Looting and Rioting in St. Louis (Merged)

Egginacup · 15-08-2014 02:51AM

blackwhite wrote: »

If you think that any of those armored personnel carriers are in any way comparable to a battle tank then you need to do a small bit of reading.

Thank fcuk for that. Everything is fine then.

The armoured, mine-resistant vehicles that are 10 tons in weight, have, in built, arsenals, SAW gun turrets and can drive through a house without the cops inside the vehicle feeling so much as a mouse fart are OK.

The fact that they don't have a 10 foot barrel pointing out the front means that it's all blue skies and lillipops.

Seems you are just fine with living in a police state.

I can't believe you are making excuses for community protection people not walking around the place but rather being in bomb-proof steel vehicles with helicopter gunships buzzing overhead.

That's how you want to live? Enjoy it.

Canis Lupus · 15-08-2014 03:01AM

Egginacup wrote: »

Thank fcuk for that. Everything is fine then.

The armoured, mine-resistant vehicles that are 10 tons in weight, have, in built, arsenals, SAW gun turrets and can drive through a house without the cops inside the vehicle feeling so much as a mouse fart are OK.

The fact that they don't have a 10 foot barrel pointing out the front means that it's all blue skies and lillipops.

Seems you are just fine with living in a police state.

I can't believe you are making excuses for community protection people not walking around the place but rather being in bomb-proof steel vehicles with helicopter gunships buzzing overhead.

That's how you want to live? Enjoy it.

If there was the potential to be shot at in your line of work would you rather be walking or in an armoured vehicle?

Killer Wench · 15-08-2014 03:43AM

Here's one of the eye witnesses. Her account contradicts what the police have released.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/13/tiffany-mitchell-michael-brown_n_5677003.html

Egginacup · 15-08-2014 03:54AM

Killer Wench wrote: »

The police are arresting the protesters in New York City.

http://new.livestream.com/JamesFromTheInternet/events/3277196

Christ!
What a bunch of saps. Why are Americans so weak in the face of tyranny. Beaten off the streets, disenfranchised, clubbed and not a SINGLE petrolbomb or even stone thrown at the cops who are cracking theirs skulls.

Palestinian kids the age of 10 have enough balls to throw rocks at soldiers with guns and tanks because they are being crushed. French students burn government buildings if you fcuk with their tuition fees. Irish teenagers in Belfast get out with Molotov cocktails and take on elite British paratroopers. But not these Americans. They just sit and take it.

Vaseline, anyone?

Manic Moran · 15-08-2014 06:22AM

RustyNut wrote: »

Would it not be in the greater good to let these guys off on their merry way in the first instance and then use intelligence and forensics led police work to catch up on the perpetrators later. Why risk a shootout under any circumstances?

Several reasons. 1. They had hostages. It would have been criminal of the police to let these guys go on their merry way and then do what they pleased with them. 2. They were out to kill someone. As mentioned, when the police did drop back, instead of going on their merry way, they decided to stop to set up an ambush. 3. Frankly, the success rate in identifying criminals is far higher when you don't lose sight of them to begin with.

Manic Moran · 15-08-2014 06:25AM

I am unsure that the merit of a society should be measured in proportion to the number of petrol bombs thrown. I don't recall Rosa Parks lobbing any Molotov cocktails.

I also seem to recall, when I was growing up, cash escort in Ireland being conducted with AML60 armored cars, with a 60mm gun/mortar, and twin 7.62mm machineguns. Interestingly, irish designed armoured cars are used by the Belgian police (BDX). Originally designed for the Irish Army (Timoney APC)

And if you think US police are heavily armoured, check out the French Gendarmes or Italian Carabinieri motor pools. At the extreme end, this Gendarme vehicle has a 90mm anti-tank cannon. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cc/VBC-90_mg_7761.jpg/640px-VBC-90_mg_7761.jpg

See also http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2011/aug/09/london-riots-police-armoured-vehicles

If you've not been aware of the variety of armoured vehicles available to emergency services around the world, that's your lookout

EyeSight · 15-08-2014 07:20AM

Egginacup wrote: »

Christ!
What a bunch of saps. Why are Americans so weak in the face of tyranny. Beaten off the streets, disenfranchised, clubbed and not a SINGLE petrolbomb or even stone thrown at the cops who are cracking theirs skulls.

Palestinian kids the age of 10 have enough balls to throw rocks at soldiers with guns and tanks because they are being crushed. French students burn government buildings if you fcuk with their tuition fees. Irish teenagers in Belfast get out with Molotov cocktails and take on elite British paratroopers. But not these Americans. They just sit and take it.

Vaseline, anyone?

what an idiotic post :rolleyes:
firstly Ireland is probably the most passive country around - just look at all the government has done in the past 4 years and the huge garda corruption scandals. We took it without much fuss.

secondly do not condone violence. It's so easy for you to sit at home telling people to throw petrol bombs. The fact that you compare this to what happens in Gaza shows you don't really know what you're talking about.

That link just showed some videos of a march so i didn't get much info. But from a quick Google(only article i found was on RT) i see that they only arrested people who were blocking traffic and refused to leave. In a congested city like NYC that's understandable. I've been to some protests in NYC which were huge, well organised, made a difference and nobody got hurt/arrested
I am 110% for the right to protest but do it right. It's like last year when those idiots tried to protest at the Dail and sat in rush hour traffic on Westmorland street

Tail Docker · 15-08-2014 09:11AM

porsche959 wrote: »

Well, it looks like that rumour has already been debunked.

But are you against any riot training for any police?

It strikes me there have been occasions in our own relatively recent past when it's been required:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lansdowne_Road_football_riot

Wut? Debunked? Go on then, give me a laugh, tell me how? Seeing as my Daughters husband did the course and was telling me all about it, but you give me your internetty version.

My name is URL · 15-08-2014 09:56AM

Military veterans see deeply flawed police response in Ferguson

Scriven King, a 10-year veteran of the U.S. Air Force’s law enforcement component and a SWAT officer, attributed the initial spasm of violence to a lack of leadership

“You see the police are standing online with bulletproof vests and rifles pointed at peoples chests,” said Jason Fritz, a former Army officer and an international policing operations analyst. “That’s not controlling the crowd, that’s intimidating them.”

“We went through some pretty bad areas of Afghanistan, but we didn’t wear that much gear,” said Kyle Dykstra, an Army veteran and former security officer for the State Department. Dykstra specifically pointed out the bulletproof armor the officers were wearing around their shoulders, known as “Deltoid” armor.

“I can’t think of a [protest] situation where the use of M4 [rifles] are merited,” Fritz said. “I don’t see it as a viable tactic in any scenario.”

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/checkpoint/wp/2014/08/14/military-veterans-see-deeply-flawed-police-response-in-ferguson/

St. Louis police chief says he does not support militarized tactics in Ferguson

The militarized police response to protests in Ferguson has driven a rare wedge between two forces that often work closely together – the two largest police departments in the area: the St. Louis Metropolitan Police Department and the St. Louis County Police.

St. Louis Police Chief Sam Dotson said in an interview this afternoon that he does not support the county police tactics in Ferguson, and has not sent officers to help them, aside from four officers to direct traffic.

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/article_b401feba-b49e-5b79-8926-19481191726f.html#.U-0DAFotxhg.twitter

Missouri Highway Patrol Captain Leads March In Ferguson: “When I see a young lady cry because of fear of this uniform, that’s a problem. We’ve got to solve that.”

But Thursday night, when more than a thousand protesters descended on the remains of QuickTrip – which was burned during riots on Sunday – they had a new leader.

The man at the front of the march, was Missouri Highway Patrol Capt. Ronald S. Johnson, a Ferguson native.

Not only did Johnson march with the protesters, but he vowed to not blockade the street, to set up a media staging center, and to ensure that residents’ rights to assemble and protest were not infringed upon. Officers working crowd control, he said, have been told they must take off their gas masks.

“When I see a young lady cry because of fear of this uniform, that’s a problem.” Johnson said. “We’ve got to solve that.”

And the difference from protests at similar times in the evening on Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday was massive. By this time on Wednesday, police had detained protesters, by this point on Monday officers had begun deploying tear-gas canisters at residents who would not disperse.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2014/08/14/with-highway-patrol-hugs-and-kisses-replace-tear-gas-in-ferguson/

Reekwind · 15-08-2014 10:39AM

Manic Moran wrote: »

And if you think US police are heavily armoured, check out the French Gendarmes or Italian Carabinieri motor pools. At the extreme end, this Gendarme vehicle has a 90mm anti-tank cannon. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cc/VBC-90_mg_7761.jpg/640px-VBC-90_mg_7761.jpg

Um, that'd be because a gendarmerie is, almost by definition, a military force. In both France and Italy they are part of the armed forces, not civilian policing authorities. They are soldiers who act as policemen, the seeming opposite to the US.

MRnotlob606 · 15-08-2014 10:41AM

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

misleading much?
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/08/10/black-teen-fatal-shooting-by-police-in-missouri-prompts-calls-for-federal/?intcmp=latestnews

Still a bit OTT sounding but at least mention that the victim had a go at the cop first, hardly totally innocent.

oh yeah so shoot him dead ? never fails to amaze me how cruel and vicious people can be on this, he was an 18 year old who was unarmed ! if that happened here he wouldn't be dead .

donegal__road · 15-08-2014 11:21AM

Just saw this on Facebook...

order the demilitarization of local police forces in cities in the United States of America.

jimgoose · 15-08-2014 11:29AM

Sometimes it works well the other way about. On May 24th 1954, Eisenhower deployed the 101st Airborne to Little Rock, Arkansas to enforce desegregation at the local high-school.

Manic Moran · 15-08-2014 11:40AM

Reekwind wrote: »

Um, that'd be because a gendarmerie is, almost by definition, a military force. In both France and Italy they are part of the armed forces, not civilian policing authorities. They are soldiers who act as policemen, the seeming opposite to the US.

That's the point, though, isn't it? They are heavily militaristic but were raised to perform a policing function. If they wanted something for combat operations, both Italy and France have perfectly reasonable armies. (And Spain, and Netherlands, and any other nations in Europe with Gendarmeries.)

Incidentally, the Air Force officer wants to check his local State's rules for arming the National Guard for civil disorder duty. California's has it written in the SOP that standard equipment is rifle, ammunition and bayonet. Though, granted, Missouri hasn't gotten to the point of calling out the Guard yet.

Reekwind · 15-08-2014 12:29PM

Manic Moran wrote: »

That's the point, though, isn't it? They are heavily militaristic but were raised to perform a policing function. If they wanted something for combat operations, both Italy and France have perfectly reasonable armies. (And Spain, and Netherlands, and any other nations in Europe with Gendarmeries.)

Let's not confuse 'militaristic' with 'military'. The gendarmeries are military organisations that happen to have some policing functions. There's a world of difference between that and a civilian force that increasingly finds itself acting like soldiers. Gendarmes are provided with military equipment because they are expected to play a military role if needed (but this is not for routine use in police situations). The nearest US equivalent is the Military Police Corps.

Secondly, both the French and Italian gendarmeries have fairly strictly set jurisdictions (often geographic). Where they gendarmerie is employed as a police force they follow the same procedures/rules as the civilian force. In neither case is the gendarmerie considered to be just a more heavily armed version of the police - eg, the equivalent of a SWAT team in France is not the Gendarmerie but the National Police's GIPN and RAID teams. For example, if you happen to see a 'policeman' with a machine gun in Paris then it's more likely that they are CRS (ie civilian) than Gendarmerie.

The upshot of this is that there is little blurring of the lines between the military and civilian functions. Police (or gendarmes on civilian duty) are not authorised to employ military tactics and weaponry outside of set circumstances. Conversely, there is little militarisation of civilian police procedures and equipment. It's a historical quirk that these countries have both police and paramilitary forces but this does not filter down to street level as it does in the US.

Incidentally, the Air Force officer wants to check his local State's rules for arming the National Guard for civil disorder duty. California's has it written in the SOP that standard equipment is rifle, ammunition and bayonet. Though, granted, Missouri hasn't gotten to the point of calling out the Guard yet.

Which is reasonable: in the case of major riots or disturbances the National Guard is available. In the past that is exactly what would have happened when things got serious - there is certainly precedent for deploying soldiers to American streets.

What you currently have is myriad civilian police organisations that are heavily armed with military-grade equipment and without the inherent mission limitations that comes with deploying armed soldiers. Which is a lot more worrying. So the issue is not armoured cars on the streets but that the use of such equipment by civilian forces has become almost routine.

Little CuChulainn · 15-08-2014 02:19PM

Egginacup wrote: »

Christ!
What a bunch of saps. Why are Americans so weak in the face of tyranny. Beaten off the streets, disenfranchised, clubbed and not a SINGLE petrolbomb or even stone thrown at the cops who are cracking theirs skulls.

Palestinian kids the age of 10 have enough balls to throw rocks at soldiers with guns and tanks because they are being crushed. French students burn government buildings if you fcuk with their tuition fees. Irish teenagers in Belfast get out with Molotov cocktails and take on elite British paratroopers. But not these Americans. They just sit and take it.

Vaseline, anyone?

One of the most idiotic posts I've read on Boards.ie to date. You are equating a police shooting to occupations like N.I. in the 70's and present day Palestine and trying to use them to justify attempts to murder police officers. Here you are expressing violent psychopathic tendencies and trying to pass them off as some quest for justice.

I mean, what exactly happened in Ferguson. A black kid was shot by a white cop. A tragedy no doubt. But it was one cop shooting one person. Hardly indicative of a police force that deserves to be murdered. I look at all those protestors would there signs like "Justic Denied" and have to ask what kind of justice they want. I mean, they were out within 24 hours claiming a coverup and demanding justice. There is only one kind of justice that can be dispensed within 24 hours and it is completely the opposite to what hypocrites like you claim to be seeking.

Tail Docker wrote: »

Wut? Debunked? Go on then, give me a laugh, tell me how? Seeing as my Daughters husband did the course and was telling me all about it, but you give me your internetty version.

Your daughters husband is full of **** if he told you any of that. He may very well have gotten trained but he'd only be a replacement for someone who left. But basically your whole post was completely fabricated, either by you or him.

Little CuChulainn · 15-08-2014 04:21PM

Turns out it wasn't some innocent black kid shot by a racist cop. It was a guy on his way back from robbing a convenience store and roughing up the clerk.

http://www.thejournal.ie/ferguson-missouri-shooting-police-officer-identified-1622259-Aug2014/

Nodin · 15-08-2014 04:26PM

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Turns out it wasn't some innocent black kid shot by a racist cop. It was a guy on his way back from robbing a convenience store and roughing up the clerk.

http://www.thejournal.ie/ferguson-missouri-shooting-police-officer-identified-1622259-Aug2014/

In a further revelation, however, Jackson said Brown had been suspected of
stealing cigars and pushing a convenience store worker earlier on the day he was
shot dead by Wilson

Yeah, clearly he's 'guilty' and needed shooting, otherwise no box of cigars would be safe
http://www.thejournal.ie/ferguson-missouri-shooting-police-officer-identified-1622259-Aug2014/

Little CuChulainn · 15-08-2014 04:36PM

Nodin wrote: »

Yeah, clearly he's 'guilty' and needed shooting, otherwise no box of cigars would be safe

Still trying to put words in peoples mouths I see.

Incidentally, a robber is a robber no matter how successful his haul. The effect on the victim is exactly the same.

ForstalDave · 15-08-2014 04:43PM

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Still trying to put words in peoples mouths I see.

Incidentally, a robber is a robber no matter how successful his haul. The effect on the victim is exactly the same.

I don't think the issue is his crime but the force used to subdue him, if he was shot once in the scuffle with the police officer fair enough but he continued to shot him when he was on the ground wherein the issue lies.

The change in police tactics with the highway patrol shows that cracking down on protesters in cases like this is not the only way to manage these situations and certainly indicates its not the best

Little CuChulainn · 15-08-2014 04:47PM

ForstalDave wrote: »

I don't think the issue is his crime but the force used to subdue him, if he was shot once in the scuffle with the police officer fair enough but he continued to shot him when he was on the ground wherein the issue lies.

The change in police tactics with the highway patrol shows that cracking down on protesters in cases like this is not the only way to manage these situations and certainly indicates its not the best

The main witness account is from his accomplice. I think I'll wait for a more forensic report before I make a judgement on the policemans actions.

InTheTrees · 15-08-2014 04:48PM

Pretty interesting developments over the last few days.

The lunatic militarization of police with 2nd hand iraq war gear has been now shown to be utterly counter productive. All thanks to the morons at Ferguson PD.

I would imagine this will mean a drastic change in police tactics around the country.

Grudaire · 15-08-2014 04:49PM

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Turns out it wasn't some innocent black kid shot by a racist cop. It was a guy on his way back from robbing a convenience store and roughing up the clerk.

http://www.thejournal.ie/ferguson-missouri-shooting-police-officer-identified-1622259-Aug2014/

I'm glad that things have cooled down and truth can begin to emerge.

I get that Michael Brown isn't a total Angel, but I'm not sure you've taken the right message from this extra piece of news.

This happened hours before he was shot, and it is still alleged. In the meantime there's no evidence that paints the local police as anything but heavy handed, shooting an unarmed person isn't justified, neither had the response since then.

The fact that tensions eased when new police took over shows this.

ForstalDave · 15-08-2014 04:53PM

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

The main witness account is from his accomplice. I think I'll wait for a more forensic report before I make a judgement on the policemans actions.

I think there are enough witnesses to assure that there was some issues with the shooting, i don't believe a police force should investigate its own officers and the fact that another force has taken over will hopefully give to a clearer picture. The fact is this was handled badly by both sides, the protesters resorted top violence which is not the answer but the police where also very heavy handed and made a number of illegal arrest(2 journalists plenty of witnesses)

Little CuChulainn · 15-08-2014 04:56PM

Grudaire wrote: »

I'm glad that things have cooled down and truth can begin to emerge.

I get that Michael Brown isn't a total Angel, but I'm not sure you've taken the right message from this extra piece of news.

This happened hours before he was shot, and it is still alleged. In the meantime there's no evidence that paints the local police as anything but heavy handed, shooting an unarmed person isn't justified, neither had the response since then.

The fact that tensions eased when new police took over shows this.

If he was a violent thug who attacked the cop and then tried to run then I have no issue with him being shot. If he had gotten away he probably would have gone on to rob or assault someone else. If he was shot on the ground then that is another matter and not justified at all.

Killer Wench · 15-08-2014 04:59PM

Stealing $40 of cigars and pushing a clerk do not rise to the level of shooting six or more shots into someone surrendering.

Grudaire · 15-08-2014 05:02PM

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

If he was a violent thug who attacked the cop and then tried to run then I have no issue with him being shot. If he had gotten away he probably would have gone on to rob or assault someone else. If he was shot on the ground then that is another matter and not justified at all.

I love how many negative assumptions you have managed to make on the deceased, and none on the cop involved!

RustyNut · 15-08-2014 05:02PM

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

If he was a violent thug who attacked the cop and then tried to run then I have no issue with him being shot. If he had gotten away he probably would have gone on to rob or assault someone else. If he was shot on the ground then that is another matter and not justified at all.

Even tho he posed no actual threat to anyone as he ran away? Shoot him because he might pose some hypothetical threat to some possible person at some stage in the future, really?

Grudaire · 15-08-2014 05:03PM

RustyNut wrote: »

Even tho he posed no actual threat to anyone as he ran away? Shoot him because he might pose some hypothetical threat to some possible person at some stage in the future, really?

Minority report style :cool:

Peppa Cig · 15-08-2014 05:05PM

InTheTrees wrote: »

Pretty interesting developments over the last few days.

The lunatic militarization of police with 2nd hand iraq war gear has been now shown to be utterly counter productive. All thanks to the morons at Ferguson PD.

I would imagine this will mean a drastic change in police tactics around the country.

Drastic change around the country????
Have you ever seen the size of usa on a map?

Looting and Rioting in St. Louis (Merged)

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