Government to reverse some Public Secor Pay cuts

noodler

Chimichangas wrote: »

arrived to this thread late, but I also must have missed the part where it was found that government spending bankrupt the country..???? #areuforreal?

Government spending did bankrupt the country.

A far greater proportion of our borrowing over the last five years has been to fund public services rather than recapitalise banks.

It is funny how people bring themselves to believe that we'd have been running healthy surpluses if we hadn't saved the banks!

kippy

chopper6 wrote: »

They will be when the money that's been set aside to pay them is available.

I for one am looking forward to it

So you think it's feasible for a country to increase spending on wages when the country is borrowing 650 odd million a month to staff afloat, has a national debt equivalent to 45K per head of population (200Billion/4,5 million) and ultimately it is the generations after us that will end up picking up the majority of the tab?

The public sector should see themselves lucky that they were't given the same treatment that the public sector in Greece were given or indeed many other countries that found themselves in trouble.

Idbatterim

I note from the below link that SF say they would" cap PS pay at realistic rates"... http://www.sinnfein.ie/what-sinn-fein-stands-for

kippy

noodler wrote: »

Government spending did bankrupt the country.

A far greater proportion of our borrowing over the last five years has been to fund public services rather than recapitalise banks.

It is funny how people bring themselves to believe that we'd have been running healthy surpluses if we hadn't saved the banks!

100%, the majority of borrowing over the past 4 years has been to fund the running of the country - not the banks.

The building crash and subsequent crash in building related tax income (both employment taxes and other) as well as the almost immediate employment crisis as a result have meant the state has been in crisis for years now.

LordNorbury

sparksfly wrote: »

Unfortunately it will be tolerated. The private sector is disjointed, unrepresented by their unions (who only look after their public sector members ) and generally let themselves be trampled on again and again.
A much fairer move would be to reduce the USC for everyone, but no, lets give the public sector more.

Its high time there was an effective union exclusively for the private sector.

You have a very good point there, private sector people just want to get on with things in my view. There is a very cosy arrangement in place I believe, and I have this on good authority from a senior trade union official, that the government are completely fine with civil servants being highly unionised, that this is the gravy for them, the ICTU affiliated unions can deal with all the government departments and the protected semi states, the teachers and the nurses and the prison officers, and the rest of them, but they are not to go near the multinationals, in particular the US MNC's that have what they refer to as their "direct engagement" HR model that doesn't entertain collective pay increases but rather deals with employees pay increases on a 1:1 basis.

All you are left with then, is actually where the majority of people in Ireland currently work, which is in small indigenous Irish businesses. Unions aren't interested in these as it would be too much work, small time employers tend to be wary of unions, as indeed would their staff.

chopper6

LordNorbury wrote: »

All you are left with then, is actually where the majority of people in Ireland currently work, which is in small indigenous Irish businesses. Unions aren't interested in these as it would be too much work, small time employers tend to be wary of unions, as indeed would their staff.

When I worked in Dunnes it was heavily unionised.

LordNorbury

chopper6 wrote: »

When I worked in Dunnes it was heavily unionised.

Yeah retail tends to be the exception, but the majority of Irish people work in small companies and local firms... Unions would be too lazy to try to engage with these people. Why go plodding around Irish industrial estates getting told to fúck off when you can go into a big organisation and get possibly hundreds of staff onto your books.

chopper6

LordNorbury wrote: »

Yeah retail tends to be the exception, but the majority of Irish people work in small companies and local firms... Unions would be too lazy to try to engage with these people. Why go plodding around Irish industrial estates getting told to fúck off when you can go into a big organisation and get possibly hundreds of staff onto your books.

What about the Vintners union? Most bars and pubs have unions as well...they were active in establishing a minimum wage for barmen.

LordNorbury

chopper6 wrote: »

What about the Vintners union? Most bars and pubs have unions as well...they were active in establishing a minimum wage for barmen.

Yeah there are exceptions, fishermen are another and farmers, but go into any industrial estate anywhere in Ireland and knock on the door of any small business and ask whoever answers the door, (1) Are the staff unionised, and (2) if they're not, would they be interested in joining a union, and answer I strongly suspect will be no to both.

Head The Wall

chopper6 wrote: »

When I worked in Dunnes it was heavily unionised.

Is Dunnes a small employer? No it's not

Sheldons Brain

kippy wrote: »

The public sector should see themselves lucky that they were't given the same treatment that the public sector in Greece were given or indeed many other countries that found themselves in trouble.

The public sector did not receive the same treatment as in Greece because citizens generally did not. However, it seems that some here regard the public sector as some kind of Untermensch not entitled to the same consideration as other citizens. A crisis is one thing, but only the most cynical and immoral government could propose giving tax cuts to a population that had generally had modest pay cuts, and which is now generally experiencing pay increases, while also claiming that there was no case for altering the much larger pay cuts experienced by its own employees.

chopper6

Head The Wall wrote: »

Is Dunnes a small employer? No it's not

But it's a private company....

comongethappy

Sheldons Brain wrote: »

The public sector did not receive the same treatment as in Greece because citizens generally did not. However, it seems that some here regard the public sector as some kind of Untermensch not entitled to the same consideration as other citizens. A crisis is one thing, but only the most cynical and immoral government could propose giving tax cuts to a population that had generally had modest pay cuts, and which is now generally experiencing pay increases, while also claiming that there was no case for altering the much larger pay cuts experienced by its own employees.

Is the private sector "generally experiencing pay increases"?

The company I work for is in profit, but are still frantically driving down costs as much as they can.

chopper6

comongethappy wrote: »

Is the private sector "generally experiencing pay increases"?

The company I work for is in profit, but are still frantically driving down costs as much as they can.

Seeing as people love to quote the indo:

http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/vast-majority-of-workers-in-private-sector-expecting-a-pay-increase-29723432.html

LordNorbury

There is an improvement in tax returns as more people are starting up businesses, but there has not yet been any improvement whatsoever in the domestic economy. This economy is still suffering from price deflation, while the general mood might have slightly improved, (relative to the days where we didn't know what currency we would be seeing coming out of the ATM the next morning if we had to leave the Euro), people have not started opening their wallets again to any noticeable extent, and staying in business is still a real daily struggle.

How anyone thinks that there are these broad sweeping pay increases going on in our economy is utterly beyond me I have to say. I'm in small business myself and know several others who are, and the theme is the exact same, it's still harder to get the work than it is to do the work.

kippy

Sheldons Brain wrote: »

The public sector did not receive the same treatment as in Greece because citizens generally did not. However, it seems that some here regard the public sector as some kind of Untermensch not entitled to the same consideration as other citizens. A crisis is one thing, but only the most cynical and immoral government could propose giving tax cuts to a population that had generally had modest pay cuts, and which is now generally experiencing pay increases, while also claiming that there was no case for altering the much larger pay cuts experienced by its own employees.

1. Tax cuts are are benefit to everyone, including public sector workers.
2. Public sector workers should be delighted that these often talked about pay rises in the private sector are happening - I would suggest they are only happening in certain areas, as it should mean an overall improvement in the economy at some point.
3. "Modest" pay cuts? About 300K + workers found themselves on the dole. Hardly a modest pay cut.
4. The state can only directly impact on the pay of it's own employees. It cannot generally impact on the amount private sector workers get paid and the terms and conditions under which these are paid.
5. The country is not in a position to increase the pay of 300K workers, without taking into account the other workers who have also born the brunt of the adjustment.

LordNorbury

I have to actually disengage from this thread 'cos people thinking that I can pay more tax so that they can continue living in unreformed and cossetted public sector handy numbers, who are still getting automatic annual increments, who still are unaccountable to nobody, 6 years into this, it sickens my hole I have to say and boils my píss, so I'm disengaging from the discussion.

chopper6

LordNorbury wrote: »

I have to actually disengage from this thread 'cos people thinking that I can pay more tax so that they can continue living in unreformed and cossetted public sector handy numbers, who are still getting automatic annual increments, who still are unaccountable to nobody, 6 years into this, it sickens my hole I have to say and boils my píss, so I'm disengaging from the discussion.

Maybe you need to lower your prices in your business if you want more custom?

Just a thought.

Tiger Mcilroy

Private sector employees/business paying more tax = Public sector pay increases

Hmmm.

kippy

Tiger Mcilroy wrote: »

Private sector employees/business paying more tax = Public sector pay increases

Hmmm.

A healthy private sector is good for all residents of the state, including other private sector workers.
That should be obvious.

chopper6

Tiger Mcilroy wrote: »

Private sector employees/business paying more tax = Public sector pay increases

Hmmm.

Without Enterprise Ireland and the IDA there's hardly be a private sector anyway...it's the public purse propping up these businesses.

Of course that's usually forgotten about in any discussion.

comongethappy

chopper6 wrote: »

Seeing as people love to quote the indo:

http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/vast-majority-of-workers-in-private-sector-expecting-a-pay-increase-29723432.html

That isn't data though.

Just because people "expect" a raise doesn't mean they will get one..... I expect one, as it was promised, but its not likely to happen

You said people in the private sector are generally receiving pay increases.
I'm wondering if you or anyone has real data confirming same.

comongethappy

chopper6 wrote: »

Without Enterprise Ireland and the IDA there's hardly be a private sector anyway...it's the public purse propping up these businesses.

Of course that's usually forgotten about in any discussion.

Again.... Show the numbers?

It should be easy to show how the above agencies are propping up the 1.7 million private sector workers....

As you say..... There would hardly be a private sector without them?
(Which seeing that GDP is €165 billion, is quite a claim!).

Tiger Mcilroy

comongethappy wrote: »

Again.... Show the numbers?

It should be easy to show how the above agencies are propping up the 1.7 million private sector workers....

As you say..... There would hardly be a private sector without them?
(Which seeing that GDP is €165 billion, is quite a claim!).

Beat me to it..i had to read that post a few times to determine if its intentionally designed to antagonise and hopefully get a response that would lead to an infraction.

Sheldons Brain

kippy wrote: »

2. Public sector workers should be delighted that these often talked about pay rises in the private sector are happening - I would suggest they are only happening in certain areas, as it should mean an overall improvement in the economy at some point.

OK then, why do you not support pay increases for public workers in "certain areas". Why should a person in the PS with particular skills be happy to have 20% less than in 2008 when those with similar skills that they went to college with have 10% more? And don't say that they should just leave, how is the country better off if the skilled all leave the PS leaving the unskilled?

Larbre34

Its not a 'pay increase' for public sector workers at issue, its the cancellation of an emergency law money grab, no different from slicing off the private pension funds.

It might surprise some myopic private sector operators that it 'boils the p1ss' of public sector workers who might have two or three third level qualifications and long years of experience that they are always complained about for having much higher pay than the private sector average. Come back to me with a private sector average pay figure that strips out the unskilled labour, the service industry workers, the cleaners and fry cooks, the night watchmen and kitchen porters and we'll have a proper comparison of graduate and long service pay across the sectors which may ruin the mantra of some folk.

I'll give you two examples, a senior solicitor or head of finance role in a typical public sector body can currently earn a max of €82,000. Those are roles usually achieved in the 30 years + experience bracket. Show me a partner solicitor or senior accountant who would settle for that salary in the private sector after those years. And the pension differential doesnt make up for it, the private sector counterparts could well afford to privately provide for similar benefits on retirement, if thats what they chose to invest in

kippy

Sheldons Brain wrote: »

OK then, why do you not support pay increases for public workers in "certain areas". Why should a person in the PS with particular skills be happy to have 20% less than in 2008 when those with similar skills that they went to college with have 10% more? And don't say that they should just leave, how is the country better off if the skilled all leave the PS leaving the unskilled?

I'd be all for a break from collective bargaining to be honest and pay increases based on performance against metrics as opposed to increments for time served.


The current system of payment in the Public sector leads to:
1. Inefficiences.
2. A lack of motivating factors for better performance.
3. The same pay scales applying to those that "work their hole off" as those that literally "don't do a tap"
4. Someone in the same role as someone else but the fact that one guy is in the role 20 years versus a guy who is only in it 3 years getting up to 20K less per annum for it. (within the public sector)

The PS is in a bad position at the moment in relation to "Skills" in my opinion, especially in certain areas.

I think the point you make about people earning less than the people they went to college with is ridiculous to be honest.

I review my career every year, if I amn't happy with my terms and conditions and believe I can do better for myself, I begin to plan how to do that and make that move if I feel it's best for me.

Overtime, as we have seen with recent comments about doctors pay etc, if enough people of the skills required aren't going into the PS or leaving it, the state HAS to entice these people by bettering terms and conditions or increasing pay etc.

kippy

Larbre34 wrote: »

Its not a 'pay increase' for public sector workers at issue, its the cancellation of an emergency law money grab, no different from slicing off the private pension funds.

It might surprise some myopic private sector operators that it 'boils the p1ss' of public sector workers who might have two or three third level qualifications and long years of experience that they are always complained about for having much higher pay than the private sector average. Come back to me with a private sector average pay figure that strips out the unskilled labour, the service industry workers, the cleaners and fry cooks, the night watchmen and kitchen porters and we'll have a proper comparison of graduate and long service pay across the sectors which may ruin the mantra of some folk.

I'll give you two examples, a senior solicitor or head of finance role in a typical public sector body can currently earn a max of €82,000. Those are roles usually achieved in the 30 years + experience bracket. Show me a partner solicitor or senior accountant who would settle for that salary in the private sector after those years. And the pension differential doesnt make up for it, the private sector counterparts could well afford to privately provide for similar benefits on retirement, if thats what they chose to invest in

When I look at examples like that I always ask myself, why isn't that person on 82K a year in the private sector if they would be much better off there?

comongethappy

kippy wrote: »

When I look at examples like that I always ask myself, why isn't that person on 82K a year in the private sector if they would be much better off there?

I think the CSO have looked at like-for-like roles and found the Public & civil service doing pretty well comparatively.

LordNorbury

chopper6 wrote: »

Maybe you need to lower your prices in your business if you want more custom?

Just a thought.

Maybe you need to spend a day working in any small business in Ireland that is trading in the domestic economy. Just a thought.