Manliness/Masculinity

Wibbs · 04-08-2014 10:57PM

JuliusCaesar wrote: »

Feminism might have come to Irish women, but it certainly hasn't come to Irish men. Who is responsible for the majority of housework and childcare in most households? Even when both partners are working full-time.

There's a fair bit of truth in that alright.

Which partner tends to have more free time/time to pursue their own interests?

Debatable. For a start take a look at a spread of magazines and the like aimed primarily at women and then those aimed at men. It seems as far as where the money goes men have more and more varied interests as a group to start with. That's before we take into account relationship or familial circumstances.

How many men are asked Gaybo's favourite question of new TDs (female) - who is looking after your children? even now, 20 and more years later.

Has this actually happened recently, or is this just flim flam, a throwaway given that must be true? Genuine question, I'd like links too if possible, cos I really haven't heard that kinda thing in a very very long time.

As regards domestic violence, let us please see a comparison of violence done.

While ignoring the overall stats. I do love a bit of deflection I does.

In general men are physically stronger than women, so I would imagine that the physical damage/threat done to women is greater.

Yep because strong men don't get injured. As I pointed out earlier in the case of one sided domestic abuse stats seem to show women are two to three times more likely to be the aggressor. Never mind the emotional damage which can occur. Emotional damage often has deeper and more longer lasting scars than physical. The old adage of sticks and stones may break my bones but names will never hurt me is a crock of the highest order. I would have thought you'd be more aware and sympathetic to that.

The majority of sexual abuse is done to women and children by men, there is no parity there.

True. I'm with you on that score.

Men have always been more likely to abandon their families. Women abandoning their children is much rarer.

Aye, but you're mixing up children and families. If we're talking about families, women are much more likely to abandon the family unit. Where so called "no fault" divorce is a goer and has been in the culture for a while(like the US, Sweden and the like), the majority (2/3rds) of all divorces are instigated by women not men. So from a child's perspective the chances of a parent deciding to break up the family is 3 to 1 more likely that your ma will be the one to break it up*. Unless you think in some odd way men are somehow a superfluous part of a family unit? Have I known men who walked away from their kids? Oh yes, but I've known more women who've walked away from the family unit. Some had a bloody good reason to BTW, but many, I'd even say a slight majority just walked away from boredom.

As long as a majority of men control access to promotions, there will be less women promoted. Traits that are seen as positive in men are seen as negative in women. Assertive/bitchy, decisive/bossy etc.

I'd somewhat agree here, but especially the second sentence.

I like men being men and I like women being women. In all, we have a lot more in common than not. We are all human and we all have feelings. I appreciate hearing men's take on things as I like hearing women's opinions too. Together we are stronger, together and respecting and respectful of each other, valuing each other's contributions we can move forward. Alas, all too often our relationships (in society, rather than as individual relationships/couples) are seen as some sort of competition.

Stereotypes are detrimental to individuals.

We'd be in full agreement on these points.

*now that folks, is how you get "your ma" into an After Hours thread.

Tail Docker · 04-08-2014 11:03PM

We work with a lad who is an uber-manly-man, built like a tank, looks good, the women go mad for him, unbeatable in a fight, has a nice car, can do a somersault from standing and walk on his hands... the cnut. I reckon it's over-rated..

Call Me Jimmy · 04-08-2014 11:06PM

It's kind of funny how a man has to try to be a man when he is a man. Women don't have to try to be women (unless they are very butch and need to go to afternoon tea with Mrs. Clinklesworth)

Annasopra · 04-08-2014 11:09PM

I have a vague recollection of women TDs recently being asked at some stage in the last 3 years on RTE or TV3 who was looking after their children but cant find anything

_Redzer_ · 04-08-2014 11:11PM

Tail Docker wrote: »

We work with a lad who is an uber-manly-man, built like a tank, looks good, the women go mad for him, unbeatable in a fight, has a nice car, can do a somersault from standing and walk on his hands... the cnut. I reckon it's over-rated..

What's his number?

For science, obviously.

Shakespeare's Sister · 04-08-2014 11:12PM

I sometimes have my suspicions about lads who are "in touch with their feminine side". Or lads who call themselves feminists. I don't mean guys who agree with equality for women, a person doesn't have to be a feminist to hold that view, and most people hold it - but actually calling themselves feminists... I don't get it.
The "white knight" thing most certainly exists.

04-08-2014 11:12PM

Banjo String wrote: »

Anyone that questions my masculinity quickly gets a slap around their jowls with my man bag.

This had me laughing out loud for a good minute

Annasopra · 04-08-2014 11:13PM

Magaggie wrote: »

I sometimes have my suspicions about lads who are "in touch with their feminine side". Or lads who call themselves feminists. I don't mean guys who agree with equality for women, a person doesn't have to be a feminist to hold that view, and most people hold it - but actually calling themselves feminists... I don't get it.
The "white knight" thing most certainly exists.

What do you not get?

Do you think that they are pretending to be feminists?

_Redzer_ · 04-08-2014 11:16PM

Can people just be egalitarians instead of feminists and masculinists?

Annasopra · 04-08-2014 11:22PM

_Redzer_ wrote: »

Can people just be egalitarians instead of feminists and masculinists?

To be honest I think the vast majority of feminists are egalitarian in their outlook and vision and I think attempts to suggest otherwise can often come from misogyny.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5 · 04-08-2014 11:24PM

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

To be honest I think the vast majority of feminists are egalitarian in their outlook and vision and I think attempts to suggest otherwise can often come from misogyny.

You're a braver man than I...:pac:

_Redzer_ · 04-08-2014 11:26PM

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

To be honest I think the vast majority of feminists are egalitarian in their outlook and vision and I think attempts to suggest otherwise can often come from misogyny.

They need to formally rebrand as egalitarian then. Would definitely help to erase the "crazy" feminist comments. At least then some men won't be able to bitch and moan about them stealing their rights or some crap like that.

Czarcasm · 04-08-2014 11:28PM

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

What do you not get?

Do you think that they are pretending to be feminists?

We've already seen evidence on this site even of men claiming to be feminists. It just makes no sense.

_Redzer_ wrote: »

Can people just be egalitarians instead of feminists and masculinists?

Most people who claim to be egalitarian usually fall more to one side than the other, rather than being truly egalitarian. That's the problem that presents itself when a person starts self-identifying with particular labels - some will quickly form to fit the stereotype of the label they give themselves, while others will try to stretch the definition of the label to suit themselves.

I'm not particularly fond of labels myself, that's why I'm an anarchist

Annasopra · 04-08-2014 11:32PM

Czarcasm wrote: »

We've already seen evidence on this site even of men claiming to be feminists. It just makes no sense.

Why?

It wasn't me! · 04-08-2014 11:32PM

While it's possible that there is an unsettling undercurrent of misandry amongst a subset (of indeterminate size/statistical significance) of self-identifying feminists, the very fact that most such descriptions are essentially self-ordained clouds the waters. Just because someone calls themselves a feminist doesn't mean they are one. They might just be an asshole. However, if they manage to be an asshole and tell people they're a feminist, there's an association created, albeit wrongly. This means further down the line, when people hear feminist they think of asshole behaviour, which immediately creates a situation of innate conflict, and the likelihood of breaking that association is lessened. What the world needs is two things: In the first place, treat people right. Give opportunities without regard to things like gender or race or background, inasmuch as is possible. Second, get used to recognising asshole behaviour and distinguish it from the label which the asshole usually tries to apply to it themselves. "I'm not just a shít, I'm a feminist!"

K-9 · 04-08-2014 11:34PM

Jaysus! Whatever happened to men just being whatever type of men they are, chill out man! I do get some of the points made about this stuff but there seems to be a lot of pseudo intellectual stuff in reaction to more extreme feminism, near PUA levels of paranoia. There are loads of different types of men these days and its great, embrace it and stop looking down at others. Its very unmasculine!

Wibbs · 04-08-2014 11:35PM

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Do you think that they are pretending to be feminists?

I have seen some men do exactly that J. Actual "white knights" and sad bastards with it. A lying and cynical exercise in thinking that if they act a certain way and talk a certain talk they'll get more female attention. Not unlike "men" who complain about being "friendzoned" a little too much. They're full of poo and dishonesty and false pretenses. To my mind they're worse than so called players, at least your player type is generally more honest in what he's after.

Annasopra · 04-08-2014 11:36PM

K-9 wrote: »

Jaysus! Whatever happened to men just being whatever type of men they are, chill out man! I do get some of the points made about this stuff but there seems to be a lot of pseudo intellectual stuff in reaction to more extreme feminism, near PUA levels of paranoia. There are loads of different types of men these days and its great, embrace it and stop looking down at others. Its very unmasculine!

I know. I dont get the need to box people off and decide - "oh I dont like that man cause he's too girly and camp"

I dont get it at all. Its a very rigid closed minded way of thinking in my view.

K-9 · 04-08-2014 11:37PM

PS. I think a lot of the insecurity is passed down from men who had difficulty adapting to changes in society and the children get it, reinforced by their own male role models.

Annasopra · 04-08-2014 11:38PM

Wibbs wrote: »

I have seen some men do exactly that J. Actual "white knights" and sad bastards with it. A lying and cynical exercise in thinking that if they act a certain way and talk a certain talk they'll get more female attention. Not unlike "men" who complain about being "friendzoned" a little too much. They're full of poo and dishonesty and false pretenses. To my mind they're worse than so called players, at least your player type is generally more honest in what he's after.

On the other hand I've seen many men who define as feminists and who are truly in my view feminist.

Czarcasm · 04-08-2014 11:43PM

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Why?

Joey one day you're going to make a significant contribution to these threads than just picking apart other peoples posts and asking one word questions. I don't believe for a minute you're that naive as you try to make out, which makes it disappointing knowing you could contribute so much more, but instead choose simply to question from your pedestal.

Anyway, with that said, the reason it makes no sense for a man to be a feminist is because for starters, well, they're a man. They could never see women's issues from a woman's perspective because they do not have the benefit if you like of her experience.

The most a man could ever hope for in relation to feminism is to be egalitarian, and vice versa for women who identify as feminist but claim to advocate for men's rights also. Like I said, it makes no sense.

anncoates · 04-08-2014 11:51PM

I'd agree that being a man can be anything you want but from reading this thread, the pejorative definitions run both ways with some of the snide remarks about insecurity.

It's perfectly acceptable to encompass sensitivity, cultural pursuits, fashion, getting beered up at football and even specifically contextualized ACTS OF aggression within the definition of what it means to be a man.

Czarcasm · 05-08-2014 12:02AM

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

I know. I dont get the need to box people off and decide - "oh I dont like that man cause he's too girly and camp"

I dont get it at all. Its a very rigid closed minded way of thinking in my view.

What's a rigid closed minded way of thinking in saying that you're not particularly interested in entertaining someone who behaves in an overtly camp fashion?

Are they not closed minded in thinking that people will have no interest in them if they don't stand out or make themselves unique in some way? They're the kind of person who aren't giving people enough credit. They're the type of person who is so closed minded that they don't believe in themselves enough to see that there's so much more to them than acting up to a stereotype just to get attention.

Throwing around phrases willy nilly like closed minded and rigid and all the rest of it, eventually that stuff wears thin, loses it's effectiveness, and people stop caring.

K-9 · 05-08-2014 12:03AM

Its harder for me to see the need for male feminists as say 50 years ago, then again it's the same for a Protestant campaigning against discrimination of Catholics in N.I. These days. It doesn't mean there still aren't issues to fight for, and there's something wrong with a modern day Ivan Cooper. Because Feminism and civil rights were so successful there's less need for it now, women or Catholics aren't ostracised these days.

Karl Stein · 05-08-2014 12:06AM

catallus wrote: »

Being a man is great.

Compared to what?

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

On the other hand I've seen many men who define as feminists and who are truly in my view feminist.

I'd say you're just repeating something you heard.

Wishiwasa Littlebitaller · 05-08-2014 12:06AM

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

To be honest I think the vast majority of feminists are egalitarian in their outlook and vision..

The facts are that they are anything but egalitarian. Sure, moderate feminists tend to be, but the majority of feminists that have found themselves in positions of power are far from moderate and have shown themselves to be of anything but an egalitarian mindset thereafter. True colours tend to be well and truly shown.

..and I think attempts to suggest otherwise can often come from misogyny.

Pure and unadulterated: hyperbole.

K-9 · 05-08-2014 12:09AM

Czarasm, never thought you'd go down the "camp men putting it on" line. I'd expect that type of stuff from homophobic types, which is beyond some insecurities about what masculine men should be. I'm assuming you are being sarcastic and on a wind up.

Temporal Loop · 05-08-2014 12:14AM

JuliusCaesar wrote: »

Feminism might have come to Irish women, but it certainly hasn't come to Irish men. Who is responsible for the majority of housework and childcare in most households? Even when both partners are working full-time. Which partner tends to have more free time/time to pursue their own interests? How many men are asked Gaybo's favourite question of new TDs (female) - who is looking after your children? even now, 20 and more years later.

As regards domestic violence, let us please see a comparison of violence done. In general men are physically stronger than women, so I would imagine that the physical damage/threat done to women is greater. The majority of sexual abuse is done to women and children by men, there is no parity there. Men have always been more likely to abandon their families. Women abandoning their children is much rarer. Men tend to carry out murder/suicide of their families much more frequently than women.

As long as a majority of men control access to promotions, there will be less women promoted. Traits that are seen as positive in men are seen as negative in women. Assertive/bitchy, decisive/bossy etc.

I like men being men and I like women being women. In all, we have a lot more in common than not. We are all human and we all have feelings. I appreciate hearing men's take on things as I like hearing women's opinions too. Together we are stronger, together and respecting and respectful of each other, valuing each other's contributions we can move forward. Alas, all too often our relationships (in society, rather than as individual relationships/couples) are seen as some sort of competition.

Stereotypes are detrimental to individuals.

Regards housework, who generally wants a higher standard of cleanliness in a house. It's usually the woman, therefore it makes sense that they would perform tasks that gives themselves benefit.

Czarcasm · 05-08-2014 12:21AM

K-9 wrote: »

Czarasm, never thought you'd go down the "camp men putting it on" line. I'd expect that type of stuff from homophobic types, which is beyond some insecurities about what masculine men should be. I'm assuming you are being sarcastic and on a wind up.

Ok perhaps before this goes any further, I don't make any association between camp behavior and sexuality. Therefore in my view, a personality type that is camp, it's wrong IMO to associate that with homosexuality, and vice versa - just because a man is gay doesn't mean he's camp. Jesus if Brokeback Mountain should've taught us anything.

I'm not at all on a wind-up here at all, I'm just so sick of discussion being shut down time and again by accusations like the above of being homophobic and closed minded and all the rest of it, when as I said earlier, five minutes alone with the guy will tell you very quickly who's the insecure one in the room. It sure as hell isn't me.

K-9 · 05-08-2014 12:28AM

But being camp is a physical characteristic, not a preference like skinny jeans or whatever! It's like blaming smaller men for being, well, small, its stupidity.

Manliness/Masculinity

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