Looting and Rioting in St. Louis (Merged)

Egginacup · 14-08-2014 04:49PM

blackwhite wrote: »

So you think an unidentifiable group of people online posting the name of who they THINK is responsible, and sending a lynch mob around is preferable?

The justice system isn't perfect, and mistakes will happen.

I'd still much prefer what we have to a system where an unidentifiable person with access to a computer posts up a name and address, and the mob goes and strings them up.

Nobody's going to string him up. Stop exaggerating. By now this cop is under armed guard somewhere. I doubt he's walking the dog in the park.

blackwhite · 14-08-2014 04:54PM

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

I never said I supported Anonymous' actions nor did I defend the posting of inaccurate information which if true is a disgrace. I merely outlined why it's happening. People are turning to such means because they have lost faith in the justice system to hold cops criminally liable for assaulting civilians.

That's where we differ. You regard these cases as mistakes, I personally regard them as a poisonous deference to authority which carries the mindset that the cops can do no wrong. The same sh!te happened here in the early months of 2014 and we all know where that led us.

Come on, you have to admit that when repeated, documented and filmed cases of obvious police brutality are not resulting in any cops serving jail time, it has to be viewed not just as a series of mistakes but as a series of deliberate blind eyes being turned to cops who break the law. They are not "mistakes", they are the result of a cultural immunity granted to certain sections of society, and until that changes, vigilantes - whether justified or not - will continue to exist and will continue to be supported by vast swathes of people who believe there is no one else to turn to.

And I would agree with you, but consider for a moment if you were a relative of this guy and you knew that his death was the latest in a series of such incidents with an almost 100% guarantee of the perpetrator getting away without any punishment whatsoever - both of us, in that scenario, might feel a little differently.

And this is why people who are emotionally attached to a case shouldn't be the ones who decide what is, or isn't, justice.

Put it this way, how would you feel was your family member who was being accused as being the perpetrator by an unidentifiable person on the internet, and a lynch mob on the internet?
Anyone with a computer can claim to be part of, or representing anonymous at this stage. It could just as easily be a kid in their bedroom looking to settle a grudge as it is actually some genuine activists who have obtained the details of the person responsible.
It won't really matter to the lynch-mob though.

There's a large section of society who will always take the default position of the police/gardai are in the wrong, regardless of the facts/circumstances.
In this case it looks likely that the police officer was in the wrong, but until there has been an investigation then the facts are not clear. There's plenty of conflicting versions of the events being aired, yet the lynch mob is only interested in the one that they want to hear.

The USA does seem to have a problem with incidents of police brutality, and with how these are dealt with within the justice system. What's needed is for people to elect judges and policitians who are interested in forcing police forces to do somethign other than "circle the wagons" when incidents like this occur.

I fail to see how rioting, looting, or lynching someone without a trial do anything to fix the problems.

blackwhite · 14-08-2014 04:56PM

Egginacup wrote: »

Nobody's going to string him up. Stop exaggerating. By now this cop is under armed guard somewhere. I doubt he's walking the dog in the park.

Then what exactly is the purpose of the threat to release his address? So someone sends him a stongly worded letter.

BTW, of all people to complain about "exaggerating", you aren't exactly the best placed.

hatrickpatrick · 14-08-2014 05:07PM

blackwhite wrote: »

And this is why people who are emotionally attached to a case shouldn't be the ones who decide what is, or isn't, justice.

I fundamentally disagree with this, but this is a difference of opinion which no amount of debating will overcome so let's agree to disagree.

Put it this way, how would you feel was your family member who was being accused as being the perpetrator by an unidentifiable person on the internet, and a lynch mob on the internet?
Anyone with a computer can claim to be part of, or representing anonymous at this stage. It could just as easily be a kid in their bedroom looking to settle a grudge as it is actually some genuine activists who have obtained the details of the person responsible.
It won't really matter to the lynch-mob though.

Re-read my original post wherein I stated very clearly that I was not defending the release of incorrect information - that is deplorable.

There's a large section of society who will always take the default position of the police/gardai are in the wrong, regardless of the facts/circumstances.

And they're just as bad as those who always claim they're in the right. But when you have video of evidence of very obvious police brutality such as in Fullterton or during Occupy and, not once but on an ongoing, repeated basis no one is being convicted or jailed, it becomes very obvious that there's a serious breakdown in the justice system.

In this case it looks likely that the police officer was in the wrong, but until there has been an investigation then the facts are not clear. There's plenty of conflicting versions of the events being aired, yet the lynch mob is only interested in the one that they want to hear.

There are indeed several versions of the incident going around, but not a single one would have justified killing somebody. Killing is never ok unless one's life is directly threatened. None of the versions going around have suggested that this was the case.

The USA does seem to have a problem with incidents of police brutality, and with how these are dealt with within the justice system. What's needed is for people to elect judges and policitians who are interested in forcing police forces to do somethign other than "circle the wagons" when incidents like this occur.

Agreed.

I fail to see how rioting, looting, or lynching someone without a trial do anything to fix the problems.

What it might do is scare the sh!t out of the powers that be enough to ensure that the next time something like this happens, it will be properly dealt with as opposed to being whitewashed?

blackwhite · 14-08-2014 05:19PM

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Re-read my original post wherein I stated very clearly that I was not defending the release of incorrect information - that is deplorable.

And that's where I have a major issue with this effort at "mob justice" from the people claiming to be part of Anonymous.
How exactly do you verify that they have names the correct person or not? The mob won't stop and do some fact checking.

Somebody, claiming to be part of Anonymous, claims that they have a name and address. How do we know that the name is the correct person - we don't. How do we know the person claiming to be part of Anonymous isn't just some kid with a grudge - we don't.
They release the name and address to the public then you can guarantee a mob will gather at that address, and who knows what will happen then.
If it turns out that the wrong person was identified then it'll be too late at that point, but the mod will have satisfied it's blood-lust.

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

And they're just as bad as those who always claim they're in the right. But when you have video of evidence of very obvious police brutality such as in Fullterton or during Occupy and, not once but on an ongoing, repeated basis no one is being convicted or jailed, it becomes very obvious that there's a serious breakdown in the justice system.

I don't believe that the problem is nearly as endemic as people like to make out, but yes, a problem exists. Looting some poor Asian man's corner shop isn't the way to address it though.

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

What it might do is scare the sh!t out of the powers that be enough to ensure that the next time something like this happens, it will be properly dealt with as opposed to being whitewashed?

I severely doubt that looting from some Asian convenience stores is going to scare the powers that be.

hatrickpatrick · 14-08-2014 05:29PM

blackwhite wrote: »

And that's where I have a major issue with this effort at "mob justice" from the people claiming to be part of Anonymous.
How exactly do you verify that they have names the correct person or not? The mob won't stop and do some fact checking.

Then maybe the department should release the name as they originally promised to do, to clear up any speculation.
Again, I'm not defending Anon's actions, for the third time. I'm merely saying I understand why it happened, and in my view the fault lies with the cops for going back on their word.

They release the name and address to the public then you can guarantee a mob will gather at that address, and who knows what will happen then.
If it turns out that the wrong person was identified then it'll be too late at that point, but the mod will have satisfied it's blood-lust.

Agreed, which is why, for the bajillionth time, I'm not defending or endorsing the release of unverified information about anybody. Why are you arguing as if I have taken up a contrary position to yours? We're both in agreement that nobody should be releasing unverifiable information. We differ on the release of verified information, but that's irrelevant as that has not happened. In this event, we agree that whoever did it was a tool. So why argue as if we disagree?

I don't believe that the problem is nearly as endemic as people like to make out, but yes, a problem exists.

Have a look at archives of Occupy protests being policed and come back and say it's not endemic. I can link you to a video of a raid on a suspected pot user's house in which a fully armoured SWAT team consisting of at least a dozen people broke down his door in the middle of the night and shot his two dogs, before discovering no evidence whatsoever of any drugs. This seems to have become a regular occurrence, where people suspected of minor offenses are raided with an armed force that would give the impression the target was a member of Al Qaeda rather than a pot smoker. The American police are completely out of control.

Looting some poor Asian man's corner shop isn't the way to address it though.

Agreed. Targeted rioting would be far more effective. Looting is both wrong and pointless.

I severely doubt that looting from some Asian convenience stores is going to scare the powers that be.

Again agreed. It's misdirected rage.

My name is URL · 14-08-2014 05:33PM

blackwhite wrote: »

I severely doubt that looting from some Asian convenience stores is going to scare the powers that be.

Maybe the footage being beamed around the world of police attacking journalists and stealing their equipment will be enough to 'scare' the powers that be :rolleyes:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bu_GdSDCQAIXUGf.jpg

You seem to be doing your best to downplay the actions of police while focusing all of your attention on what Anon or a handful of looters are doing.

Egginacup · 14-08-2014 05:36PM

blackwhite wrote: »

Then what exactly is the purpose of the threat to release his address? So someone sends him a stongly worded letter.

BTW, of all people to complain about "exaggerating", you aren't exactly the best placed.

What do you mean? What am I exaggerating about?

The powers that be release names of suspects all the time and suspects who are far more likely to incur the wrath of a mob than a cop would.

Good old Rolfie the sex offender springs to mind.

Egginacup · 14-08-2014 05:42PM

blackwhite wrote: »

Then what exactly is the purpose of the threat to release his address? So someone sends him a stongly worded letter.

BTW, of all people to complain about "exaggerating", you aren't exactly the best placed.

I would agree with you on principle that witholding the cop's identity for his own protection is the prudent thing to do. BUT, the police in the US have demonstrated time and again that they can't be trusted to act with transparency nor within the public interest. They investigate themselves when it gets too hot in the kitchen and routinely deliver a whitewash.

They have relinquished all privilege of being given trust or the benefit of the doubt.
So even now if their motives are altruistic they have acted beyond contempt so often that it makes no difference.

blackwhite · 14-08-2014 05:50PM

Egginacup wrote: »

What do you mean? What am I exaggerating about?

Claiming that there will soon be Abrams battles tanks on the street.
Claiming that, 50% of the time, police raids target the wrong address.

But don't worry, you managed to shoe-horn your Putin reference earlier in the thread in case anyone had forgotten what your real agenda here is.

blackwhite · 14-08-2014 05:55PM

My name is URL wrote: »

Maybe the footage being beamed around the world of police attacking journalists and stealing their equipment will be enough to 'scare' the powers that be :rolleyes:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bu_GdSDCQAIXUGf.jpg

You seem to be doing your best to downplay the actions of police while focusing all of your attention on what Anon or a handful of looters are doing.

I'm not trying to downplay any of the police's actions in this incident. It appears to be a case of one police officer taking a shoot first, think later policy; followed by a fairly crap response to rioting.
Still though, plenty on this thread seem to want a mob-justice, execution without trial.

None of what the police appear to have done justifies rioting, looting or bandying unverified names/addresses about online - all actions that you seem quite eager to downplay.

Billy86 · 14-08-2014 05:59PM

blackwhite wrote: »

Claiming that there will soon be Abrams battles tanks on the street.
Claiming that, 50% of the time, police raids target the wrong address.

But don't worry, you managed to shoe-horn your Putin reference earlier in the thread in case anyone had forgotten what your real agenda here is.

They're not too far off the first one already to be fair, now are they?

blackwhite · 14-08-2014 06:01PM

Billy86 wrote: »

They're not too far off the first one already to be fair, now are they?

If you think that any of those armored personnel carriers are in any way comparable to a battle tank then you need to do a small bit of reading.

Billy86 · 14-08-2014 06:07PM

blackwhite wrote: »

If you think that any of those armored personnel carriers are in any way comparable to a battle tank then you need to do a small bit of reading.

And yet if you told people not too long ago that the police would be going around in them, you would be told you were exaggerating.

And some more.

If the public don't trust these guys with a single pistol at their disposal, imagine how they feel about them rocking around in those things.

RustyNut · 14-08-2014 06:10PM

Billy86 wrote: »

And yet if you told people not too long ago that the police would be going around in them, you would be told you were exaggerating.

And some more.

If the public don't trust these guys with a single pistol at their disposal, imagine how they feel about them rocking around in those things.

Yay, America the land of the free.

Free to do what "the man" tells you or we will shoot your ass.....

hatrickpatrick · 14-08-2014 06:21PM

RustyNut wrote: »

Yay, America the land of the free.

Free to do what "the man" tells you or we will shoot your ass.....

Pretty much this exactly. Don't forget that this all started because of a cop pulling people over to tell them to get onto the footpath on a deserted road when they were less than a minute from their destination. Talk about f*cking micro management.

RustyNut · 14-08-2014 06:28PM

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Pretty much this exactly. Don't forget that this all started because of a cop pulling people over to tell them to get onto the footpath on a deserted road when they were less than a minute from their destination.

Obviously fooking terrorists

My name is URL · 14-08-2014 06:41PM

blackwhite wrote: »

None of what the police appear to have done justifies rioting, looting or bandying unverified names/addresses about online - all actions that you seem quite eager to downplay.

I'd say the shooting dead of an unarmed black teenager by white police, in an area where racial tensions run high kind of justifies some sort of civil unrest and disobedience.

Being shot with rubber bullets and being choked with tear gas for taking part in a peaceful protest would also justify an escalation from peaceful to forceful. Likewise when journalists are targeted, threatened, arrested and harmed by police officers. If those things don't justify civil unrest then I don't know what would.

I know you'd prefer if people just sat on their hands and accepted everything while police investigated wrongdoing by their own colleagues though. :rolleyes:

Unfortunately in the US, and specifically in areas such as St. Louis; police don't have a very good track record of investigating and holding their own peers to account, so unrest is quite a natural reaction when more and more people are killed by them.

This is what police had to say after they killed a man in New York recently

A Chokehold Didn’t Kill Eric Garner, anti-police rhetoric did

https://news.vice.com/article/a-chokehold-didnt-kill-eric-garner-your-disrespect-for-the-nypd-did

I'm sure that will be appearing on the coroner's report for the guy..

Can you blame people for being pissed when their police forces treat them as enemies rather than the civilians they're supposed to be protecting?

darkpagandeath · 14-08-2014 06:46PM

People do know that picture

http://route60sentinel.com/wp-conten...atrol-Tank.jpg

Is a world war 2 Sherman tank right ? And very badly photoshopped decals

hatrickpatrick · 14-08-2014 07:00PM

RustyNut wrote: »

Obviously fooking terrorists

Let's not get ahead of ourselves, these days in order to earn a terrorist label you have to be a journalist and expose a massive amount of government wrongdoing. Or, y'know, have an "al-" prefix somewhere in your name.

Tail Docker · 14-08-2014 07:45PM

Reekwind wrote: »

It's a massive issue. Here's a good piece from the Economist on the militarisation of America's police forces.

This whole mess just ram home just how far that's come: the 'police' look a hell of a lot more like 'soldiers' to me. Flak vests as standard, armoured cars, military issue rifles, etc, etc. All for unarmed protesters.

Edit: Seriously, this picture just about sums up the madness. Remember that these are police officers and this is not Iraq.

Well, the good old us of a are not alone in militarising their police forces, even our own have all had riot-training for the first time ever recently with ballistic clothing, riot shields and other army-style gear. The Uk have gone much further.

What make me "wonder" is why the average joe, once a signed up member of the Police, suddenly starts viewing the public as "the enemy" and holding them in contempt. Often violent contempt. It takes normal, ordinary people to put on the combat gear and tote the guns against their fellow citizens. I wonder if the State ordered these same people to shoot their fellow citizens on sight as they were to be regarded as "The Enemy Defacto" would they do it?? I'm guessing they would. Uniforms do funny things to people.

Little CuChulainn · 14-08-2014 09:53PM

Tail Docker wrote: »

Well, the good old us of a are not alone in militarising their police forces, even our own have all had riot-training for the first time ever recently with ballistic clothing, riot shields and other army-style gear.

Where do people get this ****e? The traffic corps are trialling a new uniform style with combat style trousers and a polo shirt. There has been no mass riot training or any of the other militarisation fantasies you have invented. In fact, if you bother to read up on the topic you'll see that the GRA have even expressed concern at the reduction in firearm trained Gardai.

Manic Moran · 14-08-2014 10:05PM

Billy86 wrote: »

And yet if you told people not too long ago that the police would be going around in them, you would be told you were exaggerating.

How long ago? Die Hard is a quarter-century old, they had an M8 armoured car in that movie, Dragnet (1987) saw the use of an M114 armored personnel carrier.

If the public don't trust these guys with a single pistol at their disposal, imagine how they feel about them rocking around in those things.

Might depend on what's going on at the time. Over in my neck of the woods a couple of weeks ago, there was a bank raid. In the ensuing chase, the raiders (who had hostages, so the police weren't about to just let them go) kept shooting at the pursuing police. When the police dropped back a little, the raiders stopped to set up an ambush. To give an idea of what was being slung around, thirteen cruisers were hit, three disabled, plus the city's armored car which had taken lead pursuit. It was only ever going to end with a shootout, and in such a situation, the armoured car eventually brought in from another city proved really damned useful.

http://www.news10.net/story/news/local/lodi/2014/07/16/bank-robbery-lodi-police-pursuit-shots-firedhigh/12753185/

If we are to expect the police to respond to such criminal activity, it is absolutely necessary that they have the equipment to deal with it.There is no substitute for an armoured vehicle.

Witcher · 14-08-2014 10:13PM

Billy86 wrote: »

You're aware that that image has been Photoshopped?

RustyNut · 14-08-2014 10:16PM

Manic Moran wrote: »

How long ago? Die Hard is a quarter-century old, they had an M8 armoured car in that movie, Dragnet (1987) saw the use of an M114 armored personnel carrier.

Might depend on what's going on at the time. Over in my neck of the woods a couple of weeks ago, there was a bank raid. In the ensuing chase, the raiders (who had hostages, so the police weren't about to just let them go) kept shooting at the pursuing police. When the police dropped back a little, the raiders stopped to set up an ambush. To give an idea of what was being slung around, thirteen cruisers were hit, three disabled, plus the city's armored car which had taken lead pursuit. It was only ever going to end with a shootout, and in such a situation, the armoured car eventually brought in from another city proved really damned useful.

http://www.news10.net/story/news/local/lodi/2014/07/16/bank-robbery-lodi-police-pursuit-shots-firedhigh/12753185/

If we are to expect the police to respond to such criminal activity, it is absolutely necessary that they have the equipment to deal with it.There is no substitute for an armoured vehicle.

Would it not be in the greater good to let these guys off on their merry way in the first instance and then use intelligence and forensics led police work to catch up on the perpetrators later. Why risk a shootout under any circumstances?

Killer Wench · 15-08-2014 01:21AM

Other rallies have been held across the country, in major cities. They started about an hour and a half ago. Hopefully, they all remain peaceful.

porsche959 · 15-08-2014 01:25AM

Tail Docker wrote: »

Well, the good old us of a are not alone in militarising their police forces, even our own have all had riot-training for the first time ever recently with ballistic clothing, riot shields and other army-style gear. The Uk have gone much further.

Well, it looks like that rumour has already been debunked.

But are you against any riot training for any police?

It strikes me there have been occasions in our own relatively recent past when it's been required:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lansdowne_Road_football_riot

EyeSight · 15-08-2014 01:31AM

Billy86 wrote: »

And yet if you told people not too long ago that the police would be going around in them, you would be told you were exaggerating.

And some more.

If the public don't trust these guys with a single pistol at their disposal, imagine how they feel about them rocking around in those things.

You need to see the other side. This year I was living in an area where the May day riots almost got out of hand(anarchists were promising riots and handing out flyers promoting cop killings). In that case i would have gladly known that if things got out of hand, i was protected and so was my property.

As a law abiding citizen I am not worried about the police chasing me in a tank

Egginacup · 15-08-2014 02:22AM

blackwhite wrote: »

Claiming that there will soon be Abrams battles tanks on the street.
Claiming that, 50% of the time, police raids target the wrong address.

But don't worry, you managed to shoe-horn your Putin reference earlier in the thread in case anyone had forgotten what your real agenda here is.

When did I claim that there will soon be Abrams battle tanks on the street?
If you step back for a moment, I think you will find that I wrote that it wouldn't surprise me if panzers weren't trundling around the place soon. Those were my written words.

Now when I witnessed the recommissioning of warzone equipment onto the streets of the US ...SIX years ago I was called a dildo for claiming 1. that it was happening and 2. that it was dangerous.

I have been in almost 50 different countries around this world, including Russia and America. I have been in the USSR, when it WAS the USSR. I have been in the GDR, China, Papua New Guinea, Haiti, Myanmar, Australia, Morocco, Egypt, Oman..amongst others.

I have NEVER witnessed police brutality, control, and contempt for the public as I have in the United States.

I was drunk in Tunisia one night and foolishly threw my cigarette into a passing car. It didn't do any damage but 2 armed police came and talked to me.
I shudder to think what would have been done to me if I was in America...and I'm white.

I have NEVER EVER seen "mine resistant armoured vehicles" on any street in any city that I have ever had the joy of visiting in any part of the world. Actually, that's not wholly accurate. I did see hardcore Saracen vehicles in Belfast in the 80's during the height of an IRA bombing campaign.

But that was it.

America is now the most frightenly militarised police state ever.

Killer Wench · 15-08-2014 02:36AM

The police are arresting the protesters in New York City.

http://new.livestream.com/JamesFromTheInternet/events/3277196

Looting and Rioting in St. Louis (Merged)

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