Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - Mod Notes in OP,22/7

Zico · 16-07-2014 12:52PM

Nuts102 wrote: »

How is it a cliched excuse. Both were signed as youngsters with promise. Both have never got the gametime to develop theirs skills. They are still very raw because they were messed around at the club. Both still have huge talent and i have no doubt will come good once they play regularly.

It's not a cliche to say players will improve by playing it's a fact.

WTF are you on about? They both played alot last season.

Spazdarn · 16-07-2014 12:53PM

Zico wrote: »

WTF are you on about? They both played alot last season.

Vidic and Rio were blighted with injuries, they got plenty of chances to play centrally, with drastic results.

Mitch Connor · 16-07-2014 12:56PM

ToiletFusion wrote: »

Vidic and Rio were blighted with injuries, they got plenty of chances to play centrally, with drastic results.

Sporadically. Whenever either got a CONSISTENT run with a consistent partner, they looked a lot better.

Pro. F · 16-07-2014 12:56PM

Zico wrote: »

They aren't going to get any better under a coach who plays Dirk Kuyt at left back then.:P

I think you've just given a very clichéd excuse for their failure to develop. There'll be no excuses for them under LVG.

The idea that centre-backs need build familiarity in a settled defence before they can perform is definitely not a commonly held one by the posters of this forum. So there's not a chance that my explanation is clichéd.

I think that you will always put a negative slant on United players, performances, management, actions and results whenever the opportunity presents itself.

Backstreet Moyes · 16-07-2014 12:57PM

Zico wrote: »

WTF are you on about? They both played alot last season.

They were in and out of the team short on confidence, and had no cover from lb and midfield. None of them have ever gotten a clear run of games at cb at United.

Montroseee · 16-07-2014 12:57PM

Christ, I always find it strange when people refer to either Jones or Smalling as potentially world class CB's. Where in the name of god have you seen anything to suggest so? Go and watch Varane or Mangala, these are the calibre of players with the potential to be world class. Whatever about Jones, it's definately a make or break season for Smalling.

Spazdarn · 16-07-2014 12:58PM

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Sporadically. Whenever either got a CONSISTENT run with a consistent partner, they looked a lot better.

Better maybe but good enough to run the United defence? Feels like that was the story of our season, we'd play one or two shocking games, go on a run of 3 or 4 unbeaten, think we're out of the worst, then another cock up... rinse and repeat.

Don't feel they improved that much better together.

Spazdarn · 16-07-2014 12:59PM

Nuts102 wrote: »

They were in and out of the team short on confidence, and had no cover from lb and midfield. None of them have ever gotten a clear run of games at cb at United.

The same midfield players sat in front of practically the same defence for the last 3 or 4 years and those defences did alright.

Vic Vinegar · 16-07-2014 12:59PM

cdb wrote: »

The article also says that LVG ok'ed the deal but this could be speculation.

Of course he ok'd it, it's utterly ridiculous to think anything otherwise.

Mitch Connor · 16-07-2014 01:01PM

Montroseee wrote: »

Christ, I always find it strange when people refer to either Jones or Smalling as potentially world class CB's. Where in the name of god have you seen anything to suggest so? Go and watch Varane or Mangala, these are the calibre of players with the potential to be world class. Whatever about Jones, it's definately a make or break season for Smalling.

When Smalling got a decent run of games beside Vidic a couple of seasons ago he looked absolutely amazing. Then Vidic got injured and Fergie didn't like the Rio/Smalling partnership nor Smalling/Evans, so Smalling got dropped for Rio and Evans. Since then I would say Smalling has had a very limited run of games in a settled defence at centre back, but I still maintain if he was given a proper chance there we could have a top CB on our hands.

I would also say Jones generally starts to look very good after a few games at CB, but like Smalling he got dropped or shunted elsewhere far too often.

Maximus Alexander · 16-07-2014 01:03PM

ToiletFusion wrote: »

The same midfield players sat in front of practically the same defence for the last 3 or 4 years and those defences did alright.

Weird way to look at it. The same forwards played in front of the same midfield the previous season and scored 21 more goals. The team wasn't functioning last season, so how is it fair or rational to use that as a stick to beat individual players by comparing them to prior seasons?

TheTownie · 16-07-2014 01:04PM

If Utd are in for Vidal, one possible reason for a delay would be the missing medical records from Chile. They have been mentioned a bit over the last couple days. A bit more detail available on that now.

Sport Witness ‏@Sport_Witness 6m
El Mercurio spoke to Juve doctor Fabrizio Tencone to ask if playing in the WC had been a risk and Tencone told them he didn't know because

Sport Witness ‏@Sport_Witness 5m
he hadn't been able to get the records off Chile, had no report at all. Says Juve not been able to find out about Vidal's knee.

Sport Witness ‏@Sport_Witness 4m
Conclusions from that would be that either Chile did take a risk and don't want Juve to know. That Chile all sodded off on holiday before

Sport Witness ‏@Sport_Witness 4m
fulfilling info requests from clubs or that they just won't send the info.

Sport Witness ‏@Sport_Witness 3m
Would suggest Manchester United need to be sure there's no long term damage been done.

cdb · 16-07-2014 01:07PM

Bombleswizzum wrote: »

Of course he ok'd it, it's utterly ridiculous to think anything otherwise.

I meant that it was stated in the article but it was most likely speculation on Stuart Mathieson's part and not a direct quote from Nicky Butt. Subtle but important difference.

Spazdarn · 16-07-2014 01:08PM

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

Weird way to look at it. The same forwards played in front of the same midfield the previous season and scored 21 more goals. The team wasn't functioning last season, so how is it fair or rational to use that as a stick to beat individual players by comparing them to prior seasons?

By the same rational it's hardly fair to defend their performances based on thea few fleeting performances where they didn't look terrible.

We've not had a good midfield for years, the defence has always got by. The poor midfield can't be blamed for individual errors or positional mistakes by defenders.

We spent a fortune on those two, when Chelsea specifically have bought much better potential for far cheaper in the young defenders they've bought in the last year or two.

Zico · 16-07-2014 01:10PM

Pro. F wrote: »

I think that you will always put a negative slant on United players, performances, management, actions and results whenever the opportunity presents itself.

It's hard to be heard among the cheerleaders so I just leave you guys to it.:P

I've wanted Smalling and Jones to develop into top class defenders as much as anyone.

Alas they haven't and the excuses about being played out of position and not getting enough game time, though it might have been the case last year, are no longer valid.

26 League starts for Jones and 17 for Smalling. (Jonny Evans had 17)

They're headed down the David May career path.

Doesn't matter what I think about it anyway, I won't be picking the team.:)

Vic Vinegar · 16-07-2014 01:11PM

cdb wrote: »

I meant that it was stated in the article but it was most likely speculation on Stuart Mathieson's part and not a direct quote from Nicky Butt. Subtle but important difference.

It's pointless the article mentioning that in the first place though. Goes without saying imo!

homerjay2005 · 16-07-2014 01:19PM

keane2097 wrote: »

Smalling and Jones spent most of their time over the last two years being criticised for putting in **** crosses, I think it's fair to say they haven't been given the correct developmental path at United.

maybe, just maybe Fergie and Moyes didnt think they were good enough to dislodge Rio or Vidic there, when they were fit?

i firmly believe that if they believed they were good enough to be first choice CB, they'd have been played there no matter what.

ive been jones biggest critic for the past 3 seasons and i think he deserves it. hopefully however, finally he can turn it around and Van Gaal is the man who can finally turn him into a top class player - we need it.

Pro. F · 16-07-2014 01:20PM

Zico wrote: »

It's hard to be heard among the cheerleaders so I just leave you guys to it.:P

I've wanted Smalling and Jones to develop into top class defenders as much as anyone.

Alas they haven't and the excuses about being played out of position and not getting enough game time, though it might have been the case last year, are no longer valid.

26 League starts for Jones and 17 for Smalling. (Jonny Evans had 17)

They're headed down the David May career path.

Doesn't matter what I think about it anyway, I won't be picking the team.:)

I like the way you insist on ignoring their lack of consistent games at CB in a settled defence and merely talk about number of starts. It shows that you know the flaw in your argument.

Headshot · 16-07-2014 01:24PM

TheTownie wrote: »

If Utd are in for Vidal, one possible reason for a delay would be the missing medical records from Chile. They have been mentioned a bit over the last couple days. A bit more detail available on that now.

If that is true, they have finally learnt from the Hargreaves fiasco

Vic Vinegar · 16-07-2014 01:25PM

Allegri on Vidal: "If a player wants to leave, then there is very little we can do about it. But we will do everything we can to keep them"

....

Pro. F · 16-07-2014 01:25PM

ToiletFusion wrote: »

The same midfield players sat in front of practically the same defence for the last 3 or 4 years and those defences did alright.

You do realise that we only conceded 43 goals last season yes? Does that not count as doing all right any more?

homerjay2005 · 16-07-2014 01:33PM

looks like the Vidal "deal" is not happening

redbaron_99 · 16-07-2014 01:34PM

homerjay2005 wrote: »

looks like the Vidal "deal" is not happening

enlighten us?

Lucas Hood · 16-07-2014 01:34PM

Juventus Ceo

Vidal is a Juventus player. Many things have been written. We’ve never put him up for sale , Important clubs have asked after him, but we have never sat down to talk.

Mitch Connor · 16-07-2014 01:35PM

Lucas Hood wrote: »

Juventus Ceo
Vidal is a Juventus player. Many things have been written. We’ve never put him up for sale , Important clubs have asked after him, but we have never sat down to talk.

Vidal is a Juve player, yep.
Many things have been written, yep.
Never put him up for sale, quite possibly true - reckon United put Ronaldo up for sale?
Important clubs have asked about him, yep.
Never sat down to talk - quite possible, but would guess there is a bit of a lie in that.

homerjay2005 · 16-07-2014 01:35PM

redbaron_99 wrote: »

enlighten us?

juve confirm he is not for sale. hope its just smokescreen

. added to above -

Marotta: "Players always decide their future but yesterday I checked & Vidal was happy to continue with us"

Marotta: "Vidal is a Juventus player & is not for sale. Important teams asked for him, but we will not sell him"

glued · 16-07-2014 01:36PM

homerjay2005 wrote: »

looks like the Vidal "deal" is not happening

Andy Mitten knew nothing about Herrera or Shaw either. I don't think it's happening either but they're not telling anybody about transfers and that's fairly obvious

keane2097 · 16-07-2014 01:36PM

homerjay2005 wrote: »

maybe, just maybe Fergie and Moyes didnt think they were good enough to dislodge Rio or Vidic there, when they were fit?

i firmly believe that if they believed they were good enough to be first choice CB, they'd have been played there no matter what.

ive been jones biggest critic for the past 3 seasons and i think he deserves it. hopefully however, finally he can turn it around and Van Gaal is the man who can finally turn him into a top class player - we need it.

I couldn't tell you what Ferguson or Moyes thought about them, I'm just commenting on the plain as day fact that the development strategy the club have had for them (along with almost all their promising young players in the last 15 years) has been pretty terrible.

markcahill1985 · 16-07-2014 01:37PM

homerjay2005 wrote: »

juve confirm he is not for sale. hope its just smokescreen .

"Wouldnt sell that mob a virus" springs to mind.

Rayne Wooney · 16-07-2014 01:38PM

Vidal said he would be happy to stay at Juve if the United option fell through

I don't believe he takes paper gossip as "options" myself

Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - Mod Notes in OP,22/7

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