Manliness/Masculinity

Annasopra · 05-08-2014 12:36AM

Karl Stein wrote: »

I'd say you're just repeating something you heard.

Not at all. I know a lot of men who define themselves as feminist and are feminist in their actions through life.

omen80 · 05-08-2014 12:42AM

A real man wouldn't start such a thread.

grindle · 05-08-2014 12:44AM

omen80 wrote: »

A real man wouldn't start such a thread.

His sequoia-like wrists commanded that this thread be born, he couldn't help it.

takamichinoku · 05-08-2014 12:46AM

Temporal Loop wrote: »

Regards housework, who generally wants a higher standard of cleanliness in a house. It's usually the woman, therefore it makes sense that they would perform tasks that gives themselves benefit.

That's a bizarrely weak response to the post you quoted.

Women were traditionally judged as being responsible for the cleanliness of a house and your response there carries the same assumptions which have kept them under the pressure of having that responsibility.

My mam's a bit of a mental, but for someone who worked full time, brought in basically all the money and had a myriad of family conflicts to deal with, it was pretty ****ed up that the thing that stressed her out most was the cleanliness of the house. What's worse is that it was the main thing she was being judged on, by people with far far far more free time than she had and it genuinely was all on her, none on my dad, none on us.

Karl Stein · 05-08-2014 01:00AM

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Not at all.

I was kidding Joeytheparrot.

Rough Sleeper · 05-08-2014 01:01AM

Czarcasm wrote: »

It wasn't an anecdote, it was an opinion.

Very well. You opinion, which is based on individual personal experience, which doesn't mean a lot when another individual's experience differs widely from theirs.

I'm not sure I could've been much clearer. Of course I have an issue with this style of clothing. It looks uncomfortable in that empathizing with a man getting his balls squeezed kind of way. If you think I'm unhelpful and antagonistic now, perhaps you'd better loosen those jeans before you pass out.

I tried to explain to you in my last post that this may not be the case but for whatever reason you didn't want to hear about it. I think ties are uncomfortable in hot weather And if you can't take a man seriously because you think his pants look uncomfortable I can't imagine the dim view you'd take of women wearing high heels, or how much of a knob people would think you were if you kept referring to the shoes as "ligament tearers" or "tendon snappers."

You say The Ramones, I'll say The Beatles. Perhaps you could read up on Beatnik subculture of the 60's which sounds more like what you're talking about than the punk culture of the 70's, before you embarrass yourself on Mastermind.

I don't know why you keep mentioning all these other subcultures, genres of music or artists. I am not talking about glam rock or hair metal or beatniks or The Beatles or chamber music or New Romantics, I am talking about punk rock and The Ramones, which I carefully explained I was choosing as it was a scene with an element of machismo and aggression that is contrary to the metrosexual image some people seem to find synonymous with skinny jeans. It'd be pretty difficult to confuse punk rockers with the beat generation.

The pseudo-intellectual armchair psychology is palpable. A poor attempt at best.

There is no attempt at intellectualism here as I'm making what I feel is a blitheringly obvious observation. As people grow older they become increasingly disconnected from youth culture to the point that new trends seem alien and eventually incomprehensible to them. I reckon trying to explain the concept of post-dubstep or future garage to my Granny would be a pretty insurmountable task. But you don't just wake up to find that the world has changed; it happens on a gradual process. So I'm suggesting that your issue with tighter clothing might stem from the fact that it goes against the cultural
norms that you established in your formative years.

The only thing that's weird here is that you seem very defensive of what you claim is merely an article of clothing. I've already admitted on here I'm a middle-aged old fart, and I look forward to another 20 years time when I reeeeealy won't give a fcuk.

You think I'm the one overeacting? Think about what you're saying: you will not take someone seriously for something so trivial as the fact that they're wearing skinny jeans or a slim-fit suit. Not only is that an ignorant view, it's pretty ****ing nasty. I mean, what would you think of me if I said that I don't take old men seriously because they wear ugly tweed jackets and belt their trousers up around their nipple line? Or that I wouldn't dream of entertaining the fancies of overweight women because they have big round moon faces?

This is how absurd your argument sounds. If you don't like the look, you think it looks silly, then that's fine, I dig it. But dismissing a person over it? Too far, man. You're actively making the world a slightly ****ter place by thinking like this. You're the one with the OTT view, I'm just saying "Dude, think about it, you're not being very reasonable here."

"IF SOMEONE WEARS A PARTICULAR ITEM OF CLOTHING THAT IS CURRENTLY VERY POPULAR I WILL REFUSE TO TAKE THEM SERIOUSLY."

That is your actual position. It's not very strong.

You may want to sit down for this, but... :pac:

I just figured you were doing that whole irony thing an old fart like me doesn't seem to get either

You thought I was being ironic by saying that hip-hop culture is macho? Would you think I was cracking as joke if I said that water was wet?

Learning more about what subculture exactly? Wearing skinny jeans isn't a subculture, it's a fashion trend! Isn't that what you've been saying all along

Skinny jeans have been a staple of subcultures since the turn of the century. Baggy jeans went out with Nu-metal and an increasing number
of alternative scenes have adopted their tighter counterparts, to the point where they're common amongst skaters, musicians and artsy types, indie folk, some metalheads, and they're ubiquitous at electronic and hip-hop events. They've now made their move into mainstream culture and they're becoming more popular. Perhaps we're entering a new age where tights are the weapon of choice for red-blooded males of the same ilk as Henry VIII

I can understand young people wearing clothing I might not "get", but grown men wearing skinny jeans and slim-fit suits?

Too right I can decide whether to take them seriously or not.

Many people growing up in the 2000s wore skinny jeans and continue to wear them into adulthood. At what point does it stop becoming acceptable to wear them (other than if/when you become fat)? And what sort of jeans would it be acceptable for them to transition into?

I've been wearing slim-fit jeans since I was 19 or so (I'm now 26). I've been told they look well on me and I suppose that's what matters most, that I appear well to the demographic with which I most closely associate. Still, it's kinda ****e that someone would consider me unworthy of their attention, or unmanly, based purely on what I cover my legs with. I feel I have plenty to offer. Plus I probably front squat more than them.

Also, if you google "Michael Fassbender suit" or "Tom Hiddleston suit" or "Joseph Gordon-Levitt suit" you'll see some examples of grown men wearing slim-fit suits. These aren't mincing dandies but alpha-male Hollywood actors. Further evidence of the fluid nature masculine fashion which seems to be increasingly favouring slim-fit clothing.

Czarcasm · 05-08-2014 01:01AM

K-9 wrote: »

But being camp is a physical characteristic, not a preference like skinny jeans or whatever! It's like blaming smaller men for being, well, small, its stupidity.

And there's where we'd differ, because the way I see it and the reason why I came to the conclusion that it's a state of mind that in my experience can be a natural tendency, or it can be an overtly exhibitionist facade to overcome deeper insecurities within themselves. I've known many camp straight men, and many camp gay men, and then there were the overtly camp gay men that were actually quite introverted and interesting in their own way once you got them to drop the facade. I've also met young gay men that think being camp is how they're supposed to act.

The skinny jeans were just one example of the whole idea that got carried away on the crest of a gay wave and shouldn't have. Nobody (not that I'm aware of anyway) made any correlation between sexuality and someone trying to make what they think is an original fashion statement. I honestly don't know how homosexuality or homophobia got dragged into the discussion really.

Blaming someone for behaving in a manner that they know is designed to get attention (camping it up), is not the same as someone being on the receiving end of attention for a physical characteristic that they have no control over (being small).

K-9 · 05-08-2014 01:54AM

Czarcasm wrote: »

And there's where we'd differ, because the way I see it and the reason why I came to the conclusion that it's a state of mind that in my experience can be a natural tendency, or it can be an overtly exhibitionist facade to overcome deeper insecurities within themselves. I've known many camp straight men, and many camp gay men, and then there were the overtly camp gay men that were actually quite introverted and interesting in their own way once you got them to drop the facade. I've also met young gay men that think being camp is how they're supposed to act.

The skinny jeans were just one example of the whole idea that got carried away on the crest of a gay wave and shouldn't have. Nobody (not that I'm aware of anyway) made any correlation between sexuality and someone trying to make what they think is an original fashion statement. I honestly don't know how homosexuality or homophobia got dragged into the discussion really.

Blaming someone for behaving in a manner that they know is designed to get attention (camping it up), is not the same as someone being on the receiving end of attention for a physical characteristic that they have no control over (being small).

Okay, I'll give you some gay men might camp it up a bit, but how do you know which do and which don't? It isn't something you are going to know after 2 minutes chatting to somebody.

I never made a correlation between sexuality and skinny jeans, I made the comparison because it's another pretty idiotic view. I hate skinny jeans but I did wear them at one stage, somebody bought them for me. I was young, I also wore grandfathers shirts often, and even worse, I owned 2 bermuda shirts back in 1990. I'm sure some thought it was a camp thing to wear in Ireland in those days.

Czarcasm · 05-08-2014 02:11AM

Rough Sleeper wrote: »

Very well. You opinion, which is based on individual personal experience, which doesn't mean a lot when another individual's experience differs widely from theirs.

Yes but whose opinion do you think is going to matter more to me - my own opinion, or yours? I'm unlikely to change my opinion unless you can present evidence that contradicts my opinion. You're unlikely ever to be able to do that.

I tried to explain to you in my last post that this may not be the case but for whatever reason you didn't want to hear about it. I think ties are uncomfortable in hot weather And if you can't take a man seriously because you think his pants look uncomfortable I can't imagine the dim view you'd take of women wearing high heels, or how much of a knob people would think you were if you kept referring to the shoes as "ligament tearers" or "tendon snappers."

I wouldn't look too favorably on a man who can't do a tie properly either, and those skinny ties? Ohh dear, you're going to have your work cut out!

I love a woman in heels btw, nothing like a girl wearing six inch louboutins and a micro-mini, they tend to mean business, as opposed to the woman that dresses casual, who in my experience, takes a casual approach to her work.

I don't know why you keep mentioning all these other subcultures, genres of music or artists. I am not talking about glam rock or hair metal or beatniks or The Beatles or chamber music or New Romantics, I am talking about punk rock and The Ramones, which I carefully explained I was choosing as it was a scene with an element of machismo and aggression that is contrary to the metrosexual image some people seem to find synonymous with skinny jeans. It'd be pretty difficult to confuse punk rockers with the beat generation.

The point really was that you could point to any band and say their fashion sense inspired skinny jeans. Hell look at the hair metal bands of the 80's, skinny jeans in that context are meaningless. Look at Mick Jagger, skinny jeans, camps it up, all the rest of it, 70 years of age and going out with a 27 year old. The man is a living legend, a rock god, and it's not because of his skinny jeans, it's whatever the fcuk is in his genes!

There is no attempt at intellectualism here as I'm making what I feel is a blitheringly obvious observation. As people grow older they become increasingly disconnected from youth culture to the point that new trends seem alien and eventually incomprehensible to them. I reckon trying to explain the concept of post-dubstep or future garage to my Granny would be a pretty insurmountable task.

Have you tried? I teach computer applications to a class of senior citizens who aren't too shabby with technology, and they too have experienced the stories of the younger generations assuming what could they learn at their age (there's another thread floating around here that has a study done on neural plasticity in the elderly, I'm on mobile at the minute but I'm sure you'll find it). I wonder has the thought ever crossed your mind that you became disconnected, and not your elders? They will have lived a far different life to yours, it doesn't hurt to acknowledge that sometimes, and maybe while you teach them, perhaps you might learn something yourself.

But you don't just wake up to find that the world has changed; it happens on a gradual process. So I'm suggesting that your issue with tighter clothing might stem from the fact that it goes against the cultural
norms that you established in your formative years.

Man I grew up wearing cotton tights, kilts, dresses, trousers so tight you'd sing like a BeeGee (specifically Kermit de frog flares). You're so wide of the mark that you need to stop now. You'd only be guessing if you went any further.

You think I'm the one overeacting? Think about what you're saying: you will not take someone seriously for something so trivial as the fact that they're wearing skinny jeans or a slim-fit suit. Not only is that an ignorant view, it's pretty ****ing nasty. I mean, what would you think of me if I said that I don't take old men seriously because they wear ugly tweed jackets and belt their trousers up around their nipple line? Or that I wouldn't dream of entertaining the fancies of overweight women because they have big round moon faces?

I'd say to each their own.

This is how absurd your argument sounds. If you don't like the look, you think it looks silly, then that's fine, I dig it. But dismissing a person over it? Too far, man. You're actively making the world a slightly ****ter place by thinking like this. You're the one with the OTT view, I'm just saying "Dude, think about it, you're not being very reasonable here."

"IF SOMEONE WEARS A PARTICULAR ITEM OF CLOTHING THAT IS CURRENTLY VERY POPULAR I WILL REFUSE TO TAKE THEM SERIOUSLY."

That is your actual position. It's not very strong.

No. My actual position, and I've stated this a number of times now, is that they look ridiculous, to me, and because I don't particularly care for what's currently popular and what isn't, I'm not going to care if I'm being unfair to a person I was never going to be able to take seriously in the first place.

I'm also not particularly concerned with what the rest of the world thinks of me for doing so. I'm sure the skinny jeans wearer will survive another day to wear their skinny jeans for someone who appreciates them.

You thought I was being ironic by saying that hip-hop culture is macho? Would you think I was cracking as joke if I said that water was wet?

Skinny jeans have been a staple of subcultures since the turn of the century. Baggy jeans went out with Nu-metal and an increasing number
of alternative scenes have adopted their tighter counterparts, to the point where they're common amongst skaters, musicians and artsy types, indie folk, some metalheads, and they're ubiquitous at electronic and hip-hop events. They've now made their move into mainstream culture and they're becoming more popular. Perhaps we're entering a new age where tights are the weapon of choice for red-blooded males of the same ilk as Henry VIII

I wouldn't hold your breath there Robin Hood, they're a fashion item, nothing more, nothing less, and as fashion changes so too will young men thinking they look the business in skinny jeans.

Many people growing up in the 2000s wore skinny jeans and continue to wear them into adulthood. At what point does it stop becoming acceptable to wear them (other than if/when you become fat)? And what sort of jeans would it be acceptable for them to transition into?

I've been wearing slim-fit jeans since I was 19 or so (I'm now 26). I've been told they look well on me and I suppose that's what matters most, that I appear well to the demographic with which I most closely associate. Still, it's kinda ****e that someone would consider me unworthy of their attention, or unmanly, based purely on what I cover my legs with. I feel I have plenty to offer. Plus I probably front squat more than them.

And therein lies the male insecurity! What the hell does it matter to you what your peers think of how you dress or how I might treat you because of the way you dress?

If all you have to offer is "I probably front squat more than them", without knowing how much I can front squat, could you blame me for not wanting to listen to that sort of fox and sore grapes nonsense?

Also, if you google "Michael Fassbender suit" or "Tom Hiddleston suit" or "Joseph Gordon-Levitt suit" you'll see some examples of grown men wearing slim-fit suits. These aren't mincing dandies but alpha-male Hollywood actors. Further evidence of the fluid nature masculine fashion which seems to be increasingly favouring slim-fit clothing.

Ohh you went there! This has nothing to do with that alpha-male nonsense, notwithstanding the fact that your three examples are terrible examples of masculinity as far as I'm concerned. Personal tastes I guess. I think it's also wishful thinking on your part to suggest that masculinity seems to be dependant upon fashion in the first place (though not surprising given your age), let alone that it seems to be graduating towards slim fit clothing on grown men.

SpaceTime · 05-08-2014 02:22AM

Nothing less manly than feeling the need to discuss whether you're sufficiently masculine.

I prefer people who are just comfortable in their own skin.

Also there's nothing masculine or feminine about being able to deal with your emotions. It's just being human (or advanced vertebrate). You should be able to give someone a hug, appreciate stuff and still be able to chop down a tree and change a tyre.

Likewise there's nothing less attractive than a woman playing up the dumb blonde thing and pretending they can't do stuff. I'm not attracted to airheads.

KahBoom · 05-08-2014 02:25AM

I think this is more of a problem of 1: people being too insecure about how others judge them, and 2: people being too judging of others around them - probably based on their own insecurities.

It's simple: Be whatever way you want to be - just don't judge others for the way they are, and don't try to impose your own (probably flawed) standards on others.

Probably 90% of people out there, don't follow this simple principle that would make all our lives easier - even people who say they do, and make an outward appearance of being non-judging, will still tend to judge people (themselves included) - perhaps based on e.g. how they think their friends might perceive them/others.

I mean just read back through this thread and all the judgments thrown around, over completely inconsequential things, like the way people decide to dress.

Czarcasm · 05-08-2014 02:50AM

K-9 wrote: »

Okay, I'll give you some gay men might camp it up a bit, but how do you know which do and which don't? It isn't something you are going to know after 2 minutes chatting to somebody.

Realistically you'd know whether someone is being genuine with you or putting on a facade within the first 30 seconds of meeting them, another 30 seconds telling them you're not interested in entertaining them if they refuse to drop the act, give them a minute to decide, and then either they drop the act, or they carry on, in which case I would walk away as we're never going to see eye to eye.

I never made a correlation between sexuality and skinny jeans, I made the comparison because it's another pretty idiotic view. I hate skinny jeans but I did wear them at one stage, somebody bought them for me. I was young, I also wore grandfathers shirts often, and even worse, I owned 2 bermuda shirts back in 1990. I'm sure some thought it was a camp thing to wear in Ireland in those days.

I've no doubt they did. But what of it really, did it stop you wearing them? Of course not. Would you have worn something else had you felt like it? More than likely.

That's the difference between men who are secure in their masculinity, and those that aren't - insecure men will care about what other people are thinking of them, and so they'll wear whatever fashion dictates as opposed to being comfortable with their own style and being completely at ease with themselves.

K-9 · 05-08-2014 02:59AM

Czarcasm wrote: »

Realistically you'd know whether someone is being genuine with you or putting on a facade within the first 30 seconds of meeting them, another 30 seconds telling them you're not interested in entertaining them if they refuse to drop the act, give them a minute to decide, and then either they drop the act, or they carry on, in which case I would walk away as we're never going to see eye to eye.

I'm lost, really I am. You go around telling some camp men to drop the act, within 30 seconds of meeting them?

I've no doubt they did. But what of it really, did it stop you wearing them? Of course not. Would you have worn something else had you felt like it? More than likely.

That's the difference between men who are secure in their masculinity, and those that aren't - insecure men will care about what other people are thinking of them, and so they'll wear whatever fashion dictates as opposed to being comfortable with their own style and being completely at ease with themselves.

Well yes.

But no doubt young lads today still make the same fashion faux pas as I did in my day, you did in yours, that's life! It isn't something to make a character assessment on!

KahBoom · 05-08-2014 03:20AM

On the feminist label thing: If people earlier agree that 'feminist' can (for many feminists) mean egalitarianism, then there's really nothing amiss with any man identifying as feminist then, if they take it as being egalitarian - that's certainly my take on feminism anyway, and so I'd label myself feminist for that reason.

When people are in a debate about gender equality, and try to exclude others from labeling/identifying with a label that promotes gender equality - and exclude them based on their gender... - seems like that's missing the point entirely, and is working against your own goals.

One of my pet peeves actually, in any gender debate, is any kind of judgment or attempt at excluding/minimizing other posters, based on their gender - it can be subtle when it happens, but it happens even from posters who portray themselves as egalitarian - I often end up in the middle of gender debates arguing against both 'sides', because of lots of similar subtle stuff like this.

KahBoom · 05-08-2014 03:21AM

Oh - surprised nobodies posted it thus far :pac:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zey8567bcg

Czarcasm · 05-08-2014 03:25AM

K-9 wrote: »

I'm lost, really I am. You go around telling some camp men to drop the act, within 30 seconds of meeting them?

You make it sound like I'm running up to complete strangers. I'm not. These are people who I come in contact with either through my work or through friends or when I'm out and I may be approached by a man. I don't go out of my way to be rude about it, and I was just trying to give an illustrative example. If someone were generally behaving in a manner I could sense wasn't them being genuine, I have very little time for them after that.

Well yes.

But no doubt young lads today still make the same fashion faux pas as I did in my day, you did in yours, that's life! It isn't something to make a character assessment on!

As I said in another thread recently on here - I'm superficial like that, and that too is life, and I'm sure I missed out on some great opportunities to know some great people if I only gave them a chance, but appearance is only one of the many ways in which human beings discern what they like from what they don't like. I have no problem with someone judging me for that, or even consoling themselves with the idea that they can do more front squats than me.

K-9 · 05-08-2014 03:36AM

Czarcasm wrote: »

You make it sound like I'm running up to complete strangers. I'm not. These are people who I come in contact with either through my work or through friends or when I'm out and I may be approached by a man. I don't go out of my way to be rude about it, and I was just trying to give an illustrative example. If someone were generally behaving in a manner I could sense wasn't them being genuine, I have very little time for them after that.

Still seems odd to me.

As I said in another thread recently on here - I'm superficial like that, and that too is life, and I'm sure I missed out on some great opportunities to know some great people if I only gave them a chance, but appearance is only one of the many ways in which human beings discern what they like from what they don't like. I have no problem with someone judging me for that, or even consoling themselves with the idea that they can do more front squats than me.

Well as you say, its your loss really. I think inquisitiveness is part of masculinity, and that would cover meeting new people just as much as mens toys and stuff like that. Maybe it isn't part of it to you, and well, that's just fine!

It isn't as if all of us tick all the boxes of some ideal masculinity questionaire!

Czarcasm · 05-08-2014 03:52AM

K-9 wrote: »

Well as you say, its your loss really. I think inquisitiveness is part of masculinity, and that would cover meeting new people just as much as mens toys and stuff like that. Maybe it isn't part of it to you, and well, that's just fine!

It isn't as if all of us tick all the boxes of some ideal masculinity boxes!

Wait... what? There's a hell of a ways to go between meeting new people and "men's toys" (although you worked that one in there well, no pun intended :pac:). Inquisitiveness, assertiveness, curiosity*, wouldn't those all be traits common to both men and women, masculinity and femininity?

*Many many years ago the chat handle "curious guy" seemed like a good name at the time as I was curious about chartrooms. It wasn't too long before I found out it had other connotations when I started getting chat requests all the time from other men... ahh the naivety :pac:

Rough Sleeper · 05-08-2014 03:57AM

Czarcasm wrote: »

Yes but whose opinion do you think is going to matter more to me - my own opinion, or yours? I'm unlikely to change my opinion unless you can present evidence that contradicts my opinion. You're unlikely ever to be able to do that.

You have to realise that everyone's experience is extremely limited and as a result you need to take a wide variety of opinions on board to get a better view of the full picture.

For example, if someone asked me a few years ago if women get shouted at walking down the street I'd have said I don't think so, I've never seen that happen. But after hearing the experiences of women online and off, I've come to the realisation that it does indeed happen, a lot more than it should. My experience is limited because I'm not a chick so I've got to listen to what other people's lives are like to get a better understanding of the world.

In a similar vein, I've been going to house and techno nights for years and during that time I've socialised with countless people who'd dress alternatively, often rocking skinnies. I've learned that 98% of these people are sound as a pound and far more amiable than the average person you'd find in a commercial club. Given the fact that I'm a lot younger than you I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that I've had a broader experience with people who dress this way than you have, and that it's a bit **** that you'd judge them in the light that you as most of them are top people.

I wouldn't look too favorably on a man who can't do a tie properly either, and those skinny ties? Ohh dear, you're going to have your work cut out!

Condescension doesn't help. Being a normal human with the dexterity and muscle memory that comes with it, I can tie a tie just fine. I just find that a button-up shirt + tie combo is uncomfortable on a hot day. I like my ventilation.

I love a woman in heels btw, nothing like a girl wearing six inch louboutins and a micro-mini, they tend to mean business, as opposed to the woman that dresses casual, who in my experience, takes a casual approach to her work.

Might want to look at some of the highly accomplished people involved in science academia. If they sat down on the road with a cup of coffee they'd probably have change thrown at them. Seems like a damn shame that others would dismiss them offhand based on their lack of fashion nous.

The point really was that you could point to any band and say their fashion sense inspired skinny jeans. Hell look at the hair metal bands of the 80's, skinny jeans in that context are meaningless. Look at Mick Jagger, skinny jeans, camps it up, all the rest of it, 70 years of age and going out with a 27 year old. The man is a living legend, a rock god, and it's not because of his skinny jeans, it's whatever the fcuk is in his genes!

This is a point that you've made up in reply to nothing I said. I never said anything about who or what started the skinny jeans trend. I could have at least gone back as far as Elvis Presley if I wanted to do that, limp-wristed fop that he was.

And isn't this whole thing about Mick Jagger completely contradicting what you've been saying all along?

"I don't care what the person's like, I can't take them seriously dressed like that."

"Who cares how Mick Jagger dresses? He's an awesome person!"

Have you tried? I teach computer applications to a class of senior citizens who aren't too shabby with technology, and they too have experienced the stories of the younger generations assuming what could they learn at their age (there's another thread floating around here that has a study done on neural plasticity in the elderly, I'm on mobile at the minute but I'm sure you'll find it). I wonder has the thought ever crossed your mind that you became disconnected, and not your elders? They will have lived a far different life to yours, it doesn't hurt to acknowledge that sometimes, and maybe while you teach them, perhaps you might learn something yourself.

AFIAK, current thinking is that the brain remains somewhat plastic throughout life though it starts taking a very sharp downturn around the eraly 20s. Old people can learn and can change, it would be false and ageist to suggest otherwise, but it is a much slower process. The fact that they tend to vote conservatively and very rarely listen to modern genres of music is evidence of this. I suppose if given time I might be able to teach my granny about modern electronic music, but it'd probably take a semester

And disconnected from what? From a time before I lived? I suppose I am, by default. Though my point referred specifically to youth culture. Youths are not disconnected from youth culture.

Man I grew up wearing cotton tights, kilts, dresses, trousers so tight you'd sing like a BeeGee (specifically Kermit de frog flares). You're so wide of the mark that you need to stop now. You'd only be guessing if you went any further.

Fair enough. It's a shame that you've managed to develop prejudiced views despite all this.

I'd say to each their own.

I'd say **** people who think like that, they're arseholes more concerned with image than personality, an attitude the world could do with less of.

No. My actual position, and I've stated this a number of times now, is that they look ridiculous, to me, and because I don't particularly care for what's currently popular and what isn't, I'm not going to care if I'm being unfair to a person I was never going to be able to take seriously in the first place.

So they, skinny jeans, the particularly popular item of clothing being discussed and therefore referred to in my paraphrasing of your position, look ridiculous to you, so you refuse to take someone who wears them seriously.

"IF SOMEONE WEARS A PARTICULAR ITEM OF CLOTHING THAT IS CURRENTLY VERY POPULAR I WILL REFUSE TO TAKE THEM SERIOUSLY."

How can you say "no," this isn't your view, and then go and say that your view is exactly just this?

I'm also not particularly concerned with what the rest of the world thinks of me for doing so. I'm sure the skinny jeans wearer will survive another day to wear their skinny jeans for someone who appreciates them.

Racists don't care about other people's opinions either but I still think that they have nasty views. Sure, you could say that you can change your clothes and not your skin colour, but the fact of the matter is that you're basing your judgement of someone on something that has no real bearing on their personality. It's like me saying that I won't take black people seriously because they have big floppy lips. It's a stunted and nasty view.

I wouldn't hold your breath there Robin Hood, they're a fashion item, nothing more, nothing less, and as fashion changes so too will young men thinking they look the business in skinny jeans.

Sure, like tights and ruffs.

And therein lies the male insecurity! What the hell does it matter to you what your peers think of how you dress or how I might treat you because of the way you dress?

That isn't insecurity. You try out some new looks as you grow up, you find some you like, other people whose opinion you value say it suits you, you're onto a winner. There is a big difference with this and wearing what everyone around you is wearing just to fit in. Everyone, including you, tries to dress in a manner that they believe will look good to people whose opinion they value.

If I came out sporting a leather trenchcoat and Oakleys like I was Neo, and my friends all told me that I look like a twat, I'd probably heed their good judgement as ditch it. That isn't insecurity, it's good sense.

If all you have to offer is "I probably front squat more than them", without knowing how much I can front squat, could you blame me for not wanting to listen to that sort of fox and sore grapes nonsense?

It was a joke. I generally find a lot of these supposed masculine attributes to be pretty arbitrary. I guess if you're going to pick an arbitrary trait then strength's as good as any; men are naturally the physically stronger sex, right? The legs under my slim fits are usually more athletic and powerful than those of the person who thinks I'm a ponce for wearing them. They think I'm effeminate due to the way that I dress but I'm stronger than them; and if we're going by arbitrary definitions of masculinity than I think strength should trump choice of clothes.

As an aside, and this is a bit petty, the fox and the sour grapes isn't relevant here. That applies to a situation where you can't have something and make out as if you didn't want it anyway.

Ohh you went there! This has nothing to do with that alpha-male nonsense, notwithstanding the fact that your three examples are terrible examples of masculinity as far as I'm concerned. Personal tastes I guess. I think it's also wishful thinking on your part to suggest that masculinity seems to be dependant upon fashion in the first place (though not surprising given your age), let alone that it seems to be graduating towards slim fit clothing on grown men. I'd imagine you'd also think I was a bit of prejudiced dick if I looked down on people who were less athletic than me, even if I was taking a leaf out of your book.

I don't think that masculinity is based around fashion, just as I don't think wearing certain clothes necessarily makes one effeminate, the point I've been trying to make all along.

I don't personally subscribe to this alpha/beta paradigm that's doing the round on the internet at the moment. I suppose if you were to describe men as alpha these would seem to be pretty good candidates. But it seems to me that these are charismatic, powerful, attractive men who look damn good in what they wear. I doubt you'd find too many women worried who'd question their masculinity either.

I don't really think there's much more to discuss. Your views on this issue are ugly and prejudiced and you're just going to keep saying "Well that's my opinion and I don't care" so it's not going to go anywhere. I just hope some part of you realises that judging someone as severely as you do based purely on appearance and without any regard for the person themselves is a bit of a ****ty attitude.

Czarcasm · 05-08-2014 04:48AM

Rough Sleeper wrote: »

You have to realise that everyone's experience is extremely limited and as a result you need to take a wide variety of opinions on board to get a better view of the full picture.

...

Condescension doesn't help.

You also have to realise that people are entitled to hold different opinions to your own, and more often than not will hold different opinions than your own. Some of those people might even understand what you're talking about and think you're being condescending in pointing out data analysis methods and statistical theory like nobody else has done their homework or would know what they're talking about.

Might want to look at some of the highly accomplished people involved in science academia. If they sat down on the road with a cup of coffee they'd probably have change thrown at them. Seems like a damn shame that others would dismiss them offhand based on their lack of fashion nous.

I know many highly accomplished people in science, academia and business, and I work with many homeless people on a daily basis, and rest assured, I'm able to tell the difference.

I don't think that masculinity is based around fashion, just as I don't think wearing certain clothes necessarily makes one effeminate, the point I've been trying to make all along.

I never suggested they made anyone look effeminate. I just don't like the look of them on men is all, because IMO clothing that tight fitting looks more androgynous than masculine or feminine.

I don't really think there's much more to discuss. Your views on this issue are ugly and prejudiced and you're just going to keep saying "Well that's my opinion and I don't care" so it's not going to go anywhere. I just hope some part of you realises that judging someone as severely as you do based purely on appearance and without any regard for the person themselves is a bit of a ****ty attitude.

I'm aware of this a long time now, and as I said at the very beginning almost of this thread, if holding the opinions I do causes other people to see me as intolerant and all the rest of it, then the issue is theirs and not mine. You're forming judgments about me as a person based on a couple of chats on an internet forum and you've given it welly with the hypocrisy and condescension, and then you make out I have a shìtty attitude? I'd respectfully suggest you look in a mirror.

I'm walking away from this now as we've reached that level I talked about earlier.

Temporal Loop · 05-08-2014 07:07AM

takamichinoku wrote: »

That's a bizarrely weak response to the post you quoted.

Women were traditionally judged as being responsible for the cleanliness of a house and your response there carries the same assumptions which have kept them under the pressure of having that responsibility.

My mam's a bit of a mental, but for someone who worked full time, brought in basically all the money and had a myriad of family conflicts to deal with, it was pretty ****ed up that the thing that stressed her out most was the cleanliness of the house. What's worse is that it was the main thing she was being judged on, by people with far far far more free time than she had and it genuinely was all on her, none on my dad, none on us.

I think women are naturally more inclined to want a cleaner home, therefore they tend to clean the home.more because it benefits them more to do it.

I believe the culture of expecting women to clean more is an effect of women's greater propensity to want to clean their home. I believe you are confusing cause and effect.

4zn76tysfajdxp · 05-08-2014 09:07AM

Rough Sleeper wrote: »

the muscle tone of a 6-month old infant with Down Syndrome.

What an image.

Hande hoche! · 05-08-2014 09:21AM

KahBoom wrote: »

Oh - surprised nobodies posted it thus far :pac:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zey8567bcg

Flashbacks to the Dexter finale.

dd972 · 05-08-2014 10:10AM

Rough Sleeper wrote: »

There are also "hard men" who, as well as being *****, are genuinely hard, and don't need to be in groups to start a row. Some people are just rough as ****.

I think that's just sociopathic scum your're describing, I don't think of them as hard in the Chuck Norris sense of the word.

average hero · 05-08-2014 10:36AM

One thing I would like to add is that I don't think that this thread is about homosexuality - indeed some of the greatest 'manly men' warriers of ancient Greece practiced homosexuality at times. Nobody on here has expressed a homophobic comment and rightly so. It is to do with the androgyny-sing of the masses!

Some of the stereotypes for manly men in this thread are ridiculous - lumberjacks, special forces, psychos, extreme martial artists. The examples should be fathers who raise their children, men who have typically masculine traits instead of typically feminine traits.

Reindeer · 05-08-2014 10:40AM

FTA69 wrote: »

Do people still think there's a place in society for the concept of masculinity? I was recently admonished by a colleague for stating my belief in the idea of a man "being a man",

Your colleague is a pussy. Be a man. Let the rest of the world suffer for it, if they must.

Gezuz, women want to be men and men are women. Where's John Wayne when ya need him? Prolly out collecting dolls.

FTA69 · 05-08-2014 10:57AM

Reindeer wrote: »

Your colleague is a pussy. Be a man. Let the rest of the world suffer for it, if they must.

Well she is a woman in fairness.

takamichinoku · 05-08-2014 11:49AM

Temporal Loop wrote: »

I think women are naturally more inclined to want a cleaner home, therefore they tend to clean the home.more because it benefits them more to do it.

I believe the culture of expecting women to clean more is an effect of women's greater propensity to want to clean their home. I believe you are confusing cause and effect.

So you're saying it's pretty much a genetic predisposition?

Dude, I believe you are confusing cause and effect, that's mental! I at least gave some logic behind my argument.

Rough Sleeper · 05-08-2014 11:53AM

Czarcasm wrote: »

I never suggested they made anyone look effeminate. I just don't like the look of them on men is all, because IMO clothing that tight fitting looks more androgynous than masculine or feminine.

You don't "just nit like the look of them," you hate them so much that you disregard a person if they're wearing them. There's a bit of a difference.

I'm aware of this a long time now, and as I said at the very beginning almost of this thread, if holding the opinions I do causes other people to see me as intolerant and all the rest of it, then the issue is theirs and not mine.

Just imagine it's a Christian here talking about gay marriage and see how it sounds; how it's their right to view gay relationships as inferior and you're the one with problem for refusing to respect this belief.

You are the aggressor here, you are the one with the prejudiced views, you are the one who is being intolerant. I'm simply calling you out on it. The issue is most certainly yours. If you didn't hold this ridiculous view then I wouldn't have any beef with you.

You're forming judgments about me as a person based on a couple of chats on an internet forum and you've given it welly with the hypocrisy and condescension, and then you make out I have a shìtty attitude? I'd respectfully suggest you look in a mirror.

I'm saying that this particular personality trait of yours is rubbish. Because it patently is. Let's remember that you really, genuinely believe that people are unworthy if they wear certain types of pants.

BeerWolf · 05-08-2014 11:53AM

Tail Docker wrote: »

I shave with a knife, just to keep it real.*

*may not be true.

Chuck Norris sharpens his knife with his beard!

Pic

...

Yeah, I'll be going out now - kinda a decade late on that

Manliness/Masculinity

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