No they haven't, not in any seriously significant way.

    There were some studies done by the likes of the ESRI many years ago but the data is out of date.





    http://www.siptu.ie/media/pressreleases2014/mainnews/fullstory_18313_en.html

    Wrong post I am quoting from but I think you looked for evidence of pay increases. 210 agreements in manufacturing covering both small and large businesses according to SIPTU.

    210 out of 189,000 SMEs (2011 figures, likely larger now).
    http://www.cso.ie/en/media/csoie/releasespublications/documents/multisectoral/2011/businessinireland2011.pdf


    Hardly the basis for wage increases in a sector dependent on the above.
    Godge wrote: »
    Yes, but the government also needs to ensure that it has sufficient people of the quality it requires to deliver the appropriate service.

    They have already had to make an embarrassing climb-down on cuts to hospital consultants.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/hospital-consultants-to-be-offered-24-pay-rise-1.1878591

    A very poor example.

    There are massive swaths of the public sector which do not require such levels of skills and expertise and whose jobs are not as mobile.

    The demand for teaching jobs does not seem to be affected, nor the demand for recent Civil Servant roles at entry levels.


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    #529
    chopper6
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,214 ✭✭✭chopper6


    kippy wrote: »
    Until they actually make that move, I don't believe the state have any reasont to increase rates for the ENTIRE sector.

    You're missing the point...again.

    This is not about "raising rates"...it's about the reinstatement of paycuts that the Govt imposed as a temporary measure.

    Do you understand what temporary means?


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    #530
    kippy
    Registered Users Posts: 18,452 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    chopper6 wrote: »
    Do you hear people in the PS moaning every day?

    The only moaning I hear with any regularity is the private sector moaning about how easy the PS have it and how all our pay should be cut.

    And as for the taxpayer funding everything,the PS are the largest contributory block of taxpayers in the country PLUS they're all tax compliant.

    Yes, I do.
    You'll find a few of them on this thread. You see PS Unions always complaining on behalf of their members about various aspects of their terms and conditions, stating how great things are in the Private sector.
    A lot of these people have never set foot outside the public sector in their lives.

    I've been involved in this argument before and I am not getting involved again but the bottom line is the more private sector tax payers there are in the country the better. That should be ovbious.

    How do you mean they are all tax compliant? Maybe for their primary income but you cannot for a fact state that all public sector workers are tax compliant..........


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    #531
    chopper6
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,214 ✭✭✭chopper6


    kippy wrote: »
    How do you mean they are all tax compliant? Maybe for their primary income but you cannot for a fact state that all public sector workers are tax compliant..........

    Okay then...find me a few public servants on this list:



    http://www.revenue.ie/en/press/defaulters/


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    #532
    kippy
    Registered Users Posts: 18,452 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    chopper6 wrote: »
    You're missing the point...again.

    This is not about "raising rates"...it's about the reinstatement of paycuts that the Govt imposed as a temporary measure.

    Do you understand what temporary means?

    Irrelevant.

    Temporary is a long or as short as the deciding body want it to be - indeed there were temporary measures implemented in the 80's I believe to cover losses at a bank or building society (cant remember the details) that are still getting paid today.

    In an environment of approximately 200 Billion indebetness, a fiscal deficit of approximately 650 million per month, mass immigration etc etc, it would be totally reckless to increase spending by the amount talked about UNLESS it is a benefit to ALL workers.


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    #533
    chopper6
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,214 ✭✭✭chopper6


    kippy wrote: »
    In an environment of approximately 200 Billion indebetness, a fiscal deficit of approximately 650 million per month, mass immigration etc etc, it would be totally reckless to increase spending by the amount talked about UNLESS it is a benefit to ALL workers.

    But the PS spend their money in the private sector...not the other way round.

    More money for the PS means their spending power is increased.

    So it IS a benefitto all workers...quite apart from the fact that only 40% of any restored pay will actually go into the PS pockets.


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    #534
    kippy
    Registered Users Posts: 18,452 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    chopper6 wrote: »
    Okay then...find me a few public servants on this list:



    http://www.revenue.ie/en/press/defaulters/

    That list doesn't state whether they work for the state or not.


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    #535
    kippy
    Registered Users Posts: 18,452 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    chopper6 wrote: »
    But the PS spend their money in the private sector...not the other way round.

    More money for the PS means their spending power is increased.

    So it IS a benefitto all workers...quite apart from the fact that only 40% of any restored pay will actually go into the PS pockets.

    Really, that's your understanding of the economy?

    The state should just employ another 200K public sector workers, pay them 50K a year each and hey presto, the economy is sorted.


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    #536
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    noodler wrote: »

    A very poor example.

    There are massive swaths of the public sector which do not require such levels of skills and expertise and whose jobs are not as mobile.

    The demand for teaching jobs does not seem to be affected, nor the demand for recent Civil Servant roles at entry levels.


    How do you know? Are you on a school management board evaluating the CVs and number of good quality applicants for teaching jobs?

    Or is this just a throwaway remark?


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    #537
    chopper6
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,214 ✭✭✭chopper6


    kippy wrote: »
    That list doesn't state whether they work for the state or not.

    Ah ffs...if they work for the state their tax is deducted at source.

    Or maybe you think there are a lot of state-sponsored Scrap metal yards and Takeaways?

    :rolleyes::rolleyes:


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    #538
    Tiger Mcilroy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,562 ✭✭✭Tiger Mcilroy


    chopper6 wrote: »
    The moaning is coming from people who don't work there about the people who do.

    ten years ago we couldn't get people to take jobs on the wages they had to start on,a guy driving a delivery van was making more money than a supervisor with 20 years experience.

    Any new entrants nowadays are on short contracts with starting wages in the 20-25k range...all of them graduates.

    Can we have a ban on this particular lie being posted over and again, its been shown time and again that the public service was oversubscribed with applicants during this period.

    Its simply not true to say otherwise.


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    #539
    chopper6
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,214 ✭✭✭chopper6


    kippy wrote: »
    The state should just employ another 200K public sector workers, pay them 50K a year each and hey presto, the economy is sorted.

    At least there'd be some sort of efficiency and 100% tax compliance.

    Or maybe you yearn for the days of white van men doing nixers and McFeely-style developments everywhere?


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    #540
    barneystinson
    Registered Users Posts: 4,683 ✭✭✭barneystinson


    chopper6 wrote: »
    Okay then...find me a few public servants on this list:



    http://www.revenue.ie/en/press/defaulters/

    That's a terribly flawed argument - that list isn't everyone in the country who had to make a tax settlement, it's only the ones who met the criteria for publication. There's no shortage of gardai/nurses/teachers etc who have had to deal with undeclared rental income down through the years. Just because the amount of their liabilities, or the fact that they owned up, avoided publication, doesn't mean they didn't / don't exist.

    I really really really wish you weren't posting on these threads sometimes, as you actually play right up to the stereotype of the entitled PS that they want to bash. At times your posts even make me wonder if you might actually be a dummy account set up by a PS-basher to post the sort of stuff that would play right into their hands... :(


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    #541
    kippy
    Registered Users Posts: 18,452 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    chopper6 wrote: »
    Ah ffs...if they work for the state their tax is deducted at source.

    Or maybe you think there are a lot of state-sponsored Scrap metal yards and Takeaways?

    :rolleyes::rolleyes:

    Look at the list and look at the professions.
    Company Directors, Farmers, Publicans, Unknowns - full of them.
    All of these "Professions" can be worked and are worked, by Public Sector workers as well.
    You can hold a number of "professions".
    The list tells us nothing about the tax complaince of every single public sector worker in the state.

    I'm finished now.

    As soon as the rolleyes are out I know I'll have to drop a few levels to explain everything.


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