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Israel bombs 160 sites in Gaza overnight. Mod Warnings in First Post.

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Comments

  • #392
    seanaway
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 646 ✭✭✭seanaway


    RiteofPassage wrote: »
    I think Israel should stop using Arabic states as a benchmark.

    Try Denmark, New Zealand, ect ect.

    The Jews could of set up a nation anywhere, and be successful. The reason they chose the middle of a hornets nest is simply religious. (and foolish)

    They tried lots of places.

    It ended in a holocost after several thousand years of pogroms.

    Of course, they didn't actually 'choose' Israel. It says in any good history book that they were in 'Israel/Palestine etc... WAAAAAYYYY before New Zealand/Denmark/etc... were places on a map.

    Here's a question:

    Why is it a hornet's nest?

    Possible answer:

    Because Islamic fundamentalists and brainwashed/ uninformed individuals won't leave Jews live in peace. Which they have always done when left alone. Maybe that's why Egypt hasn't been attacked since Camp David.


  • #393
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    seanaway wrote: »
    They tried lots of places.

    It ended in a holocost after several thousand years of pogroms.

    Of course, they didn't actually 'choose' Israel. It says in any good history book that they were in 'Israel/Palestine etc... WAAAAAYYYY before New Zealand/Denmark/etc... were places on a map.

    Here's a question:

    Why is it a hornet's nest?

    Possible answer:

    Because Islamic fundamentalists and brainwashed/ uninformed individuals won't leave Jews live in peace. Which they have always done when left alone. Maybe that's why Egypt hasn't been attacked since Camp David.

    If you'd be as good as to get back to me on this.
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=91325039&postcount=390

    I'm confused as to why you keep referring to "Jews" in place of the state of Israel, Israelis.


  • #394
    RiteofPassage
    Closed Accounts Posts: 42 ✭RiteofPassage


    seanaway wrote: »
    They tried lots of places.

    It ended in a holocost after several thousand years of pogroms.

    Of course, they didn't actually 'choose' Israel. It says in any good history book that they were in 'Israel/Palestine etc... WAAAAAYYYY before New Zealand/Denmark/etc... were places on a map.

    Here's a question:

    Why is it a hornet's nest?

    Possible answer:

    Because Islamic fundamentalists and brainwashed/ uninformed individuals won't leave Jews live in peace. Which they have always done when left alone. Maybe that's why Egypt hasn't been attacked since Camp David.


    If that is the case, then the Indians in America should rule the USA. And catholic in Northern Ireland should own the country as a catholic state.

    The Jews had not been in Palestine for 2000 years. The Jews would of been able to prosper in Germany had Germany not lost WW1.

    The German's lost the war due to the entry of United States, who's policies have always been heavily influenced by Jews.

    The USA could easily accommodate all Jews, and they would be able to prosper. But like Golda Meir. Jews decided to go to a place that their traceable families had never lived. The reason for this was their Jewish belief.

    Its not about a place to live for Jews, but the re-establishment of Jewish State called Israel. They believe that this will lead to the coming Messiah, Jewish World rule, and peace on earth. Noble hopes I suppose. But dangerous to do so much in name of religion.


  • #395
    BobbyPropane
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,306 ✭✭✭BobbyPropane


    http://blogs.aljazeera.com/topic/gaza/view-live-stream-gaza

    This is a livestream of Gaza, multiple sires, explosions and helicopters. The sound of war really is horrible


  • #396
    BlaasForRafa
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,020 ✭✭✭BlaasForRafa


    RiteofPassage wrote: »
    Why did she need to move to Israel and be forced into armed conflict with the indigenous inhabitants?

    If you're that curious, her autobiography is available for quite a reasonable price http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/offer-listing/0860073947/ref=dp_olp_used?ie=UTF8&condition=used


    And in case it slips by peoples attention, 3 people have been charged with the murder of Mohammed Abu Khadir - http://www.bbc.com/news/28347001
    Perhaps if the palestinians had given up the killers of the 3 jewish boys this crisis may not have happened.


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  • #397
    RiteofPassage
    Closed Accounts Posts: 42 ✭RiteofPassage


    I agree she was an amazing woman. I just don't understand the need to move from Prosperous life to war-zone.

    I suspect religious beliefs. Look I don't doubt the ability of Jews, maybe there is some truth in their religion as I don't think they would be easily duped.

    However for some reason the current conflict turns my stomach. It just feels wrong to me.


  • #398
    bumper234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,250 ✭✭✭✭bumper234


    BlaasForRafa wrote: »
    If you're that curious, her autobiography is available for quite a reasonable price http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/offer-listing/0860073947/ref=dp_olp_used?ie=UTF8&condition=used


    And in case it slips by peoples attention, 3 people have been charged with the murder of Mohammed Abu Khadir - http://www.bbc.com/news/28347001
    Perhaps if the palestinians had given up the killers of the 3 jewish boys this crisis may not have happened.

    Will Israel give up the killers of the 8 children who have died in the last couple of days?


  • #399
    SeaBreezes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,554 ✭✭✭SeaBreezes


    Nodin wrote: »
    Israel is not a theocracy.

    And yet, according to the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs website:

    A non-Jew can get citizenship through naturalization by
    1. residing in Israel for three years out of five years preceding the day they submit an application

    2. Intending on settling in Israel

    3. And have renounced their nationality of the country they previously lived in.

    Jews however (anyone who is born to a Jewish mother or has converted to Judaism and is not a member of another religion) can become Israeli citizens immediately upon arrival to Israel unless they

    1. Engage in activity directed against the Jewish people
    2. May endanger public health or the security of the state
    3. Or have a criminal past that is likely to endanger public welfare.

    So, convert to my religion and I will treat you differently.. Says it all really..


  • #400
    seanaway
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 646 ✭✭✭seanaway


    SeaBreezes wrote: »
    And yet, according to the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs website:

    A non-Jew can get citizenship through naturalization by
    1. residing in Israel for three years out of five years preceding the day they submit an application

    2. Intending on settling in Israel

    3. And have renounced their nationality of the country they previously lived in.

    Jews however (anyone who is born to a Jewish mother or has converted to Judaism and is not a member of another religion) can become Israeli citizens immediately upon arrival to Israel unless they

    1. Engage in activity directed against the Jewish people
    2. May endanger public health or the security of the state
    3. Or have a criminal past that is likely to endanger public welfare.

    So, convert to my religion and I will treat you differently.. Says it all really..

    All countries have immigration rules. Muslims can live in Israel but...do you think a Jew could emigrate and be allowed citizenship in, let's say Saudi Arabia?

    Democracy in Israel.
    None in:
    Syria
    Saudi Arabia
    Yemen

    Or maybe they should ty applying to Iran? Oops No. Sorry. Sharia law there. oops again... isn't that real theocracy in action?


  • #401
    wes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,749 ✭✭✭✭wes


    bumper234 wrote: »
    Will Israel give up the killers of the 8 children who have died in the last couple of days?

    Oh, and lets not forget the killers of the 2 Palestinian teenagers who were murdered by the IDF, before the kidnap of the settler teenagers. The Israeli's haven't given them up either.


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  • #402
    wes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,749 ✭✭✭✭wes


    seanaway wrote: »
    All countries have immigration rules. Muslims can live in Israel but...do you think a Jew could emigrate and be allowed citizenship in, let's say Saudi Arabia?

    Democracy in Israel.
    None in:
    Syria
    Saudi Arabia
    Yemen

    Or maybe they should ty applying to Iran? Oops No. Sorry. Sharia law there. oops again... isn't that real theocracy in action?

    Your post is the height of hypocrisy and whataboutery. How is Israel's given special treatment to those of the Jewish Religion, not an example of a Religious law? Either its wrong when anyone does it, or its ok for everyone.


  • #403
    FTA69
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,252 ✭✭✭FTA69


    seanaway wrote: »
    All countries have immigration rules. Muslims can live in Israel but...do you think a Jew could emigrate and be allowed citizenship in, let's say Saudi Arabia?

    Democracy in Israel.
    None in:
    Syria
    Saudi Arabia
    Yemen

    Or maybe they should ty applying to Iran? Oops No. Sorry. Sharia law there. oops again... isn't that real theocracy in action?

    What nonsense is this? Do you realise that Jews can be found in nearly every Muslim country in the world and that there are Jewish MPs in Iran? Are you familiar with the fact that Jews took refuge in and thrived in the Islamic World for centuries?


  • #404
    seanaway
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 646 ✭✭✭seanaway


    wes wrote: »
    Your post is the height of hypocrisy and whataboutery. How is Israel's given special treatment to those of the Jewish Religion, not an example of a Religious law? Either its wrong when anyone does it, or its ok for everyone.
    that's an emotional response. you haven;'t answered teh question posed about Iran etc...


  • #405
    seanaway
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 646 ✭✭✭seanaway


    FTA69 wrote: »
    What nonsense is this? Do you realise that Jews can be found in nearly every Muslim country in the world and that there are Jewish MPs in Iran? Are you familiar with the fact that Jews took refuge in and thrived in the Islamic World for centuries?
    Yes I am.

    The reply was about Israeli laws on immigration.


  • #406
    seanaway
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 646 ✭✭✭seanaway


    Nodin wrote: »
    Why are you putting all those groups together?

    You realise the PLO has effectively been on ceasefire for years now?

    Did they not all at one time send people into battle? I don't think the Mr Arafat ever hesitated before sending people to hijack airliners etc...
    That's why it's in there.


  • #407
    seanaway
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 646 ✭✭✭seanaway


    Nodin wrote: »
    If you'd be as good as to get back to me on this.
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=91325039&postcount=390

    I'm confused as to why you keep referring to "Jews" in place of the state of Israel, Israelis.
    Because it is/was/has been the stated aim of opponents of Israel and the propaganda used agaianst Israel usually avoids the use of teh words Jew/Jewish so that those trying to push Jews into the sea can't be called anti-semitic.

    It would put off those who throw their hands up in horror at one side of the atrocities being commited by both sides. Generally, these are people who, though well intentioned, have never spent any real time in a land held holy by three major religions and therefore rely on one sided storytelling to achieve 'understanding' of the reality on the ground.

    Dr. Fadhil Jamali, Iraqi Representative to the United Nations, speaking to the Arab League, February 6, 1955:
    I asked them (Arab League members) how Palestine was lost. It had been lost for two basic reasons: one, because we deluded ourselves by underestimating the power of our opponent and by thinking that the Jews were not powerful. The highest official in the League said that with 300 soldiers or North African Volunteers we could throw the Jews into the sea. The war started and His Excellency then said that with 3,000 North African Volunteers we could throw them into the sea. The second reason was that we thought that we were strong enough to face the world but the fact was that we did not estimate our own strength correctly. This then was the issue of Palestine. It seemed a trifling thing at the time but we did not know that behind the Jews of Palestine stood World Zionism with its resources in every major country.


  • #408
    wes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,749 ✭✭✭✭wes


    seanaway wrote: »
    that's an emotional response. you haven;'t answered teh question posed about Iran etc...

    A simple statement of fact, and Iran is irrelevant to a thread about Israel and Gaza, and is just a typical attempt to try and change the subject.

    Israel is no secular state, the law on Jewish immigration is just one example of that, another is the lack of civil marriage, then there are the constant statement by Israeli politicians that Israel is a "Jewish state", there are also the unequal laws in regards to Palestinians:

    Court upholds law banning Palestinian spouses from living in Israel

    The entire notion that Iran is this or that is irrelevant to what Israel is doing, its just an attempt to distract and an typical tactic used by those trying to defend Israels atrocities against Palestinians.


  • #409
    wes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,749 ✭✭✭✭wes


    seanaway wrote: »
    Dr. Fadhil Jamali, Iraqi Representative to the United Nations, speaking to

    Ah the history game, 2 can play at that.

    Here is a quote from the late 1800s from the father of Zionism:
    As early as 1895, Theodor Herzl, the prophet and founder of Zionism, wrote in his diary in anticipation of the establishment of the Jewish state: "We shall try to spirit the penniless [Arab] population across the border by procuring employment for it in the transit countries, while denying it any employment in our country ... The removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly."

    Another from the 1st Israeli Prime Minister:
    Ben-Gurion hailed Lord Peel's recommendations: "The compulsory transfer of the Arabs from the valleys of the proposed Jewish state could give us something which we never had ... during the days of the First and Second Temples ... an opportunity which we never dared to dream in our wildest imaginings." In August 1937 he told the emergency 20th Zionist Congress, convened in Zurich: "We do not want to dispossess, [but piecemeal] transfer of population [through Jewish purchase and the removal of Arab tenant farmers] occurred previously, in the [Jezreel] Valley, in the Sharon and in other places ... Now a transfer of a completely different scope will have to be carried out ... Transfer is what will make possible a comprehensive [Jewish] settlement programme. Thankfully, the Arab people have vast empty areas [in Transjordan and Iraq]. Jewish power, which grows steadily, will also increase our possibilities to carry out the transfer on a large scale."

    It should be noted that Zionism was a European ideology, and the vast majority of Zionists were from Europe, and that there colonial project is no different than the European colonial project in the America's.

    So long before a single Zionist arrived in Palestine, the intention from the leaders from the start was always removal of the Palestinians living there. The entire notion that the Palestinians should have accepted a European colonial project at the time is absurd.


  • #410
    seanaway
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 646 ✭✭✭seanaway


    wes wrote: »
    A simple statement of fact, and Iran is irrelevant to a thread about Israel and Gaza, and is just a typical attempt to try and change the subject.

    Israel is no secular state, the law on Jewish immigration is just one example of that, another is the lack of civil marriage, then there are the constant statement by Israeli politicians that Israel is a "Jewish state", there are also the unequal laws in regards to Palestinians:

    Court upholds law banning Palestinian spouses from living in Israel

    The entire notion that Iran is this or that is irrelevant to what Israel is doing, its just an attempt to distract and an typical tactic used by those trying to defend Israels atrocities against Palestinians.

    Who said it was secular?
    I said democratic.

    You can be democratic without being secular.
    Ireland did it for years.

    As for changing the subject- if it isn't about religion then it's about an Arab-Israeli.

    Bringing in other arab states isn't changing the subject therefore. It is giving the wider context to the issues at hand.

    If you think it isn't religious however, ask yourself this question.

    'Why did Hamas pick Israeli Jews and not Israeli Muslims to kidnap and murder?/


  • #411
    wes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,749 ✭✭✭✭wes


    seanaway wrote: »
    Who said it was secular?
    I said democratic.

    You can be democratic without being secular.
    Ireland did it for years.

    Democracies are not a case of majority rule by one ethnic groups over another. Israel is no democracy either.
    seanaway wrote: »
    As for changing the subject- if it isn't about religion then it's about an Arab-Israeli.

    You were going on about Iran, so yes you were trying to change the subject, a well worn tactic used in these threads.
    seanaway wrote: »
    Bringing in other arab states isn't changing the subject therefore. It is giving the wider context to the issues at hand.

    Iran is not an Arab state, and has 0 involvement in the current conflict in Gaza, so yes its most certainly irrelevant.
    seanaway wrote: »
    If you think it isn't religious however, ask yourself this question.

    'Why did Hamas pick Israeli Jews and not Israeli Muslims to kidnap and murder?/

    Hamas didn't kidnap anyone, there is 0 evidence of this, and yet this claim that no proof has yet to be provided, is still being made. So firstly your claim is simply false, as Israel has provided 0 proof of Hamas involvement, and news reports (that Netanyahu gagged the Israeli media from reporting for weeks) suggested that actually Netanyahu, knew they were dead from the get go, and Hamas were not the culprits, and yet he decided to start the most recent conflict for his own political aims.

    Also, the 3 settler teenagers (one of whom was a soldier btw, and according to Israel, if they were Palestinians they would consider them valid targets it should be noted) were likely kidnapped and murdered as revenge, due to being from the Hebron settlement, who regularly attack Palestinians.

    So, your entire premise completely flawed, as its lacks any basis in the currently available facts.


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  • #412
    RiteofPassage
    Closed Accounts Posts: 42 ✭RiteofPassage


    Jews believe the bible.

    Bible tells them their God'd chosen people and future world leaders. (maybe true)

    Do the math- hence the reason for apartheid state.


  • #413
    seanaway
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 646 ✭✭✭seanaway


    WES:Ah the history game, 2 can play at that.

    Far too serious a topic for a game. I was not quoting history to score points. I was answering a question posted about why i mentioned 'Jewish state' instead of 'Israeli State'.


    WES:Democracies are not a case of majority rule by one ethnic groups over another. Israel is no democracy either.

    Eh. I think you'll find that the point of democracy is that it;s 'majority rule'.
    At least in Israel there is a mandate from people to politicians - in free and fair elections. That is , like it or not, an exercise in real democracy. Whether on likes the outcome or not is neither here nor there.

    I agree Iran is not an Arab state and has no place in Israeli affairs. A pity some of the nutty fundamentalists who receive training there wouldn't tell them so.


  • #414
    RiteofPassage
    Closed Accounts Posts: 42 ✭RiteofPassage


    Israeli elections are not really democracy. its set up as a Jewish majority state.

    Imagine if protestants were allowed to take measures that ensured that they maintained 60% population in Northern Ireland. There would be murder.

    A big reason for de-escalation of conflict in North is equality and secularism.

    Its definitely a happier place now.


  • #415
    seanaway
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 646 ✭✭✭seanaway


    RiteofPassage wrote: »
    Israeli elections are not really democracy. its set up as a Jewish majority state.

    Imagine if protestants were allowed to take measures that ensured that they maintained 60% population in Northern Ireland. There would be murder.

    A big reason for de-escalation of conflict in North is equality and secularism.

    Its definitely a happier place now.

    So by that reasoning Palestine (de facto state/ Gaza-West BAnk)is not democratic either - right?


  • #416
    RiteofPassage
    Closed Accounts Posts: 42 ✭RiteofPassage


    seanaway wrote: »
    So by that reasoning Palestine is not democratic either - right?

    Palestine never existed in the past or present. So it is neither a democracy or anything else.

    it was never, and will never be an independent state in my opinion.


  • #417
    seanaway
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 646 ✭✭✭seanaway


    RiteofPassage wrote: »
    Palestine never existed in the past or present. So it is neither a democracy or anything else.

    it was never, and will never be an independent state in my opinion.

    So in other words all this Hamas stuff is aboout wnating a state that never actally existed then - whereas Israel has.

    Maybe someone should tell them to stop inventing this Palestinian homeland then and just live in peace within the state of Israel - just as many other arabs do.


  • #418
    RiteofPassage
    Closed Accounts Posts: 42 ✭RiteofPassage


    If I was Israeli, I wouldn't be using an Arab state as a benchmark on how to run my democracy.

    The Palestinians obviously cannot organize a piss-up in a brewery. There is a full blown invasion of their territory and they are not offering any resistance. I doubt they are capable at all, of running a democracy, or anything else for that matter.


  • #419
    seanaway
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 646 ✭✭✭seanaway


    RiteofPassage wrote: »
    If I was Israeli, I wouldn't be using an Arab state as a benchmark on how to run my democracy.

    The Palestinians obviously cannot organize a piss-up in a brewery. There is a full blown invasion of their territory and they are not offering any resistance. I doubt they are capable at all, of running a democracy, or anything else for that matter.

    We agree on that then. So why not just let the Israelis run things for them? A fact is this.

    Israelis want peace. They signed a deal with Egypt and not a shot fired between them since.

    I met hundreds of Israelis and Arabs/Palestinians in my time over there. One thing the young Israeli soldiers said to me over and over was all they wanted was to be young. No conscription. No shooting. No suicide bombings. and so on.

    Are there fundamentalists on both sides who would not concur with these sentiments ? Absolutely.

    The one thing that has been proven is that when Israel is left alone - it leaves others alone.

    The same cannot be said of the hostile countries surrounding it.

    It was Hamas who rejected the recent peace moves not Israel.

    Hamas does not want peace - it wants power.

    As I have said in other posts.

    There are many well meaning people out there who are being used by Hamas.

    What they are doing is dangerous. To legitimise a fundamentalist group will not serve the Palestinians who will have to live with them. Quite the opposite. Look at those who have escaped ISIS and what they have to say.
    Look at the Taliban - welcomed by those who thought they were liberators.

    If history has taught us anything it is that those who allow themselves to be placated and succumb to fundamentalist thinking in any guise are like those who feed the crocodile hoping it will eat them last.


  • #420
    wes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,749 ✭✭✭✭wes


    seanaway wrote: »
    Far too serious a topic for a game. I was not quoting history to score points. I was answering a question posted about why i mentioned 'Jewish state' instead of 'Israeli State'.

    Apologies, I misunderstood.
    seanaway wrote: »
    Eh. I think you'll find that the point of democracy is that it;s 'majority rule'.

    I would disagree, democracy is suppose to represent everyone, and not just the majority. Giving preferential treatment to one group over another is not something a democracy does.
    seanaway wrote: »
    At least in Israel there is a mandate from people to politicians - in free and fair elections. That is , like it or not, an exercise in real democracy. Whether on likes the outcome or not is neither here nor there.

    It not about whether I like the outcome. Its about Israel claiming on the one hand to be a Jewish state and on the other a democracy. A real democracy does not give preferential treatment to one ethnic group. Israel can't have it both ways, either there one or the other.

    Then, there is the occupied territories, which is just further proof of why Israel is not a democracy.


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  • #421
    seanaway
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 646 ✭✭✭seanaway


    wes wrote: »
    Apologies, I misunderstood.

    Apology accepted. Hard to keep on top with so many posts:)

    I would disagree, democracy is suppose to represent everyone, and not just the majority. Giving preferential treatment to one group over another is not something a democracy does.

    A democracy can represent everyone without having to see to it that everyone gets exactly the same treatment. It is based on majority rule.
    Example: In Sweden alcohol can only be sold by state run shops (except weak piss water beer).
    One chap decided to challenge this and sold wine in hs shop in the wilder part of the country as the nearest state shop was far away.

    The state won their case that it was about people's health.
    This despite the fact that many Swedes think it is a dumb system.

    They can't have their way though because the majority still vote for politicians who uphold the health belief.


    It not about whether I like the outcome. Its about Israel claiming on the one hand to be a Jewish state and on the other a democracy. A real democracy does not give preferential treatment to one ethnic group. Israel can't have it both ways, either there one or the other.

    Then, there is the occupied territories, which is just further proof of why Israel is not a democracy.

    Occupied territories such as the Golan Heights are occupied to protect Israel. They would never have been occupied had Israel not been subjected to unprovoked invasion.


This discussion has been closed.
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