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Scumbags jailed for attacking tourists

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    #62
    listermint
    Registered Users Posts: 33,820 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    Hotfail.com wrote: »
    Apparently the PS4s/Xboxes are bought by the families. Correct me if I'm wrong though, just thought I saw that said on some other thread here.

    Then they should be banned.


    Books and education thats what should be in there.


    Teaching the value of work. Perhaps after 500 Hours of work detail you are allowed xbox permissions.

    Work vs rewards.


    You know, like how that person worked months to afford that car you robbed, or scratched with the coin as you walked down the street pissed on a week night.


    Work vs reward.


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    #63
    PLUG71
    Registered Users Posts: 640 ✭✭✭PLUG71


    BorneTobyWilde wrote: »
    And sure why not. And when they are sent to prison it's Sky tv, Yoda, music lessons,room service
    Yoda?
    May the force be with you!


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    #64
    Turtyturd
    Registered Users Posts: 28,395 ✭✭✭✭Turtyturd


    Hotfail.com wrote: »
    Apparently the PS4s/Xboxes are bought by the families. Correct me if I'm wrong though, just thought I saw that said on some other thread here.

    Yep they are.


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    #65
    Renegade Mechanic
    Registered Users Posts: 7,934 ✭✭✭Renegade Mechanic


    Davarus Walrus wrote: »
    I wonder what is causing young men like this to become so feral and violent? Is it parenting, society, poverty, a cushy welfare system that doesn't ask questions, mental illness, drugs?

    In fairness.. Pretty much everything there.


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    #66
    listermint
    Registered Users Posts: 33,820 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    DrumSteve wrote: »
    Like it or not; while they are in the custody of the state it is up to the state to look after them.

    I fully agree re: work, but it has to be consistent, teach them skills they can use outside of prison. They can't work all day every day, even then your looking at insurance issues, wages and so forth.

    Books, computers, tvs; they all just do the same thing, keeping the prisoners distracted so they don't wreck the place. While I don't agree with ps4's and xbox1 being given out, i've no problem with some older computers.

    Why not!? I do!





    Work Vs Reward, If you wreck the place then no reward - solitary.
    Work Vs Reward, Extra visit rights (longer time) Xboxs if you like.

    Its about teaching Value. Lefty nonsense about hugging them and keeping minds occupied with mindless TV is crap.


    I would imagine majority of prisoners would fall into line, with the remaining hard jaws going to solitary where they belong.


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    #67
    Hotfail.com
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,928 ✭✭✭Hotfail.com


    listermint wrote: »
    Then they should be banned.


    Books and education thats what should be in there.


    Teaching the value of work. Perhaps after 500 Hours of work detail you are allowed xbox permissions.

    Work vs rewards.


    You know, like how that person worked months to afford that car you robbed, or scratched with the coin as you walked down the street pissed on a week night.


    Work vs reward.

    To be honest I don't see the difference between a book vs. a Playstation, but I agree that they shouldn't just be allowed play the Playstation all day. If they work/learn some skills for a number of hours a day I think they should be allowed have something to keep them occupied afterwards, like you've said, work vs. rewards.

    Say they do 9-5 working Monday-Friday whilst in prison, once they're finished their workday I think it's fair enough to let them play their Playsation. If they refuse to work then you take it away for a week, or some other similar punishment. Making them have the worst time of their lives whilst in prison won't help anything imo except raise even more contempt for the law.


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    #68
    Turtyturd
    Registered Users Posts: 28,395 ✭✭✭✭Turtyturd


    listermint wrote: »
    Why not!? I do!





    Work Vs Reward, If you wreck the place then no reward - solitary.
    Work Vs Reward, Extra visit rights (longer time) Xboxs if you like.

    Its about teaching Value. Lefty nonsense about hugging them and keeping minds occupied with mindless TV is crap.


    I would imagine majority of prisoners would fall into line, with the remaining hard jaws going to solitary where they belong.


    That is pretty much what happens....what exactly is your idea of what goes on in prison?


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    #69
    Shenshen
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 9,453 Mod ✭✭✭✭Shenshen


    geeksauce wrote: »
    You don't execute people we don't like, if someone is a repeat offender rather than give them a slap on the wrist and let them go we would need to jail them for a very long time to stop them from reoffending. Now in order for that to work the whole jail time needs to be changed, criminals don't mind going to jail because they see it as an easy time which to be fair it pretty much is.

    If you want to put in place things such as strong education and consistent sentences you still need to deter those people not interested in working who are more interested in making a living from crime from going to jail. Make jail an absolutely awful horrible place to be and more and more people will stop breaking the law just to avoid going to jail.

    Many criminals appear to have the attitude that idiots work for a living so no matter what the education system is they wont avail of the benefits it offers, instead they will commit crime. Now if you put the prisoners to work they will soon come to realise that if they are going to have to work they would be better off getting paid for the work and would then choose to work outside of prison and avoid having to work while in prison for free.

    In short, depite it having been disproven repeatedly and the world over, you're still buying into the theory that harder punishments work as better deterrents.

    If worse conditions in jail were an effective way of deterring criminals, would that not consequently mean that places with the most horrendous conditions in jail as well as the longest and most severe punishments would the absolute havens full of peaceful and law-abiding citizens?
    Outside of Singapore, I actually dare you to try and find one where this is actually the case.


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    #70
    listermint
    Registered Users Posts: 33,820 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    Turtyturd wrote: »
    That is pretty much what happens....what exactly is your idea of what goes on in prison?

    i would think that prisoners get locked up for some hours.

    They get a reasonably dam high amount of free time, but more so common time. And they have alot of access to mind numbing things like TV Radio Internet and consoles.

    They are also given 'access' to courses to improve themselves. Very little is mandatory about it. And one has to put themselves forward for improvement as opposed to it being a requirement to your time inside.

    So frankly you can come out the other side having done nothing to improve yourself. being well fed, clothed and having leasured most of your time there all beit inside and in many cases getting a reduced sentence for simple not kicking off but shown zero remorse or demonstratable improvement.


    Is that about right ?


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    #71
    Hotfail.com
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,928 ✭✭✭Hotfail.com


    Turtyturd wrote: »
    That is pretty much what happens....what exactly is your idea of what goes on in prison?

    What does go on in prison? :confused: I've never really looked into it tbh...


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    #72
    Macavity.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,745 ✭✭✭Macavity.


    jugger0 wrote: »
    Why put them in jail? they are worthless and i don't want my wages going to feeding them and housing them, no reason for them to be kept alive.

    Actually it would be more expensive to have them executed, unless you want to do away with trials, appeals etc.. which come to think of it, you probably would.


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    #73
    Turtyturd
    Registered Users Posts: 28,395 ✭✭✭✭Turtyturd


    listermint wrote: »
    i would think that prisoners get locked up for some hours.

    They get a reasonably dam high amount of free time, but more so common time. And they have alot of access to mind numbing things like TV Radio Internet and consoles.

    They are also given 'access' to courses to improve themselves. Very little is mandatory about it. And one has to put themselves forward for improvement as opposed to it being a requirement to your time inside.

    So frankly you can come out the other side having done nothing to improve yourself. being well fed, clothed and having leasured most of your time there all beit inside and in many cases getting a reduced sentence for simple not kicking off but shown zero remorse or demonstratable improvement.


    Is that about right ?

    Prisoners aren't a uniform group. They get different access to stuff and amounts of 'free' time based on which prison they are in, what they are in for.

    They are encouraged to do course/work, they cannot be forced and a lack of facilities means the numbers have to be kept down anyway. But all this is tied into the concessions they receive. They engage with the supports, they get extra visits and phone calls etc. The aim is to get them through the system (closed prison - enhanced regime - open prison - TR) by having them engage with what's available to them. It's laughable to suggest that they just sit around and get early release anyway.


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    #74
    geeksauce
    Closed Accounts Posts: 826 ✭✭✭geeksauce


    Shenshen wrote: »
    In short, depite it having been disproven repeatedly and the world over, you're still buying into the theory that harder punishments work as better deterrents.

    If worse conditions in jail were an effective way of deterring criminals, would that not consequently mean that places with the most horrendous conditions in jail as well as the longest and most severe punishments would the absolute havens full of peaceful and law-abiding citizens?
    Outside of Singapore, I actually dare you to try and find one where this is actually the case.

    The reason most of these places that have appalling conditions in jail are not safe havens is because of a lack of opportunities for the citizens, Brazil being a prime example many have no other option but to turn to crime to survive.

    That simply is not the case in Ireland given the level of state supports on offer, people can live relatively comfortably here on social welfare in comparison to the other countries with worse jail conditions. I would imagine if you give people the choice in Brazil between working or being on social welfare with the housing supports on offer in Ireland versus a life of crime that many are forced into I would say the majority would choose employment and or social welfare over crime any day of the week.


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    #75
    listermint
    Registered Users Posts: 33,820 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    Turtyturd wrote: »
    Prisoners aren't a uniform group. They get different access to stuff and amounts of 'free' time based on which prison they are in, what they are in for.

    They are encouraged to do course/work, they cannot be forced and a lack of facilities means the numbers have to be kept down anyway. But all this is tied into the concessions they receive. They engage with the supports, they get extra visits and phone calls etc. The aim is to get them through the system (closed prison - enhanced regime - open prison - TR) by having them engage with what's available to them. It's laughable to suggest that they just sit around and get early release anyway.

    So pretty much exactly what i said.

    And are you saying that prisoners who failed to engage actively in any of these services and felt more suited to just hanging around their cell and not actively causing trouble inside dont get early release ?


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    #76
    jugger0
    Registered Users Posts: 1,453 ✭✭✭jugger0


    Hotfail.com wrote: »
    Sure yeah, flaying them alive is a great alternative.

    Will you be acting the butcher so or would that be a bit too much for you?

    Ya i'd do it for a tenner a scumbag, would be a privilege really.


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    #77
    2smiggy
    Registered Users Posts: 20,238 ✭✭✭✭2smiggy


    What ever you think about his political views etc, Sheriff Joe out in Arizona does run a tight ship when it comes to prisons link or this article. He probably goes too far, but has the right idea. Prisons should be places that you do not want to return to.


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    #78
    Gosub
    Closed Accounts Posts: 874 ✭✭✭Gosub


    DrumSteve wrote: »
    Like it or not; while they are in the custody of the state it is up to the state to look after them.

    I fully agree re: work, but it has to be consistent, teach them skills they can use outside of prison. They can't work all day every day, even then your looking at insurance issues, wages and so forth.

    Books, computers, tvs; they all just do the same thing, keeping the prisoners distracted so they don't wreck the place. While I don't agree with ps4's and xbox1 being given out, i've no problem with some older computers.
    No disrespect to you, my friend. But it's your style of wishy-washy liberal do-gooderism (it's a word!:D) that has us where we are today. Look around any city. The scumbags rule the streets. They are out of control.

    They should forfeit their basic human rights when they remove those of others. You know, the ones where people have the right to a happy and peaceful life, free from fear? Liberals tend to forget about the victims of the criminals.

    I know there are some people who make wrong choices in life and take a wrong turn. I would agree that these people need guidance and help to become productive citizens again. The scum that we are breeding these days do not fall into that category. They will never change. They like the way they get away with murder, sometimes literally! They laugh at the likes of you and play up to you. They play the system for everything they can get out of it with no intention of ever becoming contributors to it.

    Not any kind of keyboard warriorism, but I think prison places could be outsourced. Pay some country to take the harder of our prisoners and keep them for the term of their sentence. I have spoken to some very hard men after their time in a Moroccan prison. It does act as a deterrent they think twice before they do something which might see then back there. I personally know an Irish man that spent time in a Spanish prison. It was anything but a holiday camp. The families must look after their own and if they want anything but the basics, the family must bring it in for them.

    TL;DR. Prisoners should fear prison, not look forward to it.


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    #79
    DrumSteve
    Registered Users Posts: 10,799 ✭✭✭✭DrumSteve


    Gosub wrote: »
    No disrespect to you, my friend. But it's your style of wishy-washy liberal do-gooderism (it's a word!:D) that has us where we are today. Look around any city. The scumbags rule the streets. They are out of control.

    They should forfeit their basic human rights when they remove those of others. You know, the ones where people have the right to a happy and peaceful life, free from fear? Liberals tend to forget about the victims of the criminals.

    I know there are some people who make wrong choices in life and take a wrong turn. I would agree that these people need guidance and help to become productive citizens again. The scum that we are breeding these days do not fall into that category. They will never change. They like the way they get away with murder, sometimes literally! They laugh at the likes of you and play up to you. They play the system for everything they can get out of it with no intention of ever becoming contributors to it.

    Not any kind of keyboard warriorism, but I think prison places could be outsourced. Pay some country to take the harder of our prisoners and keep them for the term of their sentence. I have spoken to some very hard men after their time in a Moroccan prison. It does act as a deterrent they think twice before they do something which might see then back there. I personally know an Irish man that spent time in a Spanish prison. It was anything but a holiday camp. The families must look after their own and if they want anything but the basics, the family must bring it in for them.

    TL;DR. Prisoners should fear prison, not look forward to it.

    Just because I don't want to flay someone alive doesn't make a do gooder, I said above I want people to serve the sentence they are given.

    But if you brutalise someone, you're not rehabilitating them. You can treat them like **** all you want, the worse you treat them the worse they will be. These prisons in Singapore, thailand, brazil, mexico... I'd like to think that we as a society are better than keeping people cooped up like animals. The victorian method of harsh punishment has not worked. We need to get to the root of what is causing this and work from there.

    There are some scumbags who will laugh at you and take advantage of the system, that's guaranteed. The only way you get through to them is by removing any priviledges they have including getting out early.

    You do however need to incentivise people to want to do better, be it small rewards like an x box or even just being let out of their cell.Consistent sentencing and a defined work/skills scheme can help to bring down recidivism also.

    There is no level of brutalisation that you can subject these people to, that they cannot adapt to and thrive in. Then what? They eventually get released as they always do and you have even more violent psychos on the streets.


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    #80
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    I don't advocate death penalty, hard labour or anything cruel or unusual. If someone is incarcerated they should be afforded all the access to counselling, training and rehab they need. However, if they continuously reject this help, if they repeatedly commit crime, endanger the public and disrupt society, they need to be separated from society. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.


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    #81
    Gosub
    Closed Accounts Posts: 874 ✭✭✭Gosub


    DrumSteve wrote: »
    Just because I don't want to flay someone alive doesn't make a do gooder, I said above I want people to serve the sentence they are given.

    But if you brutalise someone, you're not rehabilitating them. You can treat them like **** all you want, the worse you treat them the worse they will be. These prisons in Singapore, thailand, brazil, mexico... I'd like to think that we as a society are better than keeping people cooped up like animals. The victorian method of harsh punishment has not worked. We need to get to the root of what is causing this and work from there.

    There are some scumbags who will laugh at you and take advantage of the system, that's guaranteed. The only way you get through to them is by removing any priviledges they have including getting out early.

    You do however need to incentivise people to want to do better, be it small rewards like an x box or even just being let out of their cell.Consistent sentencing and a defined work/skills scheme can help to bring down recidivism also.

    There is no level of brutalisation that you can subject these people to, that they cannot adapt to and thrive in. Then what? They eventually get released as they always do and you have even more violent psychos on the streets.
    I hate to point this out to you, Steve, But this is exactly what is happening now. The streets are probably less safe now than at any time I can remember, and I have a large store of years to call on.

    The trouble is: what we are doing now isn't working. The hard core scumbags can't be incentivised because they already have it cushy, mainly thanks to a failing judicial system.

    The judges want to sort the problem out but their hands are tied by the lack of political will to deal with the problem. Politicians are well insulated from the mess, why would they care? Result? Well, as I said above, look around you.


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    #82
    DrumSteve
    Registered Users Posts: 10,799 ✭✭✭✭DrumSteve


    Gosub wrote: »
    I hate to point this out to you, Steve, But this is exactly what is happening now. The streets are probably less safe now than at any time I can remember, and I have a large store of years to call on.

    The trouble is: what we are doing now isn't working. The hard core scumbags can't be incentivised because they already have it cushy, mainly thanks to a failing judicial system.

    The judges want to sort the problem out but their hands are tied by the lack of political will to deal with the problem. Politicians are well insulated from the mess, why would they care? Result? Well, as I said above, look around you.

    Again, it comes back to consistent sentencing. I mean, look at the OP in this thread. Those lads should have been locked up long ago and in this case, they should have got a lot longer than they did.


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    #83
    dublinman1990
    Registered Users Posts: 8,389 ✭✭✭dublinman1990


    What a right trio of miserable ***** to do that to a few tourists that are only visiting this country for only a short time. The sad thing is that the pairs of tourists that were involved as their victims may never come back to Ireland ever again after what happened to them in it's capital city.

    A sentencing of 3 to 5 years for those 3 scumbags is an utter joke for this sort of crime. It should be much longer to a minimum of between 15 to 20 years for each person to take into account the gravity of the situations in which in they had left their victims with no where else to go.

    They left a scar on their victims lives in which it is there for life and cannot go away. Regardless of the sentencing of those scumbags, the attack itself is a sickening feeling to live through for their rest of the victim's lives.


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    #84
    SVJKarate
    Registered Users Posts: 260 ✭✭SVJKarate


    Shenshen wrote: »
    In short, depite it having been disproven repeatedly and the world over, you're still buying into the theory that harder punishments work as better deterrents.

    Disproven where?

    And where is the evidence to say that non-punishment (e.g. the Irish situation) is more effective? I think what people are saying here is simply that repeat offenders should receive incrementally more severe punishment, and not continue to be given suspended sentences.


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    #85
    ROCKMAN
    Registered Users Posts: 6,247 ✭✭✭ROCKMAN


    Shenshen wrote: »
    In short, depite it having been disproven repeatedly and the world over, you're still buying into the theory that harder punishments work as better deterrents.

    If worse conditions in jail were an effective way of deterring criminals, would that not consequently mean that places with the most horrendous conditions in jail as well as the longest and most severe punishments would the absolute havens full of peaceful and law-abiding citizens?
    Outside of Singapore, I actually dare you to try and find one where this is actually the case.

    This may come across wrong but the most horrendous jails throughout the world are 99% in countries that have criminals that offend just to survive not like here in Ireland where 90% of criminals are after a better lifestyle or the next fix and if true survival is at stake then no severe punishments or horrendous prison conditions are going to act as deterrents .


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    #86
    thebaz
    Registered Users Posts: 13,615 ✭✭✭✭thebaz


    Moat_Cailin wrote: »
    Up to 69 convictions and never been sent to prison, sure why wouldn't they assault who they like. Country made it pretty clear they can act like thugs if that suits them.

    but its great that the Government & Gardai are clamping down on real criminals - Motor offenders -

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/motorists-face-more-penalty-points-for-speeding-from-friday-1.1882534

    Intentionally violently attack someone and your ok , but slight motoring infringement expect the book to be thrown at you


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    #87
    Barely There
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,481 ✭✭✭Barely There


    Gosub wrote: »
    I hate to point this out to you, Steve, But this is exactly what is happening now. The streets are probably less safe now than at any time I can remember, and I have a large store of years to call on.


    You're wrong.

    The 'streets' are safer than they've ever been and getting safer. All crime statistics point to this, but I presume it doesn't suit your 'we're breeding a generation of psychos' worldview.


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    #88
    stmol32
    Registered Users Posts: 718 ✭✭✭stmol32


    2smiggy wrote: »
    What ever you think about his political views etc, Sheriff Joe out in Arizona does run a tight ship when it comes to prisons link or this article. He probably goes too far, but has the right idea. Prisons should be places that you do not want to return to.

    He's right too, I don't think anyone ever ends up back in his prison after he gets his hands on the once.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maricopa_County_Sheriff%27s_Office_controversies#Recidivism


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    #89
    listermint
    Registered Users Posts: 33,820 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    Barely There wrote: »
    You're wrong.

    The 'streets' are safer than they've ever been and getting safer. All crime statistics point to this, but I presume it doesn't suit your 'we're breeding a generation of psychos' worldview.

    Crime Statistics are VERY massaged in this country. That much is a fact.

    I know plenty of gardai, and there are things that they are and are not meant to do to insure the stats are alright for their division.

    So i would not hold Stats up as some shining light.

    Boots on the street are the problem, If you dont believe that then take a walk around our capital city any time of day and witness the drunks and takers and pushers hanging around on our multi million Euro Boardwalks, designed to bring the liffey 'closer to you'


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    #90
    geeksauce
    Closed Accounts Posts: 826 ✭✭✭geeksauce


    Barely There wrote: »
    You're wrong.

    The 'streets' are safer than they've ever been and getting safer. All crime statistics point to this, but I presume it doesn't suit your 'we're breeding a generation of psychos' worldview.

    There is no way in the world the streets are safer than ever before, years ago I used to walk from one end of my towns main street to the other at about 11 on a Saturday most of the time alone, (going to meet friends after work) but now there is no way whatsoever that I would even contemplate doing this at that time on a Saturday night.


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    #91
    Gosub
    Closed Accounts Posts: 874 ✭✭✭Gosub


    Barely There wrote: »
    You're wrong.

    The 'streets' are safer than they've ever been and getting safer. All crime statistics point to this, but I presume it doesn't suit your 'we're breeding a generation of psychos' worldview.
    Yeah, I'm sure you can produce all kinds of crap to back that up. But as I say, just look around you. Are you really going to try to convince me that our streets are safe? I remember a time when they were. But we probably didn't make up stats so much then.


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