fits wrote: » Jes I dont know, I think this is a very negative thread towards marriage. I cant think of anyone in my network that I think would be happier on their own than in a relationship or married, certainly into middle age and beyond. I live in both worlds at the moment. In a long term relationship but spend large chunks of time on my own abroad. I much prefer living with someone. I am mid thirties and most of my friends, almost all in fact, are unmarried. Those that are dont have children yet, those that have children arent married. A lot are single. They'd have good careers for the most part and are liberal in outlook I guess. Not the usual. But I do wonder how it will work out in the coming years.
fits wrote: » OT You're a researcher right? UK is close to the worst place for researchers imo. Very badly paid and undervalued. Netherlands, Germany, Austria, Nordic countries all have much much better pay and conditions. Language isnt such a barrier either (in fact a lot of departments like having the odd native speaker around). It surprised me to meet people having kids and taking parental leave in the middle of doing their PhDs but can think of two recent examples in the last year (both men), one in Germany, one in Finland. Entirely possible financially apparently.
SWL wrote: » Marriage is a feminine - centric institution, where women have no responsibilities and all the rights and men have no rights and all the responsibilities - granted a little bit of a generalisation on my part, but many separated men would concur.
ancapailldorcha wrote: » I've heard some horror stories regarding men and divorce. I'm only getting one side of the story so I'm unaware how the courts' settle each individual case but the constant negativity has affect my thinking. I think I'd want to be living with someone for at least a year or 2 before lending serious thought to it.
Dial Hard wrote: » I do think that there is a lot of anti-marriage bias in this forum in general, but I think you might be onto something with the "one side of the story" element. We definitely tend to hear more of the horror stories here and I definitely think it has led to this idea that marriage = eventual divorce = automatic kicking for the man in court. But that's not the default position and Irish law has absolutely zero provision for a 50/50 split of assets, even though that's something I've seen stated as fact in here again and again. I am absolutely not denying the fact that family break-up (and you don't have to be married for this to be the case) can be a financial nuclear bomb for a lot of men. But it's not always the case and it's not automatically going to be the case. I'm living proof of this.
LordNorbury wrote: » I don't think a single mother who has maybe 3 kids and who's husband has left her for someone else, would agree with you at all there... I know of loads of women who have been left in this situation, they are not well off, usually very much the opposite and the father has fúcked off with someone else and is generally living the high life... Although marriage might not be in place in these situations, generally unmarried mums...
SWL wrote: » There are always exceptions but in general if a marriage breakdown occurs and you are a man, you are in for a long hard road of economic slavery, even despite not wanting to end the marriage, most men have to move out of the family home, but continue to pay 50% of the mortgage, child support( this is right and proper) and often 50% of other expenses plus rent for a new home, fight for access to see their children etc. As for unmarried men with children; with responsibilities comes rights, and unmarried fathers in 2014 Ireland have as much rights as a domestic dog, but that is a whole new thread
SWL wrote: » There are always exceptions but in general if a marriage breakdown occurs and you are a man, you are in for a long hard road of economic slavery, even despite not wanting to end the marriage, most men have to move out of the family home, but continue to pay 50% of the mortgage, child support( this is right and proper) and often 50% of other expenses plus rent for a new home, fight for access to see their children etc.
As for unmarried men with children; with responsibilities comes rights, and unmarried fathers in 2014 Ireland have as much rights as a domestic dog, but that is a whole new thread
fits wrote: » This idea that it is female centric is frankly, bull.
fits wrote: » . I just don't agree with this. I think it is overstated. Yeah they'll be hammered if wife doesn't work as someone has to pay. If parents are in relatively equal financial positions the financial burden should be proportionate. If I get married I would see it as bringing more rights to my partner than I in terms of children etc and therefore would be mostly for his sake. This idea that it is female centric is frankly, bull. Why are gay people pushing for same sex marriage if that is the case?
SWL wrote: » In both cases you have just reinforced my point, if the wife don't work someone has to pay . ergo the ex husband, if the wife decides to give up work, someone has to pay ergo the ex husband, he also has to pay market rent and 50% of the mortgage, plus additional children's costs, all the men I know will do anything for their children so that is a given.
Lets be honest here no women gets married to give their partner rights
fits wrote: » I think we are moving towards times where both men and women are financially independent and less are giving up work. I would be very much against people giving up work anyway tbh. Pension arrangements should be looked after at very least. Perhaps men should be as picky as women are rumoured to be when it comes to their partners prospects. Eh you don't get to decide why people get married. I would say greater legal rights is one of the most common and important ones. I know of one couple who recently got married when she was 8 months pregnant so her partner would have greater rights if anything went wrong during childbirth and automatic guardianship etc. Maybe that situation is changing.
SWL wrote: » Edit: I should say legal rights are way down the list for men when marrying, no man would enter a commercial business contract so stacked against him as he does in marriage.
Dial Hard wrote: » The institute of marriage itself is definitely not female-centric. The aftermath of a break-up, lets say the "family law" institute generally favours the mother (and I say mother because in the vast majority of cases where the man gets a "raw" deal, there's children involved). Anyway, this is all probably a discussion for another thread, but the reason that family law tends to favour women is because we are not all that far removed from a time when many women were required by law to give up work as soon as they married. This created a society where by and large, the burden of earning fell solely on men and the burden of childcare fell solely on women. And this reality was reflected in the kinds of decisions and orders made by the courts in familial break-up cases. Now, times have changed, and quite rapidly, but the law and the courts have not caught up with the real world. Legislative change is notoriously slow to come about and judges tend, by and large, to be middle-aged and conservative and this is reflected in the kind of orders they make.
SWL wrote: » I recently read a book called "The Rational Male", its about the dynamics in inter gender relationships, won't agree with everything in the book, but its very very interesting, men and women despite what your generation have been brain washed into believing are very different especially in what we want from society and a relationship. The Author has a blog where you can read most of the book.http://therationalmale.com/http://www.amazon.com/The-Rational-Male-Rollo-Tomassi/dp/1492777862/ref=sr_1_sc_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1406284429&sr=8-1-spell&keywords=the+rational+amle
fits wrote: » @onthe3rdday were they badly hit by recession? Financial woes are a huge strain and again my age group would have escaped because we were priced out of market in our twenties for the most part.
PucaMama wrote: » i read through his site a bit. some things i do agree on, some things i dont. i agree men and women are very different. when i read sites like this, i find i get put off when i start seeing phrases like red pill logic and game. also things like calling men betas.all that is mildly irritating, but thats fine we cant agree on everything. the one thing i did find incredibly irritating bordering on disrespectful was the sexual market value for women. market value?!?! on a person?? add to that the reference to return of kings and im afraid we have a bigger difference in opinion.
fits wrote: » I agree fathers rights have a way to go. But why exactly do you believe marriage contract is stacked against men?
Onthe3rdDay wrote: » As you say almost all your friends are unmarried. I'd have agreed with you 15 years ago that most people would be happier in a relationship or Married. However 15 years later, 75% of my friends are married. I can only think of one happy couple I know in Ireland and they're only living together. All the rest have varying levels of misery.
I will say that marriage tends to work better in other places where I have friends, such as Sweden or Germany.
Here everyone is convinced of the Happy Ever After bit once you get Married. I know one couple here that got Married to resolve problems with the relationship. They're still together 5 years later and very unhappy, but they won't break up as they're terrified of being single.
Wibbs wrote: » I reckon Fits that a lot of this is down to the more American influenced online media and sites out there. TBH judging by the reading of stats and laws, both state and federal you would want to be cracked in the head to take the risk of divorce in the US, therefore marriage itself is much riskier. The gender landscape and culture around dating and mating is quite a bit different to Ireland. As are the outcomes of divorces. Yes like you say fathers rights are most certainly an issue here, but again the US would be a worse place to be a divorced man with kids. The whole "men going their own way" is also a US based movement, as are most of the MRA movements and the PUA stuff that engages with both are US based in outlook. Sure there are most certainly non US based guys engaging but it's mostly from an American male perspective. There does seem to be the bigger sniff of a "gender war" in some quarters in US culture, especially online US culture. A chunk of a generation of men seem to feel alienated, both from women and masculinity and the culture around them. A kind of "Fight Club" where they feel more content around each other. You see that in the forums. The Return of Kings and the like. Mostly it's guys talking with other guys as they would with no women about. Talking shíte, chewing the fat, setting the world to rights, discussing and asking for advice from other men etc. Sure there is more than enough "Eh WTF???" subjects coming along for the ride alright. The near worldwide constant meme of guys thinking their women are horrible and foreign fields are better(including some instructions on how to plough same ). But again I think that's down to some aspects of western culture, especially American culture, and how it regards men and how they regard themselves within it. I get the impression they feel censored and/or pigeon holed, even lost as men within some aspects of that culture and much of the WTF?? stuff is as a reaction to that. While I wouldn't agree with them on many subjects, I can understand why they may hold such points. Anyway because of this influence I think Irish men are picking this up to some degree and applying it to the local culture, where IMHO and IME the types of things they're talking about while present to some degree, are not present to nearly the same degree. The dating culture in Ireland is very different. It's a helluva lot easier going for a start. Divorce rates are a lot lower here and the courts are usually more balanced(though dad's rights remain a big issue). We've also got more of a welfare state in Ireland. It's much less sink or swim compared to the US and that will influence dating and partner choices, even how successful a guy may be with women. All the "social proofing" stuff is going to be more important in such an environment. Well I would know far more happy couples than that. Yep I do know disasters but in nearly every case they were disasters from very early on. Because of that I'm not against marriage, I am against it for me, but that's where it begins and ends. Yet both are far ahead of Ireland(one of the lowest in the EU) in the divorce stats and Sweden has the highest divorce rate in the world. Again this can be down to internal worldview. Confirmation bias. We see what we expect to see and what agrees with our existing worldview. There can be an element of that alright.
Wibbs wrote: » I dunno A. If I had my life to live over from say 20 I'd aim to make as much money as possible. Get into finance while my brain was still firing at the level required(it's still firing today, but on a different tack). Yes there is more to life than being rich, but being rich to the point where you don't have to work again gives you a magnitude more choices than slaving away for the majority of your life in a 9-5 cubicle worrying about collating reports for some middle manager. Choice is everything. You might dig an office environment but if you've got financial security outside of it you'll likely dig it more. Romance and relationship wise? Sure to quote the Beatles money can't buy you love, but it can buy you extra access to more people including women and again it gives you far more choices. On the other hand it can be more risky too with divorce and such. All I can say is that at various times in my life I had a few bob and there were times when I had feck all, the former was a lot better than the latter. Most of all money gives you choice over a much more valuable asset, time. It's about the only thing you can't earn any more of and on your deathbed you won't say "I wished I had worked more hours".
PucaMama wrote: » i really wish though that there was more acknowledgement *really dont think i spelled that one right* of that difference. i dont feel i myself or any women i know fit into the stereotypes of women i often see on those sites. i would consider divorce to be a disaster in a relationship,not a *jackpot* situation i dont look at my boyfriend as an *income* like he should maintain me. im uncomfortable with men thinking all irish/uk women are like that. both men and women have their difficulties in the world. i really dont see why it has to be such a them v us situation.
Wibbs wrote: » Well I would know far more happy couples than that. Yep I do know disasters but in nearly every case they were disasters from very early on. Because of that I'm not against marriage, I am against it for me, but that's where it begins and ends. Yet both are far ahead of Ireland(one of the lowest in the EU) in the divorce stats and Sweden has the highest divorce rate in the world. Again this can be down to internal worldview. Confirmation bias. We see what we expect to see and what agrees with our existing worldview.
Onthe3rdDay wrote: » I can only judge on my friends that are married, and then only on what they tell me. None of us can really know what goes on exactly inside a relationship when we're not directly involved. However, I do know these people are very unhappy and it's almost certainly because they're married. As for the internal worldview, I agree entirely with this, we all live in our own bubbles and sometimes it can be hard to see a different point of view or way of living. However, this is generally not a subject I think about on a day to day basis. I just live my life as best I can. The realisation has crept up on me that the majority of my Friends in marriages in Ireland are unhappy and it's the exact opposite when I'm in Germany or Sweden. A rational person has to take into consideration that it could just be them seeing this. However I do try to put balance and look at the other point of view when I'm arguing with myself and that's what I personally see.
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