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Looting and Rioting in St. Louis (Merged)

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    #152
    Akrasia
    Registered Users Posts: 22,242 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    Maximus Alexander wrote: »
    F*cking hell, they look like something out of a dystopian movie or video game.
    or this one battlefield-hardline-leaked-trailer-reveals-multiplayer-modes-new-gadgets-bank-heists-more.jpg


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    #153
    Dravokivich
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,360 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    My name is URL wrote: »
    Nobody is forcing anybody to read about it.. and you could say the same thing about anything else going on in the world that doesn't affect you directly =/

    Well, you kind of did force him to read it. You posted links and all you said is something is happening with no indication of what it was. We had to follow the links and read it to find out.


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    #154
    Killer Wench
    Registered Users Posts: 2,386 ✭✭✭Killer Wench


    I created a thread on this a few days ago. Its already 9 pages.


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    #155
    Ush1
    Registered Users Posts: 11,461 ✭✭✭✭Ush1


    Boom_Bap wrote: »
    Anonymous have tracked down the officer (who has been put on leave) who shot Michael Brown. They are releasing his name, photo and address later today unless the Fergusson PD provide details on the incident.

    Scumbag thing to do, no investigation done. Anonymous weren't democratically elected and are trying to act as judge and jury.


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    #156
    eamonnq
    Registered Users Posts: 4,009 ✭✭✭eamonnq


    MS.ing wrote: »
    mo?

    Monaghan ?


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    #157
    RobbingBandit
    Registered Users Posts: 18,092 ✭✭✭✭RobbingBandit


    MO, Murica Obviously...


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    #158
    Ush1
    Registered Users Posts: 11,461 ✭✭✭✭Ush1


    Boom_Bap wrote: »
    I've been following what has been going on since the weekend.

    To sum it up:
    1. Michael Brown had some altercation with the police
    2. He stood unarmed with his hands in the air
    3. Police shot him reportedly 9 times (this is not officially confirmed by the department)
    4. A crowd gathered and were in shock
    5. The police called for backup and the riot squad before reporting the officer involved shooting, before calling for an ambulance.
    6. The police left the body lying on the middle of the street and focused on controlling the crowd.
    7. The press reports this as rioting and looting.
    8. Protests continue until today
    9. The police are using unnecessary force against the protesters and are arbitrarily arresting people. They made the mistake of arresting 2 reporters who were 'tresspassing' in McDonalds yesterday and then let them go without any charges or explanation as to why they were arrested.
    10. Protests are being organised in every major city

    This is happening all too frequently in the USA. A movie called Fruitvale Station was released last year documenting something similar with the shooting of Oscar Grant which is worth watching, it's supossedly extremely accurate.
    There was also a man choked and killed by NYPD a few weeks ago, and not to forget other incidents such as Rodney King etc.

    I had read he was in a physical altercation with them where a shot was fired within the police car?


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    #159
    WilyCoyote
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,059 ✭✭✭WilyCoyote


    The_Minister wrote: »
    Why should they release the individual cops name before they've had a chance to investigate what happened?

    Some versions of events are that the cop was attacked and there was a struggle for the pistol.

    Is it fair to feed him to the mob before we know if he's done anything wrong?
    No good can come from naming him; finish the preliminary investigation and release his identity in context.

    Oops, sorry. Must be in the wrong thread. I was under the impression that he murdered someone.
    Or, perhaps, the definition of murder takes on the tableau of moveable feast when state sponsored.


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    #160
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Arresting reporters now - all very classy.

    "In Ferguson, Washington Post reporter Wesley Lowery gives account of his arrest"
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/in-ferguson-washington-post-reporter-wesley-lowery-gives-account-of-his-arrest/2014/08/13/0fe25c0e-2359-11e4-86ca-6f03cbd15c1a_story.html?hpid=z1


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    #161
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 3,518 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Dravokivich wrote: »
    Well, you kind of did force him to read it. You posted links and all you said is something is happening with no indication of what it was. We had to follow the links and read it to find out.

    So his curiosity forced him to read it...


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    #162
    Boom_Bap
    Moderators, Music Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,730 Mod ✭✭✭✭Boom_Bap


    Ush1 wrote: »
    I had read he was in a physical altercation with them where a shot was fired within the police car?

    The most common story from eye witnesses is that there was no struggle and was unarmed. He was also a good distance away from the car where the shots were fired from.

    I would tend to believe this given what has sparked from it.

    I also firmly believe there is more that is not being told in the lead up to the shooting......but whatever happened, not enough justification to shoot an unarmed man 9 times.


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    #163
    My name is URL
    Registered Users Posts: 25,067 ✭✭✭✭My name is URL


    TV crews hit by bean bags, tear gas

    http://www.ksdk.com/story/news/local/2014/08/14/crews-hit-with-bean-bags-tear-gas/14042747/

    wtf like.. If that was happening in Egypt or Syria Obama would be coming out and condemning it


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    #164
    Ush1
    Registered Users Posts: 11,461 ✭✭✭✭Ush1


    WilyCoyote wrote: »
    Oops, sorry. Must be in the wrong thread. I was under the impression that he murdered someone.
    Or, perhaps, the definition of murder takes on the tableau of moveable feast when state sponsored.

    Someone is a murderer when they are convicted in a court.


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    #165
    Reekwind
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,126 ✭✭✭Reekwind


    The_Minister wrote: »
    No good can come from naming him; finish the preliminary investigation and release his identity in context.
    So the police are to complete an investigation into police misconduct at their leisure and then release their official version of events? Meanwhile, everyone else affected (ie the victim's family and the local community) are supposed to wait patiently without any information while the police compile their version of events?

    No. As the London riots of 2011 showed, a key factor in the triggering of unrest is the failure by the police to effectively communicate to and inform the community when something like this does happen. As it is, it's been almost five days since the shooting and we still do not have a clear picture as to what happened or who was involved.


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    #166
    Maximus Alexander
    Registered Users Posts: 13,080 ✭✭✭✭Maximus Alexander


    Ush1 wrote: »
    Someone is a murderer when they are convicted in a court.

    No, then they're a convicted murderer. They're a murderer right after they murder someone.


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    #167
    Ush1
    Registered Users Posts: 11,461 ✭✭✭✭Ush1


    Boom_Bap wrote: »
    The most common story from eye witnesses is that there was no struggle and was unarmed. He was also a good distance away from the car where the shots were fired from.

    I would tend to believe this given what has sparked from it.

    I also firmly believe there is more that is not being told in the lead up to the shooting......but whatever happened, not enough justification to shoot an unarmed man 9 times.

    I don't tend to believe anything just yet.


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    #168
    Ush1
    Registered Users Posts: 11,461 ✭✭✭✭Ush1


    Maximus Alexander wrote: »
    No, then they're a convicted murderer. They're a murderer right after they murder someone.

    We are talking about the law are we not? So if the officer was shot at an then shot back and killed someone would he be a murderer? Or a sniper in hostage situation?

    Or is this just a pointless semantic argument?


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    #169
    Maximus Alexander
    Registered Users Posts: 13,080 ✭✭✭✭Maximus Alexander


    Ush1 wrote: »
    We are talking about the law are we not? So if the officer was shot at an then shot back and killed someone would he be a murderer? Or a sniper in hostage situation?

    Or is this just a pointless semantic argument?

    I'm not sure that it is pointless semantics, since you're using the notion that in order to be a murderer one must be convicted as an argument against making threats, as a means to provoke an explanation, against someone who appears to be getting away with murder with no explanation forthcoming.

    The above sentence is unwieldy and I apologise for that.

    I don't necessarily disagree with your point of view, just the way you chose to argue it.


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    #170
    WilyCoyote
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,059 ✭✭✭WilyCoyote


    Ush1 wrote: »
    Someone is a murderer when they are convicted in a court.

    Sooooo. You're a murderer if you murder someone, are caught and convicted. But if you murder someone and are not caught ......... you're not a murderer. Sounds like The Robert Mugabe School of Law to me


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    #171
    Ush1
    Registered Users Posts: 11,461 ✭✭✭✭Ush1


    Maximus Alexander wrote: »
    I'm not sure that it is pointless semantics, since you're using the notion that in order to be a murderer one must be convicted as an argument against making threats, as a means to provoke an explanation, against someone who appears to be getting away with murder with no explanation forthcoming.

    The above sentence is unwieldy and I apologise for that.

    I don't necessarily disagree with your point of view, just the way you chose to argue it.

    I'm not sure what you're trying to say exactly. You either support mob justice or the democratic process?

    What good will come of releasing that information and who give Anonymous the right to do such a thing?


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    #172
    Maximus Alexander
    Registered Users Posts: 13,080 ✭✭✭✭Maximus Alexander


    Ush1 wrote: »
    I'm not sure what you're trying to say exactly. You either support mob justice or the democratic process?

    What good will come of releasing that information and who give Anonymous the right to do such a thing?

    What I'm getting at is that your argument against mob justice was a poor one, whether or not I support it.


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    #173
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,465 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    WilyCoyote wrote: »
    Sooooo. You're a murderer if you murder someone, are caught and convicted. But if you murder someone and are not caught ......... you're not a murderer. Sounds like The Robert Mugabe School of Law to me

    I am sure there is some legal definition, As soldiers, armed police and so on have to follow certain rules.


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    #174
    Reekwind
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,126 ✭✭✭Reekwind


    Ush1 wrote: »
    What good will come of releasing that information...
    You mean aside from letting the boy's parents know who killed their son and helping the community piece together what actually happened?


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    #175
    Ush1
    Registered Users Posts: 11,461 ✭✭✭✭Ush1


    WilyCoyote wrote: »
    Sooooo. You're a murderer if you murder someone, are caught and convicted. But if you murder someone and are not caught ......... you're not a murderer. Sounds like The Robert Mugabe School of Law to me

    Ah, so a murder is a murder is a murder right?

    So why do we have first degree, second degree, third degree murder? Manslaughter, involuntary manslaughter etc..?

    And categories of homicide such as felonious, accidental, justifiable, and praiseworthy.


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    #176
    Billy86
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,495 ✭✭✭✭Billy86


    Ush1 wrote: »
    I'm not sure what you're trying to say exactly. You either support mob justice or the democratic process?

    What good will come of releasing that information and who give Anonymous the right to do such a thing?
    The issue is that the democratic process has been sh at all over in recent times, and I expect the Zimmerman case has had a fairly big role to play in the backlash we have seen in the last few days.


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    #177
    Ush1
    Registered Users Posts: 11,461 ✭✭✭✭Ush1


    Maximus Alexander wrote: »
    What I'm getting at is that your argument against mob justice was a poor one, whether or not I support it.

    Why was it poor exactly? It was actually you who started a semantic argument on the definitions of a murderer. Murder is a legal term.


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    #178
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,465 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    Problem is in cases like this.

    1. Release information straight away, that could put suspect as at fault.

    You would get people screaming not enough time and demand an investigation.

    2. Take time to do a full investigation, that could put either at fault or none.

    You get people screaming taking to long, and cover up.

    What are they supposed to do ?


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    #179
    Maximus Alexander
    Registered Users Posts: 13,080 ✭✭✭✭Maximus Alexander


    Ush1 wrote: »
    Why was it poor exactly? It was actually you who started a semantic argument on the definitions of a murderer. Murder is a legal term.

    It's poor because if someone is saying "This guy is a murderer and we have no faith in the judicial process to do anything about it" and your response is "He's not a murderer because the judicial process hasn't found him to be guilty" then there is no worthwhile dialogue happening, you're not going to get through to anyone, and it's a completely pointless statement in that context.

    You started the semantic argument with the line "Someone is a murderer when they are convicted in a court."


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    #180
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    Whitey at it again I see!


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    #181
    Reekwind
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,126 ✭✭✭Reekwind


    Ush1 wrote: »
    Why was it poor exactly? It was actually you who started a semantic argument on the definitions of a murderer. Murder is a legal term.
    Ugh. Let's do a very simple thought experiment.

    I murder a man. Kill him stone dead with an axe in the back of the neck. I steal his wallet and move on. Yet I get away with the crime. I am not arrested, I do not go to court, I am not found guilty of the crime of murder. I die in bed many years later having never being charged with a single crime. Am I a murderer?

    But let's add another dimension:

    Another man is charged with the murder that I committed. He's in the wrong place at the wrong time and is arrested. He is incorrectly found guilty in a court of law and sentenced to life in prison for murder. Yet he has never killed anyone. Is he a murderer?

    According to your legalistic logic, which denies murder as an exclusively 'legal term' I'm not a murderer and the other man is. Is that correct?


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