Government to reverse some Public Secor Pay cuts

noodler

Godge wrote: »

How do you know? Are you on a school management board evaluating the CVs and number of good quality applicants for teaching jobs?

Or is this just a throwaway remark?

Oh please. You just said pay rises in 210 firms somehow justify increases in the Public sector without having a clue how many SMEs there are in total so don't talk to me about throwaway remarks.

I know becuase there are 100s of unemployed teachers unable to get jobs or doing insufficent hours - and this is not due to public sector pay cuts.

If you want to argue this point, which has been well-established for the last four years then good luck to you. However, I think it will prove you are not interested in any form of debate and demand evidence for other posters' points that you don't demand from your own.

chopper6

barneystinson wrote: »

There's no shortage of gardai/nurses/teachers etc who have had to deal with undeclared rental income down through the years.

Can you provide a link for this?

I love the idea of nurses moonlighting as landlords!

chopper6

kippy wrote: »

Look at the list and look at the professions.
Company Directors, Farmers, Publicans, Unknowns - full of them.
All of these "Professions" can be worked and are worked, by Public Sector workers as well.
You can hold a number of "professions".
The list tells us nothing about the tax complaince of every single public sector worker in the state.

I'm finished now.

As soon as the rolleyes are out I know I'll have to drop a few levels to explain everything.

Not if you work in the public sector you cant.

Monife

kippy wrote: »

Point is, I hear, every day, people in the PS moaning about the awful terms they work under and how things are much better in the private sector, wage increases, bonus' etc etc

If that is the case these people need to review where they are at in their career instead of expecting the taxpayer to fund their expectations.

I never hear PS workers moaning about terms and conditions and I am a PS worker (albeit fairly new). I left a very stressful job to take up my current PS job and took a 4 grand pay reduction to do so. I probably would have got an increase of 2 to 4 grand this year too had I stayed so effectively lost out on 8 grand. But the work conditions and atmosphere and environment were much more important to me.

So to put a bit of perspective to the salary argument, my position in the private sector earns between €30,000 and €38,000 in Dublin however I am earning less than 22 grand!

chopper6

noodler wrote: »

I know becuase there are 100s of unemployed teachers unable to get jobs or doing insufficent hours - and this is not due to public sector pay cuts.

.

No..it's due to overall numbers being reduced...another form of cut.

fliball123

Sheldons Brain wrote: »

OK then, why do you not support pay increases for public workers in "certain areas". Why should a person in the PS with particular skills be happy to have 20% less than in 2008 when those with similar skills that they went to college with have 10% more? And don't say that they should just leave, how is the country better off if the skilled all leave the PS leaving the unskilled?

Because there have been pay rises going on in sectors all over the ps right through the crisis they are annual increments..Get over yourself we are still borrowing so no pay rises until we stop borrowing at the very least..then get in line after tax cuts for everyone

fliball123

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Reminds me of a Terry Pratchett book where they described the problems that arose after they started paying fireman per fire they extinguished. The fact is that there are many roles in the PS which simply aren't suited to those kind of performance based systems as it is too difficult to quantify their performance in any meaningful way.

yet this performance measures being inadequate argument was never brought up when they were used twice during benchmarking in the years leading up to the bust. Where PS went upwards?

Gumbo

fliball123 wrote: »

Where PS went upwards?

Not all PS staff got pay rises during benchmarking.

chopper6

fliball123 wrote: »

Because there have been pay rises going on in sectors all over the ps right through the crisis they are annual increments..

An annual increment is not a pay increase...it's a progression through the salary scale.

fliball123

chopper6 wrote: »

You're missing the point...again.

This is not about "raising rates"...it's about the reinstatement of paycuts that the Govt imposed as a temporary measure.

Do you understand what temporary means?

Sorry but those cuts were a measure to reverse the farce that was benchmarking we were promised more under benchmarking and it never happened so its been taken off you...

noodler

chopper6 wrote: »

No..it's due to overall numbers being reduced...another form of cut.

Not sure what you mean by no? The point was that PS pay cuts are not reducing demands for teaching jobs.


By the way: The number of teaching posts has fallen by 2% since the crisis began and Secondary level and increased by 3% at primary level.

These figures are likely to increase further.

chopper6

fliball123 wrote: »

Sorry but those cuts were a measure to reverse the farce that was benchmarking we were promised more under benchmarking and it never happened so its been taken off you...

And soon it will be restored!

fliball123

chopper6 wrote: »

But the PS spend their money in the private sector...not the other way round.

More money for the PS means their spending power is increased.

So it IS a benefitto all workers...quite apart from the fact that only 40% of any restored pay will actually go into the PS pockets.

If the 300k get their payrises it means a pay cut for the rest as we are still borrowing and doing this in the same year that all of a sudden the tax we pay is no longer enough for water..Its madness....

chopper6

fliball123 wrote: »

If the 300k get their payrises it means a pay cut for the rest as we are still borrowing and doing this in the same year that all of a sudden the tax we pay is no longer enough for water..Its madness....

So you reckon water charges are there to pay for "pay rises"??

fliball123

kceire wrote: »

Not all PS staff got pay rises during benchmarking.

Thats beside the point in this instance..the poster is trying to state that a like for like evaluation of jobs in the ps with the private sector cannot be done, yet it was done twice before and pushed ps pay up or to append that to your argument it pushed up the amount the tax payer had to pay/borrow to pay for ps pay and pensions.

chopper6

fliball123 wrote: »

Thats beside the point in this instance..the poster is trying to state that a like for like evaluation of jobs in the ps with the private sector cannot be done, yet it was done twice before and pushed ps pay up or to append that to your argument it pushed up the amount the tax payer had to pay/borrow to pay for ps pay and pensions.

What about the amount the taxpayer had to pay for social welfare increases and the three paycuts the PS took to pay for the banking crises?

fliball123

chopper6 wrote: »

An annual increment is not a pay increase...it's a progression through the salary scale.

sorry does that person get more in their wage YES
does it cost more for the tax payer YES

if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck..then pal I am afraid its a DUCK

The level of spin in the ps is gas..

The pension levy is a pay cut and not a contribution to a defined benefit even do it comes out before tax and now an increment is not a pay rise..

Are you Kevin Cardiff ?

chopper6

fliball123 wrote: »

sorry does that person get more in their wage YES
?

Of course...do you think the person should be on a starting wage forever?

I'd just love to know what job YOU have(if any).

ardmacha

fliball123 wrote: »

Thats beside the point in this instance..the poster is trying to state that a like for like evaluation of jobs in the ps with the private sector cannot be done, yet it was done twice before and pushed ps pay up or to append that to your argument it pushed up the amount the tax payer had to pay/borrow to pay for ps pay and pensions.

When, exactly, was a proper honest evaluation done?

The pension levy is a pay cut and not a contribution to a defined benefit even do it comes out before tax and now an increment is not a pay rise..

The legislation states that it is not a contribution, yet you keep on incessantly stating the opposite. I think you have a problem with reality. As for being before tax, does not any pay cut not reduce your before tax income? The government might be rapacious, but they don not tax you on income that you didn't get!

Idbatterim

at least if PS get it, a large % goes back in direct taxes to government and the rest into the economy, with welfare if they give out a billion, they are getting far less back. With Ps if they give out a billion, you could be looking at what 40-50% coming straight back by it being deducted at source.

Also with comparisons between Irish and Uk, German PS rates. Isnt it the net pay rather than the gross that matters, the scandalous rates here make what appears at first glance to be very high salaries to be far more modest...

I.e say you were on 100k a year but income tax was 99%, would you say you were on 1k or 99k? I.e at which point due you start giving the net as the gross becomes so misleading due to the ridiculous rates here?

Now you could argue that they arent borrowing billions a year and that would also be correct in this very complex "debate"...

ted1

chopper6 wrote: »

An annual increment is not a pay increase...it's a progression through the salary scale.

its an increase in pay, and hence a pay increase. kop on its stupids comments like that, that cause the rivalry between the private and public sector

fliball123

chopper6 wrote: »

And soon it will be restored!

your deluded....and Noonan and has already said as much...If you want to believe in the spin from a Minister like Howlin whos party will be demolished if they dont pull a rabbit from the hat then go for it.

Just do the math..and ask the logical questions.
How much are we borrowing this year?
How much has the debt risen by?
How much will we cut/increase taxes in the budget?
Are the troika still looking over the shoulder?

I am tired of this argument just because 300k think l'oriel and that they are worth it , I am afraid that the tax payer in general can no longer afford your lifestyle choices? if you feel hard done by or that the ps is a bad deal for you..Feel free to find a new job.

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/noonan-no-room-for-public-sector-pay-increases-635251.html

fliball123

chopper6 wrote: »

So you reckon water charges are there to pay for "pay rises"??

Did I say that? I said our taxes were deemed enough up until this year to cover water ..now we need to pay more to get water and you think that 300k public sector workers will get additional pay rises on top of increments at a time when this imposition is being implemented?? REALLY

fliball123

chopper6 wrote: »

What about the amount the taxpayer had to pay for social welfare increases and the three paycuts the PS took to pay for the banking crises?

Small claw back considering ps pay rates more than doubled in the decade leading to the crash, 2 rounds of benchmarking. great perks, amazing pensions and a gaurenteed job for life, not to mention the 6/7 rounds of increments that have taken place since the crash in 2008.

Social welfare will have to come down as well and it is with numbers but I agree that should be cut again and make the gap between working and not working more attractive for working.

Gumbo

Idbatterim wrote: »

at least if PS get it, a large % goes back in direct taxes to government and the rest into the economy, with welfare if they give out a billion, they are getting far less back. With Ps if they give out a billion, you could be looking at what 40-50% coming straight back by it being deducted at source.

Also with comparisons between Irish and Uk, German PS rates. Isnt it the net pay rather than the gross that matters, the scandalous rates here make what appears at first glance to be very high salaries to be far more modest...

I.e say you were on 100k a year but income tax was 99%, would you say you were on 1k or 99k? I.e at which point due you start giving the net as the gross becomes so misleading due to the ridiculous rates here?

Now you could argue that they arent borrowing billions a year and that would also be correct in this very complex "debate"...

You also cannot argue IRL Pay V UK pay alone, there many many considerations to be taking into account such as what you get for your tax, property tax, how much it costs to run your car, have house insurance, life insurane (if any), cost of living etc etc

Some guy was on the radio last week saying we need to bring our PS pay rates in mine with EU average pay rates, thats fine, bring IRL cost of living into line with EU average cost of living too.

fliball123 wrote: »

2 rounds of increments. great perks, amazing pensions and a gaurenteed job for life, not to mention the 6/7 rounds of increments that have taken place since the crash in 2008.

This is where you show your true colours. Flaming rather than debating. Im surprised you have absconded for so long from this thread.
just as a matter of interest, can you highlight some of the bolded items please?

fliball123

chopper6 wrote: »

Of course...do you think the person should be on a starting wage forever?

I'd just love to know what job YOU have(if any).

No, but at the same time I dont think they should get a pay rise for the sake of a pay rise..some proper performance mechanism instead of the "we are all great lets increment" approach

fliball123

ardmacha wrote: »

When, exactly, was a proper honest evaluation done?



The legislation states that it is not a contribution, yet you keep on incessantly stating the opposite. I think you have a problem with reality. As for being before tax, does not any pay cut not reduce your before tax income? The government might be rapacious, but they don not tax you on income that you didn't get!

Benchmarking twice. I never said it was honest either.

Then why is it taken out before tax?

fliball123

Idbatterim wrote: »

at least if PS get it, a large % goes back in direct taxes to government and the rest into the economy, with welfare if they give out a billion, they are getting far less back. With Ps if they give out a billion, you could be looking at what 40-50% coming straight back by it being deducted at source.

Also with comparisons between Irish and Uk, German PS rates. Isnt it the net pay rather than the gross that matters, the scandalous rates here make what appears at first glance to be very high salaries to be far more modest...

I.e say you were on 100k a year but income tax was 99%, would you say you were on 1k or 99k? I.e at which point due you start giving the net as the gross becomes so misleading due to the ridiculous rates here?

Now you could argue that they arent borrowing billions a year and that would also be correct in this very complex "debate"...

My god you would swear the mighty 300k in the ps brought this country back from the brink all by itself..If there is any alleviation there should be a cut in USC ...Everyone gets a slice...and nothing should be happening until we are no longer borrowing

Monife

fliball123 wrote: »

your deluded....and Noonan and has already said as much...If you want to believe in the spin from a Minister like Howlin whos party will be demolished if they dont pull a rabbit from the hat then go for it.

Just do the math..and ask the logical questions.
How much are we borrowing this year?
How much has the debt risen by?
How much will we cut/increase taxes in the budget?
Are the troika still looking over the shoulder?

I am tired of this argument just because 300k think l'oriel and that they are worth it , I am afraid that the tax payer in general can no longer afford your lifestyle choices? if you feel hard done by or that the ps is a bad deal for you..Feel free to find a new job.

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/noonan-no-room-for-public-sector-pay-increases-635251.html

That article was published at the start of July...

fliball123

kceire wrote: »

You also cannot argue IRL Pay V UK pay alone, there many many considerations to be taking into account such as what you get for your tax, property tax, how much it costs to run your car, have house insurance, life insurane (if any), cost of living etc etc

Some guy was on the radio last week saying we need to bring our PS pay rates in mine with EU average pay rates, thats fine, bring IRL cost of living into line with EU average cost of living too.



This is where you show your true colours. Flaming rather than debating. Im surprised you have absconded for so long from this thread.
just as a matter of interest, can you highlight some of the bolded items please?

Wil you stop there has been numerous outrages claims of the 1200 different allowances it went down to 800 hundred and a promise of them being looked at with a lot of them been taken away..only 2 got cut.

You call it flaming..yet a large % of those in the private sector would love to have the above which you highlighted