Single life as a guy...

ancapailldorcha · 25-07-2014 09:55AM

fits wrote: »

Jes I dont know, I think this is a very negative thread towards marriage. I cant think of anyone in my network that I think would be happier on their own than in a relationship or married, certainly into middle age and beyond.

I live in both worlds at the moment. In a long term relationship but spend large chunks of time on my own abroad. I much prefer living with someone. I am mid thirties and most of my friends, almost all in fact, are unmarried. Those that are dont have children yet, those that have children arent married. A lot are single. They'd have good careers for the most part and are liberal in outlook I guess. Not the usual. But I do wonder how it will work out in the coming years.

I definitely wouldn't call myself anti-marriage. However, having been single all my life I have accepted it as the norm and realise that I may be lacking a level of maturity that women my ages are looking for, though I am by no means an expert and that is a sweeping generalisation. I've heard some horror stories regarding men and divorce. I'm only getting one side of the story so I'm unaware how the courts' settle each individual case but the constant negativity has affect my thinking. I think I'd want to be living with someone for at least a year or 2 before lending serious thought to it.

fits wrote: »

OT You're a researcher right? UK is close to the worst place for researchers imo. Very badly paid and undervalued. Netherlands, Germany, Austria, Nordic countries all have much much better pay and conditions. Language isnt such a barrier either (in fact a lot of departments like having the odd native speaker around). It surprised me to meet people having kids and taking parental leave in the middle of doing their PhDs but can think of two recent examples in the last year (both men), one in Germany, one in Finland. Entirely possible financially apparently.

Yes, I am indeed. Funding for scientific research has suffered serious cuts over the years. Funnily enough, I did apply for a job in Germany once. I didn't get it but it did get me thinking about the language barrier. Austria, Germany and Sweden do have some outstanding research going on in my area so that might be worth looking into. I think I just got comfortable living here.
Regarding parental leave during a PhD, I wouldn't think its' terribly uncommon nowadays as people can be a lot more picky about who they hire and more people are doing them at later stages of life.

SWL · 25-07-2014 10:04AM

fits wrote: »

Jes I dont know, I think this is a very negative thread towards marriage. I cant think of anyone in my network that I think would be happier on their own than in a relationship or married, certainly into middle age and beyond.

I live in both worlds at the moment. In a long term relationship but spend large chunks of time on my own abroad. I much prefer living with someone. I am mid thirties and most of my friends, almost all in fact, are unmarried. Those that are dont have children yet, those that have children arent married. A lot are single. They'd have good careers for the most part and are liberal in outlook I guess. Not the usual. But I do wonder how it will work out in the coming years.

Marriage is a feminine - centric institution, where women have no responsibilities and all the rights and men have no rights and all the responsibilities - granted a little bit of a generalisation on my part, but many separated men would concur.

LordNorbury · 25-07-2014 10:09AM

SWL wrote: »

Marriage is a feminine - centric institution, where women have no responsibilities and all the rights and men have no rights and all the responsibilities - granted a little bit of a generalisation on my part, but many separated men would concur.

I don't think a single mother who has maybe 3 kids and who's husband has left her for someone else, would agree with you at all there... I know of loads of women who have been left in this situation, they are not well off, usually very much the opposite and the father has fúcked off with someone else and is generally living the high life... Although marriage might not be in place in these situations, generally unmarried mums...

Dial Hard · 25-07-2014 10:10AM

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I've heard some horror stories regarding men and divorce. I'm only getting one side of the story so I'm unaware how the courts' settle each individual case but the constant negativity has affect my thinking. I think I'd want to be living with someone for at least a year or 2 before lending serious thought to it.

I do think that there is a lot of anti-marriage bias in this forum in general, but I think you might be onto something with the "one side of the story" element. We definitely tend to hear more of the horror stories here and I definitely think it has led to this idea that marriage = eventual divorce = automatic kicking for the man in court. But that's not the default position and Irish law has absolutely zero provision for a 50/50 split of assets, even though that's something I've seen stated as fact in here again and again.

I am absolutely not denying the fact that family break-up (and you don't have to be married for this to be the case) can be a financial nuclear bomb for a lot of men. But it's not always the case and it's not automatically going to be the case. I'm living proof of this.

LordNorbury · 25-07-2014 10:22AM

Dial Hard wrote: »

I do think that there is a lot of anti-marriage bias in this forum in general, but I think you might be onto something with the "one side of the story" element. We definitely tend to hear more of the horror stories here and I definitely think it has led to this idea that marriage = eventual divorce = automatic kicking for the man in court. But that's not the default position and Irish law has absolutely zero provision for a 50/50 split of assets, even though that's something I've seen stated as fact in here again and again.

I am absolutely not denying the fact that family break-up (and you don't have to be married for this to be the case) can be a financial nuclear bomb for a lot of men. But it's not always the case and it's not automatically going to be the case. I'm living proof of this.

No it's not "absolutely" the case, not at all, but it is a serious risk you are exposing yourself to, the risks of it not working out are in fairness substantially high. And should that risk come to pass, you are likely to find that it will be hugely disruptive to your life. You will have to fight for access to your kids, you could be kicked out of your home, not to mention the emotional turmoil that comes with all of this. Even if none of this comes to pass, I think there is a view on the thread that when you look around you at married lads, they will very often confide in you that they are basically unhappy and stuck in a fairly mundane situation that they actually regret signing up to, but will plod along, as the cost of doing anything else, not just the financial cost but the rest of it, are more or less prohibitive. I genuinely do not know one single truly happy married couple amongst my circle of friends and family and if I did know one, I'd say it. Yes some of them look seriously rosy from the outside but these are the ones where there is the most fúcked up carry on of them all in my observation.

SWL · 25-07-2014 10:24AM

LordNorbury wrote: »

I don't think a single mother who has maybe 3 kids and who's husband has left her for someone else, would agree with you at all there... I know of loads of women who have been left in this situation, they are not well off, usually very much the opposite and the father has fúcked off with someone else and is generally living the high life... Although marriage might not be in place in these situations, generally unmarried mums...

There are always exceptions but in general if a marriage breakdown occurs and you are a man, you are in for a long hard road of economic slavery, even despite not wanting to end the marriage, most men have to move out of the family home, but continue to pay 50% of the mortgage, child support( this is right and proper) and often 50% of other expenses plus rent for a new home, fight for access to see their children etc.

As for unmarried men with children; with responsibilities comes rights, and unmarried fathers in 2014 Ireland have as much rights as a domestic dog, but that is a whole new thread

LordNorbury · 25-07-2014 10:33AM

SWL wrote: »

There are always exceptions but in general if a marriage breakdown occurs and you are a man, you are in for a long hard road of economic slavery, even despite not wanting to end the marriage, most men have to move out of the family home, but continue to pay 50% of the mortgage, child support( this is right and proper) and often 50% of other expenses plus rent for a new home, fight for access to see their children etc.

As for unmarried men with children; with responsibilities comes rights, and unmarried fathers in 2014 Ireland have as much rights as a domestic dog, but that is a whole new thread

This is the real kicker, I know a guy who was in this situation, a real proper husband and Dad, from as far as I could make out anyway, but she had an affair, the marriage ended, he had to leave the house, but still meet the financial responsibilities that he had to previously meet, as in pay the mortgage on the family home, provide for the cost of bringing up the kids, etc, but then she meets someone else (not the guy she had the affair with) and moves him into the family home after a few months.

This guy (the original husband), had never really been with anyone else apart from his wife, and the speed at which all this started happening around him, it basically left him suicidal and carrying huge emotional pain for years, add into that, the trauma of regular courtroom appearances, etc, to try to have all this ironed out.

I know the thread isn't about divorce, etc, or RI, but as a single guy, you can't help but look at situations such as these and think to yourself, "but for the grace of God, there go fúcking I"...

SWL · 25-07-2014 10:34AM

I recently read a book called "The Rational Male", its about the dynamics in inter gender relationships, won't agree with everything in the book, but its very very interesting, men and women despite what your generation have been brain washed into believing are very different especially in what we want from society and a relationship.

The Author has a blog where you can read most of the book.
http://therationalmale.com/

http://www.amazon.com/The-Rational-Male-Rollo-Tomassi/dp/1492777862/ref=sr_1_sc_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1406284429&sr=8-1-spell&keywords=the+rational+amle

fits · 25-07-2014 10:36AM

SWL wrote: »

There are always exceptions but in general if a marriage breakdown occurs and you are a man, you are in for a long hard road of economic slavery, even despite not wanting to end the marriage, most men have to move out of the family home, but continue to pay 50% of the mortgage, child support( this is right and proper) and often 50% of other expenses plus rent for a new home, fight for access to see their children etc.

. I just don't agree with this. I think it is overstated. Yeah they'll be hammered if wife doesn't work as someone has to pay. If parents are in relatively equal financial positions the financial burden should be proportionate.

As for unmarried men with children; with responsibilities comes rights, and unmarried fathers in 2014 Ireland have as much rights as a domestic dog, but that is a whole new thread

If I get married I would see it as bringing more rights to my partner than I in terms of children etc and therefore would be mostly for his sake. This idea that it is female centric is frankly, bull. Why are gay people pushing for same sex marriage if that is the case?

Dial Hard · 25-07-2014 10:47AM

fits wrote: »

This idea that it is female centric is frankly, bull.

The institute of marriage itself is definitely not female-centric. The aftermath of a break-up, lets say the "family law" institute generally favours the mother (and I say mother because in the vast majority of cases where the man gets a "raw" deal, there's children involved).

Anyway, this is all probably a discussion for another thread, but the reason that family law tends to favour women is because we are not all that far removed from a time when many women were required by law to give up work as soon as they married. This created a society where by and large, the burden of earning fell solely on men and the burden of childcare fell solely on women. And this reality was reflected in the kinds of decisions and orders made by the courts in familial break-up cases.

Now, times have changed, and quite rapidly, but the law and the courts have not caught up with the real world. Legislative change is notoriously slow to come about and judges tend, by and large, to be middle-aged and conservative and this is reflected in the kind of orders they make.

SWL · 25-07-2014 10:47AM

fits wrote: »

. I just don't agree with this. I think it is overstated. Yeah they'll be hammered if wife doesn't work as someone has to pay. If parents are in relatively equal financial positions the financial burden should be proportionate.

If I get married I would see it as bringing more rights to my partner than I in terms of children etc and therefore would be mostly for his sake. This idea that it is female centric is frankly, bull. Why are gay people pushing for same sex marriage if that is the case?

In both cases you have just reinforced my point, if the wife don't work someone has to pay . ergo the ex husband, if the wife decides to give up work, someone has to pay ergo the ex husband, he also has to pay market rent and 50% of the mortgage, plus additional children's costs, all the men I know will do anything for their children so that is a given.

Your second point again reinforces my point, whether married or unmarried a father should have automatic rights and responsibilities to their children, the fact that you see this as a gift to your husband - I don't buy that one.

Lets be honest here no women gets married to give their partner rights and then when he needs to excerise those rights after a marriage breakdown he has to go the legal route. Women marry; like men, for a number of reasons but legal rights are down the list until the fun hits the fan

fits · 25-07-2014 11:00AM

SWL wrote: »

In both cases you have just reinforced my point, if the wife don't work someone has to pay . ergo the ex husband, if the wife decides to give up work, someone has to pay ergo the ex husband, he also has to pay market rent and 50% of the mortgage, plus additional children's costs, all the men I know will do anything for their children so that is a given.

I think we are moving towards times where both men and women are financially independent and less are giving up work. I would be very much against people giving up work anyway tbh. Pension arrangements should be looked after at very least. Perhaps men should be as picky as women are rumoured to be when it comes to their partners prospects.

Lets be honest here no women gets married to give their partner rights

Eh you don't get to decide why people get married. I would say greater legal rights is one of the most common and important ones. I know of one couple who recently got married when she was 8 months pregnant so her partner would have greater rights if anything went wrong during childbirth and automatic guardianship etc. Maybe that situation is changing.

ancapailldorcha · 25-07-2014 11:04AM

Dial Hard wrote: »

I do think that there is a lot of anti-marriage bias in this forum in general, but I think you might be onto something with the "one side of the story" element. We definitely tend to hear more of the horror stories here and I definitely think it has led to this idea that marriage = eventual divorce = automatic kicking for the man in court. But that's not the default position and Irish law has absolutely zero provision for a 50/50 split of assets, even though that's something I've seen stated as fact in here again and again.

I am absolutely not denying the fact that family break-up (and you don't have to be married for this to be the case) can be a financial nuclear bomb for a lot of men. But it's not always the case and it's not automatically going to be the case. I'm living proof of this.

The idea of being a 2 weekend-a-month is nearly enough to scare me into celibacy to be honest. I'd drop this sentiment for the right person of course but I will remain somewhat wary for the time being. I try to think critically about what I hear and read but I think men's and especially father's rights are something that need updating (not saying that women don't have problems or face discrimination of course).

SWL · 25-07-2014 12:18PM

fits wrote: »

I think we are moving towards times where both men and women are financially independent and less are giving up work. I would be very much against people giving up work anyway tbh. Pension arrangements should be looked after at very least. Perhaps men should be as picky as women are rumoured to be when it comes to their partners prospects.

Eh you don't get to decide why people get married. I would say greater legal rights is one of the most common and important ones. I know of one couple who recently got married when she was 8 months pregnant so her partner would have greater rights if anything went wrong during childbirth and automatic guardianship etc. Maybe that situation is changing.

This is going off topic so my final say of this is:

Men are getting picky when it comes to prospective partners so picky that many are avoiding marriage altogether, not because they don't want to legally, financially and sexually commit to one person, but because the cards are stacked against them if it goes wrong and the reasons for marriage failure are varied and not generally gender exclusive either.

I am not deciding why people get married, I am stating a fact that legal rights are way down the list for many people when deciding on marriage, the matter of fathers rights is not changing fast enough, today 90% plus of men in a marriage breakdown with children will be leaving the family home irrespective of which partner called it a day, while society and the legal system forces them to jump through hopes to gain access to their children. The idea that a mother who would deny a child the emotional stability a father can and wants to provide to their children, yet is still viewed by society and the courts as a good parent is truly amazing.

Edit: I should say legal rights are way down the list for men when marrying, no man would enter a commercial business contract so stacked against him as he does in marriage.

fits · 25-07-2014 12:34PM

SWL wrote: »

Edit: I should say legal rights are way down the list for men when marrying, no man would enter a commercial business contract so stacked against him as he does in marriage.

I agree fathers rights have a way to go.

But why exactly do you believe marriage contract is stacked against men?

Potatoeman · 25-07-2014 12:57PM

Dial Hard wrote: »

The institute of marriage itself is definitely not female-centric. The aftermath of a break-up, lets say the "family law" institute generally favours the mother (and I say mother because in the vast majority of cases where the man gets a "raw" deal, there's children involved).

Anyway, this is all probably a discussion for another thread, but the reason that family law tends to favour women is because we are not all that far removed from a time when many women were required by law to give up work as soon as they married. This created a society where by and large, the burden of earning fell solely on men and the burden of childcare fell solely on women. And this reality was reflected in the kinds of decisions and orders made by the courts in familial break-up cases.

Now, times have changed, and quite rapidly, but the law and the courts have not caught up with the real world. Legislative change is notoriously slow to come about and judges tend, by and large, to be middle-aged and conservative and this is reflected in the kind of orders they make.

Many people that are outspokenly pro equality will admit that they dont believe in equality in family law.

I think for men its the thought of losing their home, kids and partner then having to pay for half of everything and their own living costs that is a real factor.

Onthe3rdDay · 25-07-2014 01:15PM

fits wrote: »

Jes I dont know, I think this is a very negative thread towards marriage. I cant think of anyone in my network that I think would be happier on their own than in a relationship or married, certainly into middle age and beyond.

I live in both worlds at the moment. In a long term relationship but spend large chunks of time on my own abroad. I much prefer living with someone. I am mid thirties and most of my friends, almost all in fact, are unmarried. Those that are dont have children yet, those that have children arent married. A lot are single. They'd have good careers for the most part and are liberal in outlook I guess. Not the usual. But I do wonder how it will work out in the coming years.

As you say almost all your friends are unmarried. I'd have agreed with you 15 years ago that most people would be happier in a relationship or Married. However 15 years later, 75% of my friends are married. I can only think of one happy couple I know in Ireland and they're only living together. All the rest have varying levels of misery. Some of the men are so unhappy it can be frightening at times. These individuals were the life and soul of the party a few years before they got married and didn't suffer from depression.

I'm not saying it's easy for women either. One or two female friends give me a call every once and a while during the day, just to talk about anything with another adult. I will say that there appears to be less extended family support for women these days, a lot of the time because those that would have supported them (Mothers, Mothers-in-Law) are out working themselves or for possibly more selfish reasons.

Some say that Irish people let themselves go when they get married but I think a lot of that is the relationship/children wearing people down.

I will say that marriage tends to work better in other places where I have friends, such as Sweden or Germany. However exceptions of Marriage and relationships appears to be different. Here everyone is convinced of the Happy Ever After bit once you get Married. I know one couple here that got Married to resolve problems with the relationship. They're still together 5 years later and very unhappy, but they won't break up as they're terrified of being single.

fits · 25-07-2014 01:24PM

@onthe3rdday were they badly hit by recession? Financial woes are a huge strain and again my age group would have escaped because we were priced out of market in our twenties for the most part.

PucaMama · 25-07-2014 01:28PM

SWL wrote: »

I recently read a book called "The Rational Male", its about the dynamics in inter gender relationships, won't agree with everything in the book, but its very very interesting, men and women despite what your generation have been brain washed into believing are very different especially in what we want from society and a relationship.

The Author has a blog where you can read most of the book.
http://therationalmale.com/

http://www.amazon.com/The-Rational-Male-Rollo-Tomassi/dp/1492777862/ref=sr_1_sc_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1406284429&sr=8-1-spell&keywords=the+rational+amle

i read through his site a bit. some things i do agree on, some things i dont. i agree men and women are very different.

when i read sites like this, i find i get put off when i start seeing phrases like red pill logic and game. also things like calling men betas.all that is mildly irritating, but thats fine we cant agree on everything. the one thing i did find incredibly irritating bordering on disrespectful was the sexual market value for women. market value?!?! on a person?? add to that the reference to return of kings and im afraid we have a bigger difference in opinion.

Onthe3rdDay · 25-07-2014 01:36PM

fits wrote: »

@onthe3rdday were they badly hit by recession? Financial woes are a huge strain and again my age group would have escaped because we were priced out of market in our twenties for the most part.

Indeed in some cases it is money, but again we are back to expectation. You get married and you have to buy a house, settle down, have kids. If you don't you're strange.

However in many cases it's more to do with the guy getting married because he wouldn't be able to hang onto the girl otherwise. None of my single Male friends ever went on about how great their wedding day was going to be or indeed how they had to find a wife and have kids. Almost all my female friends were going on about marriage and children. (there are exceptions of course)

Most of them got married for the wrong reasons and that's the problem plus the exceptions both parties have for the marriage 12 months down the line are very different.

I certainly don't have a perfect life. Being single isn't always the best situation to be in. However I,m shocked how often male and female friends who have been married 3 and 4 years say how lucky I am to be single.

SWL · 25-07-2014 01:41PM

PucaMama wrote: »

i read through his site a bit. some things i do agree on, some things i dont. i agree men and women are very different.

when i read sites like this, i find i get put off when i start seeing phrases like red pill logic and game. also things like calling men betas.all that is mildly irritating, but thats fine we cant agree on everything. the one thing i did find incredibly irritating bordering on disrespectful was the sexual market value for women. market value?!?! on a person?? add to that the reference to return of kings and im afraid we have a bigger difference in opinion.

I read a lot of books , Amazon recommended this one, I don't know why as it not my usual type of book, had a look and bought a kindle version, its ok, tries to be a little too clever, the new terminology is very frustrating to figure out but it certainly has some interesting info, the market place graph is interesting but I am not sure it "plots" men correctly, the theme of a market value for both sexes is not new and you could argue it goes back to the cavemen. but the book is different take on many things

Onthe3rdDay · 25-07-2014 01:41PM

PucaMama wrote: »

i read through his site a bit. some things i do agree on, some things i dont. i agree men and women are very different.

when i read sites like this, i find i get put off when i start seeing phrases like red pill logic and game. also things like calling men betas.all that is mildly irritating, but thats fine we cant agree on everything. the one thing i did find incredibly irritating bordering on disrespectful was the sexual market value for women. market value?!?! on a person?? add to that the reference to return of kings and im afraid we have a bigger difference in opinion.

I have to say there are some good points on that site, but it's written from an American Male perspective. The Dating/Relationship situation over there is very different to Ireland/UK and europe in general. If you read the comments many of the Men on the site don't seem to like Women very much, in fact they don't seem to like most Men either.

Burger Please · 25-07-2014 02:26PM

I have read a lot on boards but never registered. After stumbling across this thread I registered so I could add my 2 cents.

I am a male who is not quite halfway through the estimated lifespan of an American male, I have always lived alone and never found any disadvantages. I can work all day during the week until stupid hours, do whatever I like at the weekend, fly somewhere for a two day trip, get flights at 3am in the morning with no complaints, spend $150 on dinner for one and not have to put up with people giving out. From my point of view, it is great being able to put in almost 100 hour weeks, then doing what I please at the weekend.

I have never quite got the point of a relationship outside of a professional business based one or just a group of mates who you meet every so often, (they tend to be dating or married so, every so often becomes rarely).

And the other great benefit is that my money is MINE.. I am not tight, as in I would buy friends a drink when I go out and that kind of thing..

Overall I think single life is great. And I intend to stay this way.

Wibbs · 25-07-2014 03:08PM

fits wrote: »

I agree fathers rights have a way to go.

But why exactly do you believe marriage contract is stacked against men?

I reckon Fits that a lot of this is down to the more American influenced online media and sites out there. TBH judging by the reading of stats and laws, both state and federal you would want to be cracked in the head to take the risk of divorce in the US, therefore marriage itself is much riskier. The gender landscape and culture around dating and mating is quite a bit different to Ireland. As are the outcomes of divorces. Yes like you say fathers rights are most certainly an issue here, but again the US would be a worse place to be a divorced man with kids.

The whole "men going their own way" is also a US based movement, as are most of the MRA movements and the PUA stuff that engages with both are US based in outlook. Sure there are most certainly non US based guys engaging but it's mostly from an American male perspective.

There does seem to be the bigger sniff of a "gender war" in some quarters in US culture, especially online US culture. A chunk of a generation of men seem to feel alienated, both from women and masculinity and the culture around them. A kind of "Fight Club" where they feel more content around each other. You see that in the forums. The Return of Kings and the like. Mostly it's guys talking with other guys as they would with no women about. Talking shíte, chewing the fat, setting the world to rights, discussing and asking for advice from other men etc. Sure there is more than enough "Eh WTF???" subjects coming along for the ride alright. The near worldwide constant meme of guys thinking their women are horrible and foreign fields are better(including some instructions on how to plough same

). But again I think that's down to some aspects of western culture, especially American culture, and how it regards men and how they regard themselves within it. I get the impression they feel censored and/or pigeon holed, even lost as men within some aspects of that culture and much of the WTF?? stuff is as a reaction to that. While I wouldn't agree with them on many subjects, I can understand why they may hold such points.

Anyway because of this influence I think Irish men are picking this up to some degree and applying it to the local culture, where IMHO and IME the types of things they're talking about while present to some degree, are not present to nearly the same degree. The dating culture in Ireland is very different. It's a helluva lot easier going for a start. Divorce rates are a lot lower here and the courts are usually more balanced(though dad's rights remain a big issue). We've also got more of a welfare state in Ireland. It's much less sink or swim compared to the US and that will influence dating and partner choices, even how successful a guy may be with women. All the "social proofing" stuff is going to be more important in such an environment.

Onthe3rdDay wrote: »

As you say almost all your friends are unmarried. I'd have agreed with you 15 years ago that most people would be happier in a relationship or Married. However 15 years later, 75% of my friends are married. I can only think of one happy couple I know in Ireland and they're only living together. All the rest have varying levels of misery.

Well I would know far more happy couples than that. Yep I do know disasters but in nearly every case they were disasters from very early on. Because of that I'm not against marriage, I am against it for me, but that's where it begins and ends.

I will say that marriage tends to work better in other places where I have friends, such as Sweden or Germany.

Yet both are far ahead of Ireland(one of the lowest in the EU) in the divorce stats and Sweden has the highest divorce rate in the world. Again this can be down to internal worldview. Confirmation bias. We see what we expect to see and what agrees with our existing worldview.

Here everyone is convinced of the Happy Ever After bit once you get Married. I know one couple here that got Married to resolve problems with the relationship. They're still together 5 years later and very unhappy, but they won't break up as they're terrified of being single.

There can be an element of that alright.

PucaMama · 25-07-2014 03:20PM

Wibbs wrote: »

I reckon Fits that a lot of this is down to the more American influenced online media and sites out there. TBH judging by the reading of stats and laws, both state and federal you would want to be cracked in the head to take the risk of divorce in the US, therefore marriage itself is much riskier. The gender landscape and culture around dating and mating is quite a bit different to Ireland. As are the outcomes of divorces. Yes like you say fathers rights are most certainly an issue here, but again the US would be a worse place to be a divorced man with kids.

The whole "men going their own way" is also a US based movement, as are most of the MRA movements and the PUA stuff that engages with both are US based in outlook. Sure there are most certainly non US based guys engaging but it's mostly from an American male perspective.

There does seem to be the bigger sniff of a "gender war" in some quarters in US culture, especially online US culture. A chunk of a generation of men seem to feel alienated, both from women and masculinity and the culture around them. A kind of "Fight Club" where they feel more content around each other. You see that in the forums. The Return of Kings and the like. Mostly it's guys talking with other guys as they would with no women about. Talking shíte, chewing the fat, setting the world to rights, discussing and asking for advice from other men etc. Sure there is more than enough "Eh WTF???" subjects coming along for the ride alright. The near worldwide constant meme of guys thinking their women are horrible and foreign fields are better(including some instructions on how to plough same ). But again I think that's down to some aspects of western culture, especially American culture, and how it regards men and how they regard themselves within it. I get the impression they feel censored and/or pigeon holed, even lost as men within some aspects of that culture and much of the WTF?? stuff is as a reaction to that. While I wouldn't agree with them on many subjects, I can understand why they may hold such points.

Anyway because of this influence I think Irish men are picking this up to some degree and applying it to the local culture, where IMHO and IME the types of things they're talking about while present to some degree, are not present to nearly the same degree. The dating culture in Ireland is very different. It's a helluva lot easier going for a start. Divorce rates are a lot lower here and the courts are usually more balanced(though dad's rights remain a big issue). We've also got more of a welfare state in Ireland. It's much less sink or swim compared to the US and that will influence dating and partner choices, even how successful a guy may be with women. All the "social proofing" stuff is going to be more important in such an environment.

Well I would know far more happy couples than that. Yep I do know disasters but in nearly every case they were disasters from very early on. Because of that I'm not against marriage, I am against it for me, but that's where it begins and ends.

Yet both are far ahead of Ireland(one of the lowest in the EU) in the divorce stats and Sweden has the highest divorce rate in the world. Again this can be down to internal worldview. Confirmation bias. We see what we expect to see and what agrees with our existing worldview.

There can be an element of that alright.

i really wish though that there was more acknowledgement *really dont think i spelled that one right*

of that difference. i dont feel i myself or any women i know fit into the stereotypes of women i often see on those sites. i would consider divorce to be a disaster in a relationship,not a *jackpot* situation i dont look at my boyfriend as an *income* like he should maintain me. im uncomfortable with men thinking all irish/uk women are like that. both men and women have their difficulties in the world. i really dont see why it has to be such a them v us situation.

25-07-2014 03:31PM

Wibbs wrote: »

I dunno A. If I had my life to live over from say 20 I'd aim to make as much money as possible. Get into finance while my brain was still firing at the level required(it's still firing today, but on a different tack). Yes there is more to life than being rich, but being rich to the point where you don't have to work again gives you a magnitude more choices than slaving away for the majority of your life in a 9-5 cubicle worrying about collating reports for some middle manager. Choice is everything. You might dig an office environment but if you've got financial security outside of it you'll likely dig it more. Romance and relationship wise? Sure to quote the Beatles money can't buy you love, but it can buy you extra access to more people including women and again it gives you far more choices. On the other hand it can be more risky too with divorce and such. All I can say is that at various times in my life I had a few bob and there were times when I had feck all, the former was a lot better than the latter. Most of all money gives you choice over a much more valuable asset, time. It's about the only thing you can't earn any more of and on your deathbed you won't say "I wished I had worked more hours".

It's the usual thing, money doesn't make you happy but if you think about any mood you might be in would you rather be in that mood with or without a nice load of money in the bank? :P

25-07-2014 03:33PM

PucaMama wrote: »

i really wish though that there was more acknowledgement *really dont think i spelled that one right* of that difference. i dont feel i myself or any women i know fit into the stereotypes of women i often see on those sites. i would consider divorce to be a disaster in a relationship,not a *jackpot* situation i dont look at my boyfriend as an *income* like he should maintain me. im uncomfortable with men thinking all irish/uk women are like that. both men and women have their difficulties in the world. i really dont see why it has to be such a them v us situation.

The us V them arises because that's what it comes down to. :P I'm pretty cynical about everyone. However there's no man who's ever going to have a chance to destroy my life by legal means while destroying me emotionally. There's plenty of women who potentially could. :P

Onthe3rdDay · 25-07-2014 03:47PM

Wibbs wrote: »

Well I would know far more happy couples than that. Yep I do know disasters but in nearly every case they were disasters from very early on. Because of that I'm not against marriage, I am against it for me, but that's where it begins and ends.

Yet both are far ahead of Ireland(one of the lowest in the EU) in the divorce stats and Sweden has the highest divorce rate in the world. Again this can be down to internal worldview. Confirmation bias. We see what we expect to see and what agrees with our existing worldview.

I can only judge on my friends that are married, and then only on what they tell me. None of us can really know what goes on exactly inside a relationship when we're not directly involved. However, I do know these people are very unhappy and it's almost certainly because they're married.

As for the internal worldview, I agree entirely with this, we all live in our own bubbles and sometimes it can be hard to see a different point of view or way of living. However, this is generally not a subject I think about on a day to day basis. I just live my life as best I can. The realisation has crept up on me that the majority of my Friends in marriages in Ireland are unhappy and it's the exact opposite when I'm in Germany or Sweden. A rational person has to take into consideration that it could just be them seeing this. However I do try to put balance and look at the other point of view when I'm arguing with myself and that's what I personally see.

SWL · 25-07-2014 04:05PM

Wibbs wrote: »

I reckon Fits that a lot of this is down to the more American influenced online media and sites out there. TBH judging by the reading of stats and laws, both state and federal you would want to be cracked in the head to take the risk of divorce in the US, therefore marriage itself is much riskier. The gender landscape and culture around dating and mating is quite a bit different to Ireland. As are the outcomes of divorces. Yes like you say fathers rights are most certainly an issue here, but again the US would be a worse place to be a divorced man with kids.

The whole "men going their own way" is also a US based movement, as are most of the MRA movements and the PUA stuff that engages with both are US based in outlook. Sure there are most certainly non US based guys engaging but it's mostly from an American male perspective.

There does seem to be the bigger sniff of a "gender war" in some quarters in US culture, especially online US culture. A chunk of a generation of men seem to feel alienated, both from women and masculinity and the culture around them. A kind of "Fight Club" where they feel more content around each other. You see that in the forums. The Return of Kings and the like. Mostly it's guys talking with other guys as they would with no women about. Talking shíte, chewing the fat, setting the world to rights, discussing and asking for advice from other men etc. Sure there is more than enough "Eh WTF???" subjects coming along for the ride alright. The near worldwide constant meme of guys thinking their women are horrible and foreign fields are better(including some instructions on how to plough same ). But again I think that's down to some aspects of western culture, especially American culture, and how it regards men and how they regard themselves within it. I get the impression they feel censored and/or pigeon holed, even lost as men within some aspects of that culture and much of the WTF?? stuff is as a reaction to that. While I wouldn't agree with them on many subjects, I can understand why they may hold such points.

Anyway because of this influence I think Irish men are picking this up to some degree and applying it to the local culture, where IMHO and IME the types of things they're talking about while present to some degree, are not present to nearly the same degree. The dating culture in Ireland is very different. It's a helluva lot easier going for a start. Divorce rates are a lot lower here and the courts are usually more balanced(though dad's rights remain a big issue). We've also got more of a welfare state in Ireland. It's much less sink or swim compared to the US and that will influence dating and partner choices, even how successful a guy may be with women. All the "social proofing" stuff is going to be more important in such an environment.

Well I would know far more happy couples than that. Yep I do know disasters but in nearly every case they were disasters from very early on. Because of that I'm not against marriage, I am against it for me, but that's where it begins and ends.

Yet both are far ahead of Ireland(one of the lowest in the EU) in the divorce stats and Sweden has the highest divorce rate in the world. Again this can be down to internal worldview. Confirmation bias. We see what we expect to see and what agrees with our existing worldview.

There can be an element of that alright.

I can't agree with you when you say the courts are more balanced here than the US, certainly in certain States the ex wife can lay claim future money earned even while divorced, but that has also applied in the UK and Irish laws are similar, in most cases; especially with children the wife keeps the family home and the children, even if she has an affair or decides unilaterally the marriage is over, while society and the legal system hold the husband to account emotionally and financially until the children are 18 or 23 that's not balanced that outrageous.

LordNorbury · 25-07-2014 04:12PM

Onthe3rdDay wrote: »

I can only judge on my friends that are married, and then only on what they tell me. None of us can really know what goes on exactly inside a relationship when we're not directly involved. However, I do know these people are very unhappy and it's almost certainly because they're married.

As for the internal worldview, I agree entirely with this, we all live in our own bubbles and sometimes it can be hard to see a different point of view or way of living. However, this is generally not a subject I think about on a day to day basis. I just live my life as best I can. The realisation has crept up on me that the majority of my Friends in marriages in Ireland are unhappy and it's the exact opposite when I'm in Germany or Sweden. A rational person has to take into consideration that it could just be them seeing this. However I do try to put balance and look at the other point of view when I'm arguing with myself and that's what I personally see.

I fully agree, but do you not think that a huge part of why this might be so, is down to financial considerations? The married folks I know who have kids, they seem to be really really struggling financially, every week seems to be a mission just to make it to the next week. It is no existence really I think, but the stress that must come from trying to raise 2 young kids in Ireland today with 2 parents on the average industrial wage (if they are lucky), I reckon is the cause of a lot of this marriage misery that I can personally vouch for seeing myself.

I'm sure close to this stress, is the stress of knowing that to do the right thing by your kids, that you cannot really leave, if they are young, and it seems to dawn on some of my mates that they just regretted ever settling down and getting married at all. It is when I have a chat with some of them about my single lifestyle, that it almost seems like I am rubbing salt into deep wounds at times, the reaction I get from some of my married mates.

Single life as a guy...

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