Israel - Palestine Conflict. Mod note in OP - updated 1st August

Tuisceanch · 02-08-2014 06:46PM

Donkey Oaty wrote: »

I have read it, and I believe it is addressed to the likes of people who get their news - and often it is their only preferred news source - from very biased US sources.

So I wish them well in that as well, but it is not addressed to the likes of us.

Well it resonates with the like of me because I understandably can't put myself in the minds of Palestinian and Israeli people and understand all the complexities of their societies and the motivation for their words. We are all,in my mind,subject to some form of brainwashing and even when we step out from one understanding we only assume that we have reached a true understanding.But in truth one can never reach a true understanding so we must always strife to understand the best we can and that requires constant questioning of our opinions and attitudes.

Donkey Oaty · 02-08-2014 06:48PM

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Is it though? The Guardian had their computers smashed by GCHQ for daring to report on the Snowden leaks, Julian Assange is under investigation in the US, a journalist here in Ireland was fired for questioning Martin Callinan, Carol Coleman was ripped apart by the Irish establishment for grilling Bush instead of idolizing him... Etc.

We have legal freedom of the press, but there's a massive amount of pressure on the media to act in a certain way. Is it truly free?

"Pretty much" is the qualifier, and press freedom is a relative term. It's the kind of story-bias that we need to look out for.

For example of "bad journalism", I could say:

HATRICK PATRICK CAUGHT OUT WITH LIES OVER GCHQ SLUR! [story: GCHQ didn't smash Guardian computers - Guardian staff did it themselves, which is technically true.]

But I think the European press has done a good job of documenting what has happened in this current conflict

Chance The Rapper · 02-08-2014 06:50PM

Printer at work is fcuked so I ended up with like 30 "FREF GAZA" stickers

Tuisceanch · 02-08-2014 06:56PM

Chance The Rapper wrote: »

Printer at work is fcuked so I ended up with like 30 "FREF GAZA" stickers

Fairness and Rights Ensures Freedom.

Donkey Oaty · 02-08-2014 07:01PM

Tuisceanch wrote: »

Well it resonates with the like of me because I understandably can't put myself in the minds of Palestinian and Israeli people and understand all the complexities of their societies and the motivation for their words. We are all,in my mind,subject to some form of brainwashing and even when we step out from one understanding we only assume that we have reached a true understanding.But in truth one can never reach a true understanding so we must always strife to understand the best we can and that requires constant questioning of our opinions and attitudes.

I don't think anyone could argue with that.

Manic Moran · 02-08-2014 07:03PM

I agree that both sides. would have the ability to resupply etc, but again the specific operation was against a tunnel, which entrances are inside buildings controlled by Hamas, and I doubt the ceasefire, would allow any operations from either side, that would allow lets say Hamas to enter a building controlled by the IDF in Gaza to remove IDF supplies for example. Surely the IDF would see this as an aggressive act, and by that same logic, Hamas would see the IDF entering one there buildings to destroy a supply tunnel from Egypt in a similar way.

The one need not lead to the other. IDF facilities tend to be pretty obvious so a close-range stumbling is unlikely, and they are always manned giving plenty of opportunity to avert a decisive engagement. The trick for any Hamas personnel who are isolated is to point out to the Israelis that they're inside -before- it comes down to two troops walking around the corner and bumping into each other with rifles. The engagement -will- happen, but if the Israelis are honouring the ceasefire, they'll set up a perimeter and wait for the ceasefire to end before assaulting the position (Well, they may ask if they want to surrender, but I don't know how many Hamas personnel have tried). It would be similar to if a truck driver doing a supply run happened to come across an enemy unit crossing the road, it need not lead to shooting immediately depite being a military activity which leads to contact. If the first indication to the Israelis that an enemy is in the building comes when the Hamas fighters shoot at them, however, all bets are off. Therein lies the rub. If they have no opportunity to escape, the Hamas personnel may decide that instead of following the rules, they'll take out an Israeli soldier or two now while they can, instead of dying for nothing. That's not Israel's problem. There is precedent for such adherence to the rules, see for example the cease-fire observed by colonel Frost's men in Arnhem while they knew that their defeat would follow as soon as it was over.

Incidentally, engineering works to include tunnels are considered 'neutral' by militaries. Even things like minefields, they are marked on charts in a neutral green, not enemy red or friendly blue. They have no allegiance.

SeaBreezes · 02-08-2014 07:34PM

Manic Moran wrote: »

The one need not lead to the other. IDF facilities tend to be pretty obvious so a close-range stumbling is unlikely, and they are always manned giving plenty of opportunity to avert a decisive engagement. The trick for any Hamas personnel who are isolated is to point out to the Israelis that they're inside -before- it comes down to two troops walking around the corner and bumping into each other with rifles. The engagement -will- happen, but if the Israelis are honouring the ceasefire, they'll set up a perimeter and wait for the ceasefire to end before assaulting the position (Well, they may ask if they want to surrender, but I don't know how many Hamas personnel have tried). It would be similar to if a truck driver doing a supply run happened to come across an enemy unit crossing the road, it need not lead to shooting immediately depite being a military activity which leads to contact. If the first indication to the Israelis that an enemy is in the building comes when the Hamas fighters shoot at them, however, all bets are off. Therein lies the rub. If they have no opportunity to escape, the Hamas personnel may decide that instead of following the rules, they'll take out an Israeli soldier or two now while they can, instead of dying for nothing. That's not Israel's problem. There is precedent for such adherence to the rules, see for example the cease-fire observed by colonel Frost's men in Arnhem while they knew that their defeat would follow as soon as it was over.

Incidentally, engineering works to include tunnels are considered 'neutral' by militaries. Even things like minefields, they are marked on charts in a neutral green, not enemy red or friendly blue. They have no allegiance.

I understand as you have a military background you are interested in the rules of warfare.

I dont understand, in the rules of warfare, how the targeting of:

1) water supply plants

2) power supply plants

3) UN refugee centres/schools

4) hospitals

5) medical personnel

6) Mosques

Is this normal warfare? Or Genocide?

I dont have a military background, so from my perspective this looks like a deliberate systematic destruction of all possibility of human life in Gaza.

What are your thoughts on this?

Tuisceanch · 02-08-2014 08:12PM

This article casts doubts on the continuous Israeli mantra of how they are taking all measures 'humanely' possible to minimize civilian loss in Gaza.

http://tinyurl.com/mcu3atw

A quote

"Where howitzers are used to strike back at missiles or mortars launched from inside Gaza, the guns are aimed with the help of the Shilem radar system and a linked, computerised fire direction centre. The coordinates for any protected building – the UN school for example – are supposed to have been fed into that computer database to block fire in that direction automatically. The UN says it had provided the coordinates of all its buildings, but it is not clear whether that data was incorporated into IDF systems."

Son Of A Vidic · 02-08-2014 08:14PM

Tuisceanch wrote: »

Dr. Bashir Al-Hajjar was killed today by an Israeli missile while riding in an UNRWA car. His crime: he treated the wounded and taught nursing at the Islamic University of Gaza.

And not a peep or expression of regret. Not a mention from the usual blinkered western propaganda mouthpieces. Now could you imagine if Hamas fired a high tech guided missile and killed a medical Lecturer driving through Tel Aviv in a UN vehicle? Could you imagine the outrage and uproar? Could you imagine the frenzy of death, that would then reign down on the civilians of Gaza as punishment? You think you've seen and heard it all, yet everyday you learn of some new horror.

Dan_Solo · 02-08-2014 08:22PM

What happened to the long post here refuting Obama and H Clinton's lies on this? I read it, refreshed and it was gone.

JamboMac · 02-08-2014 08:24PM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

What happened to the long post here refuting Obama and H Clinton's lies on this? I read it, refreshed and it was gone.

Maybe it never really existed.

Son Of A Vidic · 02-08-2014 08:24PM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

What happened to the long post here refuting Obama and H Clinton's lies on this? I read it, refreshed and it was gone.

I just popped back from another forum, so sorry I didn't see that post.

Tuisceanch · 02-08-2014 08:26PM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

What happened to the long post here refuting Obama and H Clinton's lies on this? I read it, refreshed and it was gone.

Yes you're right it was here a minute ago and now it's no more.

Dan_Solo · 02-08-2014 08:27PM

Tuisceanch wrote: »

Yes you're right it was here a minute ago and now it's no more.

Can you recall the poster's nick?

Donkey Oaty · 02-08-2014 08:27PM

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

Not a mention from the usual blinkered western propaganda mouthpieces.

It happened four days ago, and was mentioned in The Guardian and more extensively in the Manchester Evening News (details here, with some interesting details about what appears to be a very fine chap).

Son Of A Vidic · 02-08-2014 08:37PM

Donkey Oaty wrote: »

It happened four days ago, and was mentioned in The Guardian and more extensively in the Manchester Evening News (details here, with some interesting details about what appears to be a very fine chap).

Cheers, I read the Manchester Evening news link already, thanks anyway. I was referring earlier to the likes of CNN and such media monoliths, who made no mention of it. Hence the reason I only found out today.

Capt'n Midnight · 02-08-2014 08:51PM

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Wrong. A Thai national was killed while he was working as a fruit picker when a mortar round hit the glasshouse he was working in last week. http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/ForeignPolicy/Terrorism/Victims/Pages/Narakorn-Kittiyangkul.aspx

Also just over a week ago a bedouin was killed when the encampment he lived in was hit by a rocket. http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/ForeignPolicy/Terrorism/Victims/Pages/Ouda-Lafi-al-Waj.aspx

No. what I said was the only Jewish civilian killed in Israel in the last 18 months by rocket or missiles fired by Palestinians was visiting soldiers in a war zone after the IDF attacked Gaza

Yes I am very aware that three civilians were killed in Israel, because that's what the news keeps reporting.

After the death of that Security Guard the Israeli court ruled that the Bedouins were not entitled to shelters or protection because, they were living in , wait for it , an illegal settlement. You couldn't make this stuff up.

The Thai national was a migrant worker working in a greenhouse very near Gaza.

The only reason the ethnicity of the victims matters is because sadly in Israel not all lives are equal.

So again , just to be clear, there have been no Jewish civilians killed in Israel , except that guy who is quite possibly a candidate for a Darwin Award.

And the reason I'm saying this is to show how completely disproportionate the IDF response is.

Capt'n Midnight · 02-08-2014 09:11PM

Noblong wrote: »

And from Churchill. Even thought he was known to be fairly pragmatic after the war even he wanted to gas parts of Germany in a sweat.

The Morgenthau Plan was worse in a way.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pastoral_germany

The Morgenthau Plan, first proposed by United States Secretary of the Treasury Henry Morgenthau, Jr. in a memorandum entitled Suggested Post-Surrender Program for Germany, advocated that the Allied occupation of Germany following World War II include measures to eliminate Germany's ability to wage war by eliminating its armament industry, and the removal or destruction of other key industries basic to military strength. This included the removal or destruction of all industrial plants and equipment in the Ruhr area.

Germany was to be reduced to a pastoral economy never to be a military threat again.

Only thing was a pastoral economy would no money to import food , only later was it pointed out what that would inevitably lead to

In the U.S., Hull argued that nothing would be left to Germany but land, and only 60% of the Germans could live off the land, meaning 40% of the population would die

listermint · 02-08-2014 09:14PM

As the days go on and on. I just can't fathom Israel's end game. They keep on stating objectives and achievements in the media but the facts are they are just sowing vastly more seeds of hatred in the region thus making it more dangerous for them.

It makes no sense. I just dont understand how any sensible Israeli can believe any of this is a good idea.

Surely these guys are intelligent enough to comprehend occupation and resistance from all history has thought us.

Whatever your feelings on Hamas the cause has sprouted and being water fed by Israeli action and Israeli action alone.

Different approach. You muppets.

MOD: Banned.....again.

Tuisceanch · 02-08-2014 09:19PM

http://tinyurl.com/o7h5vf7

Top performers and cultural figures of the calibre of Madonna and Rihanna and have expressed support for or solidarity with the plight of the Palestinan people in Gaza in an unprecedented and potentially game-changing manner.

World famous Irish musician Sinéad O’Connor cancelled a scheduled performance in Israel and explicitly stated she was doing so in order to adhere to the Palestinian-led cultural boycott of Israel. “Nobody with any sanity, including myself, would have anything but sympathy for the Palestinian plight,” she added.

The Mandate trade union in Ireland, whose membership includes retail staff, has written to all major Irish retailers calling on them to stop selling Israeli produce.

Also in Ireland, Dublin city council passed a resolution calling for a military embargo and the suspension of the EU-Israel Association Agreement.

Chance The Rapper · 02-08-2014 09:29PM

Sign to support the military embargo:

http://www.bdsmovement.net/stoparmingisrael

Tuisceanch · 02-08-2014 10:00PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ksk3Q7gu0BI

WRT The Tunnels

I would have thought it quite rational myself that the tunnels were an attempt to provide a communications and supply network safe from aerial bombardment and although I wouldn't suggest that they don't serve a military function..is that illegitimate? Given the devastation wrecked on them by frequent onslaughts by their neighbor, haven't they a right to maintain a military capability to provide some means of defense in case of further belligerent action? Their neighbor, for instance, is quite insistent on it's right to defend itself and nobody has called for them to be disarmed. Also, since the Israeli's ordered a crackdown on the west bank after the killing of three Israeli civilians, then that surely constitutes an act of war.If, for instance, an Irish citizen was murdered by a foreigner who subsequently fled to his native country would we not have to invoke an extradition treaty to have him or her tried in our country. We certainly wouldn't be entitled to launch a war,with our mighty army,against that country. It is of course nothing that hasn't being stated before but the logic suggests that Israel does not afford any such rights to the Palestinians and there is no defensible reason that I can see for their stance.

Donkey Oaty · 02-08-2014 10:02PM

Tuisceanch wrote: »

World famous Irish musician Sinéad O’Connor cancelled a scheduled performance in Israel and explicitly stated she was doing so in order to adhere to the Palestinian-led cultural boycott of Israel. “Nobody with any sanity, including myself, would have anything but sympathy for the Palestinian plight,” she added.

This could be an earthquake of Garth Brooks proportions.

I agreed to perform having been unaware any such boycott had been requested. Had I been aware I would not have agreed to perform. As things stand I have requested to pull out of the show but may not be legally entitled to do so,” wrote O’Connor in the now deleted statement.

She went on to say that if cancelling the show were to incur a financial penalty on herself, she would go ahead and perform after all.

- Jerusalem Post, 18th June 2014, referring to her planned Sept 11 concert.

h2005 · 02-08-2014 10:06PM

Chance The Rapper wrote: »

Sign to support the military embargo:

http://www.bdsmovement.net/stoparmingisrael

I signed it but there's a better chance of me winning the lotto than that happening.

tayto lover · 02-08-2014 10:07PM

Tuisceanch wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ksk3Q7gu0BI

WRT The Tunnels

I would have thought it quite rational myself that the tunnels were an attempt to provide a communications and supply network safe from aerial bombardment and although I wouldn't suggest that they don't serve a military function..is that illegitimate? Given the devastation wrecked on them by frequent onslaughts by their neighbor, haven't they a right to maintain a military capability to provide some means of defense in case of further belligerent action? Their neighbor, for instance, is quite insistent on it's right to defend itself and nobody has called for them to be disarmed. Also, since the Israeli's ordered a crackdown on the west bank after the killing of three Israeli civilians, then that surely constitutes an act of war.If, for instance, an Irish citizen was murdered by a foreigner who subsequently fled to his native country would we not have to invoke an extradition treaty to have him or her tried in our country. We certainly wouldn't be entitled to launch a war,with our mighty army,against that country. It is of course nothing that hasn't being stated before but the logic suggests that Israel does not afford any such rights to the Palestinians and there is no defensible reason that I can see for their stance.

Do not as I do, do as I say.
Hypocrites.

Tuisceanch · 02-08-2014 10:07PM

Donkey Oaty wrote: »

This could be an earthquake of Garth Brooks proportions.

- Jerusalem Post, 18th June 2014, referring to her planned Sept 11 concert.

I provided quotes of Irish interest from the article. None of us are particularly consistent in our actions and I wouldn't focus my attention on the trivial at the expense of the substantial.

As she is quoted farther along in the article "“No one should assume musicians can afford not to work. Neither should anyone assume we can afford to pay the legal costs involved in pulling out of shows.”. That's pretty realistic.She's done more than most to highlight injustice.She's not a machine.

However the article made for interesting reading as it's a very balanced piece of journalism.

h2005 · 02-08-2014 10:34PM

This is an ad campaign currently running in Boston.
http://mondoweiss.net/2014/06/shocking-reality-ground.html

Donkey Oaty · 02-08-2014 10:35PM

Tuisceanch wrote: »

However the article made for interesting reading as it's a very balanced piece of journalism.

It is interesting reading, although it didn't mention that she pulled out of a different concert in Jerusalem after receiving death threats from far-right Israelis, which is another story again.

h2005 · 02-08-2014 10:36PM

h2005 wrote: »

This is an ad campaign currently running in Boston.
http://mondoweiss.net/2014/06/shocking-reality-ground.html

Actually taken down now.
http://www.adsagainstapartheid.com/mbta-removes-pro-palestinian-ads-in-boston-without-notifying-ngo/

Chance The Rapper · 02-08-2014 10:39PM

Time to get the spray cans out if they're going to be like that.

Israel - Palestine Conflict. **Mod note in OP - updated 1st August**

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Israel - Palestine Conflict. Mod note in OP - updated 1st August