I need feminism because...

fits · 30-07-2014 02:08PM

meeeeh wrote: »

Or tie or a suit or an uniform??? Maybe then you are not so suited to the company you are working for and it might be time to look for a different job. I wouldn't want to be represented by a solicitor wearing jeans no mater how tidy and well presented they would be.

I think professionals know to dress appropriately without needing to be instructed to wear heels and makeup which should be discretionary in any job anyway. (I can't wear heels either)

and how on earth did you come to conclusion about where I work? we can wear anything we want!

meeeeh · 30-07-2014 03:28PM

fits wrote: »

I think professionals know to dress appropriately without needing to be instructed to wear heels and makeup which should be discretionary in any job anyway. (I can't wear heels either)

and how on earth did you come to conclusion about where I work? we can wear anything we want!

I didn't come to any conclusion. I was speaking in general but my lack of English knowledge let me down.

As for professionals, good education does not necessary mean ability to dress appropriately. Some companies have certain corporate image and are perfectly entitled to ask employees to comply with it. They are usually very well paid for it too.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5 · 30-07-2014 04:48PM

Da Shins Kelly wrote: »

From what I can see most of the "Women Against Feminism" are young affluent white girls who say things like "I don't need feminism because, like, all the bad things that happen to women happen in other countries so, like, who cares, right?"

They don't seem to realize just how lucky they are to live in a world where they actually can go online and make videos and start movements without being shut down or imprisoned or worse. I mean, it was only a couple of years ago that Malala Yousafzai was shot in the head for simply going to school, and the schoolgirls in Nigeria are still missing and being subjected to God knows what, and there are many more just like them. Not to mention the myriad of ways that women continue to be treated differently in our oh-so-enlightened western world. I find it a little insulting to the struggles that many women face both close to home and further afield to then turn around and say that feminism isn't important.

The whole thing fcuking reeks of western white privilege, honestly.

I agree with all that but the last bit could just as easily be applied to certain kinds of (mostly internet) feminism, which is the type that a lot of people are reacting against - though unfortunately they don't always distinguish between the nutters and the rest of it. Tumblr and Buzzfeed in particular can be ridiculous. One article on the latter titled "Safety tips for women having sex with women" which presumably was tactfully avoiding the word "lesbian" had the top comment of "I can't BELIEVE I even still have to explain this, but NOT ALL WOMEN HAVE VAGINAS". I can see how if you were basing your idea of modern feminism on what you see online, you'd be turned off it pretty quickly, because unfortunately the craziest people make the most noise

Morag · 30-07-2014 06:30PM

Well bisexual women have sex with women, it's not just lesbians.

I think a lot of what is seen on tubmlr and the like are people's learning curves and the learning curve and growth of a new way of feminism. There is no bible, there is no program of indoctrination people have to learn for themselves.

Da Shins Kelly · 30-07-2014 07:42PM

Journey Melodic Raspberry wrote: »

I agree with all that but the last bit could just as easily be applied to certain kinds of (mostly internet) feminism, which is the type that a lot of people are reacting against - though unfortunately they don't always distinguish between the nutters and the rest of it. Tumblr and Buzzfeed in particular can be ridiculous. One article on the latter titled "Safety tips for women having sex with women" which presumably was tactfully avoiding the word "lesbian" had the top comment of "I can't BELIEVE I even still have to explain this, but NOT ALL WOMEN HAVE VAGINAS". I can see how if you were basing your idea of modern feminism on what you see online, you'd be turned off it pretty quickly, because unfortunately the craziest people make the most noise

The internet is home to all manner of subversive and extreme opinions. Nothing new there. Very few of these people really operate in the real world. I have yet to meet any of these so-called "feminazis" in real life. I've met plenty of people who think feminism has no place in society any more though.

I see people rolling out Tumblr a lot nowadays as a stick to beat feminism with, as if all feminists are now operating out of Tumblr or as if that it's the standard for modern feminism now. Most of the people using Tumblr are teenagers who I would assume are yet to do much, if any, real reading on feminism and its developments over the years. Black Feminism in the 70s/80s brought a whole new perspective to feminism that encompassed women outside of the white middle class and actually turned the lens of feminism onto cultures that were perhaps ignored early on. Feminism certainly isn't exclusively a white woman's movement any more and hasn't been for some time.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5 · 30-07-2014 07:52PM

Lads, I'm not saying I AT ALL agree with that "I don't need feminism" stuff, I'm saying I can understand where people would get very misrepresentative ideas of what constitutes feminism IF they're getting their ideas of it from unmediated, often immature, often quite aggressive online content like Tumblr and Buzzfeed.

There's also probably a massive confirmation bias going on too, I'd imagine there's more than a few sites that collate the stupider stuff, present it to a audience already predisposed against feminism and say "look, this is feminism, it's stupid".

And the western white privilege thing that Shins pointed out in the "women against feminism" does apply to the particular and not representative form of internet feminism that I'm (perhaps naively) assuming is what people are reacting against.

meeeeh · 30-07-2014 07:52PM

Proper feminism is often very intellectual and confined to university debates which leaves the nut jobs or that topless Ukrainian group to get the attention on social media and more often also in traditional media (especially the Ukrainian group is photo friendly).

Das Kitty · 30-07-2014 08:28PM

Journey Melodic Raspberry wrote: »

I agree with all that but the last bit could just as easily be applied to certain kinds of (mostly internet) feminism, which is the type that a lot of people are reacting against - though unfortunately they don't always distinguish between the nutters and the rest of it. Tumblr and Buzzfeed in particular can be ridiculous. One article on the latter titled "Safety tips for women having sex with women" which presumably was tactfully avoiding the word "lesbian" had the top comment of "I can't BELIEVE I even still have to explain this, but NOT ALL WOMEN HAVE VAGINAS". I can see how if you were basing your idea of modern feminism on what you see online, you'd be turned off it pretty quickly, because unfortunately the craziest people make the most noise

It's true not all women have vaginas though.

The branch of feminism you need to worry about us the one that virulently fight against anyone who says that. The likes of those who go out of their way to "out" trans women and girls to people who will hurt and kill them.

The tumblr type feminist are generally young people who are learning about inclusion and get a biteen OTT with ramming it down other people's throats. Also tumblr is somewhere people are judged forever over the tiniest mistake. It all reflects the young age profile of the users.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5 · 30-07-2014 08:54PM

Das Kitty wrote: »

It's true not all women have vaginas though.

The branch of feminism you need to worry about us the one that virulently fight against anyone who says that. The likes of those who go out of their way to "out" trans women and girls to people who will hurt and kill them.

The tumblr type feminist are generally young people who are learning about inclusion and get a biteen OTT with ramming it down other people's throats. Also tumblr is somewhere people are judged forever over the tiniest mistake. It all reflects the young age profile of the users.

Aye I know, my point is that it does suggest a bit of immaturity and lack of perspective to react to the lack of penises in an article about lesbian sex with "I can't believe I still have to explain this". There's privilege and entitlement at work there, which reflects the backgrounds (and yes, of course the ages) of the people coming out with it.

It's not the content of the discussions and debates that are happening among (some) young online feminists that's jumping out at me as peculiar, it's the lack of variation in tone: consistently outraged, aggressive and to my eyes, geared more towards preaching towards the choir and seeking validation rather than listening to other viewpoints or seeking to change people's minds. Not to keep harping on about the penises (it was just the example that sprung to mind), but that was clearly a well-meaning person who made a mistake, and the reaction was inappropriate. Sites like Jezebel (though I think that's maybe got its groove back recently) got almost unreadable because of the same kind of stuff.

Morag · 30-07-2014 09:19PM

Many women younger then I am are pissed off that all this 'stuff' hasn't been sorted.
They grew up thinking they were equal and now know they are not, Girl power from the time of the Spice girls never translated into feminism for most. And when you have to repeatedly explain and defend, people get annoyed.

Women esp young women have to deal with a lot of Tone Policing, in person and online.
Anger is an engry, and there are many things I think we should be angry about.
Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminism I think is something worth being pissed about, and so is Bisexual erasure,
if a person can't write and express themselves on their own blog/thumblr what ever, in the way they want then what is the point of having such an outlet?

If you don't like how they are saying what they are saying, then read something else, it's not like they are writing for a paper of record.

Tone Policing is just another way to supress people and how they feel about something, which limits how they process and learn.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5 · 31-07-2014 12:16AM

Morag wrote: »

Many women younger then I am are pissed off that all this 'stuff' hasn't been sorted.
They grew up thinking they were equal and now know they are not, Girl power from the time of the Spice girls never translated into feminism for most. And when you have to repeatedly explain and defend, people get annoyed.

Women esp young women have to deal with a lot of Tone Policing, in person and online.
Anger is an engry, and there are many things I think we should be angry about.
Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminism I think is something worth being pissed about, and so is Bisexual erasure,
if a person can't write and express themselves on their own blog/thumblr what ever, in the way they want then what is the point of having such an outlet?

If you don't like how they are saying what they are saying, then read something else, it's not like they are writing for a paper of record.

Tone Policing is just another way to supress people and how they feel about something, which limits how they process and learn.

I'm not doing the least thing to police their tone, in a personal capacity I'm just always not a big fan of some of it. I'm interested in feminism and I read a wide variety of blogs/books/whatevers on the subject because I like to keep in the know about it. It doesn't mean I can't have a critical perspective. Exclusively reading things I fully agree with isn't something I'm interested in, in fact it seems like something that would massively limit how I process and learn. People are of course free to express themselves on their blogs or whatever, if I somehow implied that I was saying it wasn't, I'm sorry, but expressing opinions is a privilege I had assumed also applied to me.

ETA: Not really sure how relevant it is but you keep bringing the word up, I'm bisexual myself. Very well aware of bisexual erasure.

Links234 · 01-08-2014 12:26PM

Journey Melodic Raspberry wrote: »

Aye I know, my point is that it does suggest a bit of immaturity and lack of perspective to react to the lack of penises in an article about lesbian sex with "I can't believe I still have to explain this". There's privilege and entitlement at work there, which reflects the backgrounds (and yes, of course the ages) of the people coming out with it.

Does it suggest immaturity and lack of perspective though? I mean, think of it like when sex education doesn't include any information about same sex intercourse, it's leaving those who are LGBT without information, and who else is going to teach people about safe sex? So it can't be shrugged off as someone else's problem, and even if it's only a small percentage, they should still be entitled to education on their sexuality. Likewise, if there's going to be an article about safe sex for women having sex with women, you're going to have a small percentage of those the article is aimed at who are either lesbians/bisexuals having sex with trans women or trans women themselves, and a smaller percentage yet again with how many of those trans women are pre-op/non-op and comfortable enough to have sex, which a great many aren't I might add. But it comes down to whether they deserve to be educated or not, and if it's not whatever safe sex article, then who will give them information and educate them? To me that shows quite a bit of perspective.

I won't even try to disgree that a lot of people can be extremely obnoxious, rude and confrontational in these matters, especially when it comes to internet comments, it's part of discourse on the internet and it leaves us lacking an actual conversation about exactly why something like the above matters.

My €0.02 on the matter anywho

meeeeh · 01-08-2014 01:10PM

But what is the point of Internet if you can't call people idiots.

I haven't got much sympathy for arguments against Internet policing. The loolas against vacation are getting traction, anti global warming are still spluttering nonsense (btw BBC finally decided that they don't need to give them 50% of the time because their drivel can't be considered equal to scientific research). You have chauvinist websites that people often complain against. The thing is if you consider every opinion of equal merit, you soon find out that thise who shout the loudest get the most attention. The hate speech especially should be policed (don't tell me to just ignore it), other stuff can be left but don't expect me to respect every nonsense opinion that is out there.

Shakespeare's Sister · 02-08-2014 12:12PM

I don't mind a company concerned with image having a dress code of non flat shoes, but not high heels. Some people (myself included) literally cannot wear them. More elevated than flat, or a medium-height heel though, fair enough IMO. It looks smart, in the same way as a shirt and tie looks smart on a man.

rainbow kirby · 06-08-2014 10:59AM

...because apparently women don't have the right to informed consent when in labour any more.

06-08-2014 11:07AM

rainbow kirby wrote: »

...because apparently women don't have the right to informed consent when in labour any more.

what the fcuk

B0jangles · 06-08-2014 11:13AM

That is terrifying .

Links234 · 06-08-2014 11:22AM

What the ****!? :eek:

Dolbert · 06-08-2014 11:41AM

rainbow kirby wrote: »

...because apparently women don't have the right to informed consent when in labour any more.

Posted that in the pregnancy forum and got a 'sure they had their reasons' response

So many women have experienced similar in Irish maternity hospitals. As someone who will be giving birth in one in a few months, I've always taken comfort in the fact that I can say no to the interventions that I don't want, within reason. This ruling flies in the face of informed consent and throws us back a couple of decades to where we are told to shut up and do as we're told.

eviltwin · 06-08-2014 12:06PM

rainbow kirby wrote: »

...because apparently women don't have the right to informed consent when in labour any more.

I don't really understand the article

what does it mean in practice? Can't a woman just refuse a midwife if she suggests something the woman isn't happy about? They can't force her.

kylith · 06-08-2014 12:20PM

Would this have an impact beyond the delivery room? By my reading it opens the door for any HCP to perform any procedure on a patient regardless of the patient's wishes.

IvyTheTerrible · 06-08-2014 12:20PM

That is beyond frightening.

iwantmydinner · 06-08-2014 12:23PM

Oh Jesus. How fcuking terrifying is that?

I really don't see that ruling being upheld in the Supreme Court though... I really, really hope it gets appealed.

Delirium · 06-08-2014 12:25PM

eviltwin wrote: »

I don't really understand the article what does it mean in practice? Can't a woman just refuse a midwife if she suggests something the woman isn't happy about? They can't force her.

From what I understand, they did carry out a procedure against the wishes of the woman who was suing the hospital.

from the article:

The woman claims that the midwife performed the ARM against her wishes and was a unnecessary intervention in her normally progressing birth that led to long term consequences for both herself and her son.

eviltwin · 06-08-2014 12:27PM

It's scary to think we could be going the way of the US

http://jezebel.com/woman-opts-for-vaginal-birth-fl-hospital-threatens-chi-1611727550

eviltwin · 06-08-2014 12:28PM

SW wrote: »

From what I understand, they did carry out a procedure against the wishes of the woman who was suing the hospital.

from the article:

But if she had refused how can the midwife do it against her will, that's the bit I don't get, did she hold her down and do it anyway?

meeeeh · 06-08-2014 12:33PM

Ok does anybody have a bit more information about the whole thing than a blog and fairly basic article?

It always worries me when someone is telling other people that they should spend their money going to supreme court on a basis of a very limited reports about a court case.

But let me just finish off with this: this case needs to go to the Supreme Court. It mightn’t if the woman in question can’t afford the risk of losing and having further costs awarded against her, but it really needs to, because based on this judgement, woman’s voices and their bodily autonomy have just been ripped away. We need to get them back.

Das Kitty · 06-08-2014 12:40PM

eviltwin wrote: »

But if she had refused how can the midwife do it against her will, that's the bit I don't get, did she hold her down and do it anyway?

That particular one is done during an internal exam. Having had that procedure I can easily see how it could be done even when she refused.

kylith · 06-08-2014 12:40PM

eviltwin wrote: »

But if she had refused how can the midwife do it against her will, that's the bit I don't get, did she hold her down and do it anyway?

She was in labour, presumably with her feet in stirrups, she wasn't exactly going to be able to run away.

Neyite · 06-08-2014 12:40PM

eviltwin wrote: »

But if she had refused how can the midwife do it against her will, that's the bit I don't get, did she hold her down and do it anyway?

I'm not sure, but I got the impression the woman had consented to being examined by the midwife so thought it was a standard internal examination that was being done.

I have heard of women having what they assumed was an internal only to find out afterwards the midwife performed a sweep when she was in there.

I need feminism because...

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