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Gay Cake Controversy!

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    #572
    old hippy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,441 ✭✭✭old hippy


    osarusan wrote: »
    Who did they discriminate against?

    Really?????


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    #573
    dxhound2005
    Registered Users Posts: 20,743 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    old hippy wrote: »
    Mr McArthur added: "I would like the outcome of this to be that, any Christians running a business could be allowed to follow their Christian beliefs and principles in the day-to-day running of their business and that they are allowed to make decisions based on that."

    Translation - "we should allow to discriminate as we see fit based on an archaic collection of tales that have no bearing on modern life"

    Equality legislation also protects the right to hold particular religious beliefs. A bakery owned by a Muslim family could also claim that the message on the cake is offensive to their religious beliefs and forcing them to provide the cake would be against equality legislation.


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    #574
    osarusan
    Registered Users Posts: 16,572 ✭✭✭✭osarusan


    old hippy wrote: »
    Really?????
    Really.

    The man who ordered the cake is called Gareth Lee.

    Is there any evidence that they even knew he was gay?


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    #575
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    dxhound2005 wrote: »
    Equality legislation also protects the right to hold particular religious beliefs. A bakery owned by a Muslim family could also claim that the message on the cake is offensive to their religious beliefs and forcing them to provide the cake would be against equality legislation.

    Wrong. Religion is one of the grounds that a person cannot be discriminated against. The 'type' of religous belief is irrelevant in this case. You can swap out Christian for Muslim or the the Flying Spaghetti Monster it makes no difference whatsoever. It was the Bakery that refused to provide the customer with the order.


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    #576
    dxhound2005
    Registered Users Posts: 20,743 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    gozunda wrote: »
    Wrong. Religion is one of the grounds that a person cannot be discriminated against. The 'type' of religous belief is irrelevant in this case. You can swap out Christian for Muslim or the the Flying Spaghetti Monster it makes no difference whatsoever. It was the Bakery that refused to provide the customer with the order.

    You can also swap Support Gay Marriage Queerspace for Support a United Ireland Eirigi. If a bakery decides that neither is something they want to put on a cake they should have the right to refuse.


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    #577
    old hippy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,441 ✭✭✭old hippy


    osarusan wrote: »
    Really?

    The man who ordered the cake is called Gareth Lee.

    Is there any evidence that they even knew he was gay?

    I imagine the cake design kind of gave it away, don't you?


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    #578
    osarusan
    Registered Users Posts: 16,572 ✭✭✭✭osarusan


    old hippy wrote: »
    I imagine the cake design kind of gave it away, don't you?

    Only a gay person could have ordered such a cake?

    Again, is there any evidence that they knew he was gay?


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    #579
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    dxhound2005 wrote: »
    You can also swap Support Gay Marriage Queerspace for Support a United Ireland Eirigi. If a bakery decides that neither is something they want to put on a cake they should have the right to refuse.

    That's Irrelevant. 'Should' ie your opinion or 'Does' Ie what is actually in the legislation ? There is a very real difference.


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    #580
    kunst nugget
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,375 ✭✭✭✭kunst nugget


    old hippy wrote: »
    I imagine the cake design kind of gave it away, don't you?

    Could I not order the same cake as a straight man?


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    #581
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    kunst nugget wrote: »
    Could I not order the same cake as a straight man?


    That has only be suggested here for the nth time! I suggest you take a look at the actual legislation and give them a call if there are any questions or do as you suggest and order a cake!

    http://www.equalityni.org/Home


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    #582
    osarusan
    Registered Users Posts: 16,572 ✭✭✭✭osarusan


    gozunda wrote: »
    That has only be suggested here for the nth time! I suggest you take a look at the actual legislation and give them a call if there are any questions or do as you suggest and order a cake!

    http://www.equalityni.org/Home

    The letter sent by the equality commission mentions discrimination on the grounds of sexual orientation.

    Is there evidence to suggest (apart from the 'evidence' of the design of the cake, which is an extraordinarily ignorant comment) that the bakery staff/management were aware of the sexual orientation of the customer?


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    #583
    kunst nugget
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,375 ✭✭✭✭kunst nugget


    gozunda wrote: »
    That has only be suggested here for the nth time! I suggest you take a look at the actual legislation and give them a call if there are any questions or do as you suggest and order a cake!

    http://www.equalityni.org/Home

    Yeah, that doesn't answer my question. As a heterosexual, who fully supports gay marriage, could I not order that cake?


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    #584
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,933 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    osarusan wrote: »
    The letter sent by the equality commission mentions discrimination on the grounds of sexual orientation.

    Is there evidence to suggest (apart from the 'evidence' of the design of the cake, which is an extraordinarily ignorant comment) that the bakery staff/management were aware of the sexual orientation of the customer?

    Does there need to be?

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #585
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    kunst nugget wrote: »
    Yeah, that doesn't answer my question. As a heterosexual, who fully supports gay marriage, could I not order that cake?


    Yeah but it had been answered nth times as well! Go order your cake. Be happy!


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    #586
    osarusan
    Registered Users Posts: 16,572 ✭✭✭✭osarusan


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    Does there need to be?
    I think it would hard to argue that the discriminated against the customer based on their sexual orientation if they are not aware of the customer's sexual orientation.

    We would then be getting into the issue of whether a bakery has the right to refuse to put such a message on a cake, regardless of who ordered it.


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    #587
    old hippy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,441 ✭✭✭old hippy


    osarusan wrote: »
    Only a gay person could have ordered such a cake?

    Again, is there any evidence that they knew he was gay?

    Obfuscation. The customer was discriminated against. I know it, you know it, everyone knows it.

    End of.


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    #588
    kunst nugget
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,375 ✭✭✭✭kunst nugget


    gozunda wrote: »
    Yeah but it had been answered nth times as well! Go order your cake. Be happy!

    Okay. So, would the bakery have completed the order for me as a heterosexual man?


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    #589
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    osarusan wrote: »
    The letter sent by the equality commission mentions discrimination on the grounds of sexual orientation.

    Is there evidence to suggest (apart from the 'evidence' of the design of the cake, which is an extraordinarily ignorant comment) that the bakery staff/management were aware of the sexual orientation of the customer?

    1. Why is it 'extraodinarly ignorant' in your opinion?


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    #590
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    kunst nugget wrote: »
    Okay. So, would the bakery have completed the order for me as a heterosexual man?


    Is that the same as a 'straight' man. That you asked about previously?


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    #591
    osarusan
    Registered Users Posts: 16,572 ✭✭✭✭osarusan


    gozunda wrote: »
    1. Why is it 'ignorant' in your opinion?

    Are we sure they knew the customer was gay?

    Look at the cake he ordered - what else could he be?

    Extraordinarily ignorant in at least two ways - it reinforces some stereotypes about gay men, and ignores the support that is offered to the gay rights movement by heterosexuals.


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    #592
    osarusan
    Registered Users Posts: 16,572 ✭✭✭✭osarusan


    old hippy wrote: »
    Obfuscation. The customer was discriminated against. I know it, you know it, everyone knows it.

    End of.

    Except for posters like flogg and joeyparrot, who say you are talking through your arse.


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    #593
    old hippy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,441 ✭✭✭old hippy


    osarusan wrote: »
    Are we sure they knew the customer was gay?

    Look at the cake he ordered - what else could he be?

    Extraordinarily ignorant in at least two ways - it reinforces some stereotypes about gay men, and ignores the support that is offered to the gay rights movement by heterosexuals.

    Oh, I see what you're doing. Clever.
    osarusan wrote: »
    Except for people like flogg and joeyparrot, who say you are talking through your arse.

    They are entitled to their opinion. I know discrimination when I see it.


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    #594
    kunst nugget
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,375 ✭✭✭✭kunst nugget


    gozunda wrote: »
    Is that the same as a 'straight' man. That you asked about previously?

    Tell me which term you have a problem you have a problem with and I won't use it again but the question still remains. You seem to go out of your way to not answer questions properly.


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    #595
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    osarusan wrote: »
    Are we sure they knew the customer was gay?

    Look at the cake he ordered - what else could he be?

    Extraordinarily ignorant in at least two ways - it reinforces some stereotypes about gay men, and ignores the support that is offered to the gay rights movement by heterosexuals.

    Sorry I lost. So you are saying the customer was ignorant in ordering a cake with a message relevant to supporting gay marriage and civil rights
    Or
    The message itself is ignorant because of its wording or the use of cartoon figures!

    Does the cake / message have to 'acknowledge' support of heterosexuals/ Martians / the granny? And more importantly why?


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    #596
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    kunst nugget wrote: »
    Tell me which term you have a problem you have a problem with and I won't use it again but the question still remains. You seem to go out of your way to not answer questions properly.


    As I said it has been put up as a question and answered many times in this thread already. As I said go order your cake and be happy. What's the problem?


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    #597
    osarusan
    Registered Users Posts: 16,572 ✭✭✭✭osarusan


    gozunda wrote: »
    Sorry I lost. So you are saying the customer was ignorant in ordering a cake with a message relevant to supporting gay marriage and civil rights

    Why should I respond to somebody who is happy to build pathetic strawman arguments?


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    #598
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    dxhound2005 wrote: »
    You can also swap Support Gay Marriage Queerspace for Support a United Ireland Eirigi. If a bakery decides that neither is something they want to put on a cake they should have the right to refuse.

    That's not the issue and not what the EC has brought action over. It's in the letter. Read it.


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    #599
    golfball37
    Registered Users Posts: 4,570 ✭✭✭golfball37


    Any business is perfectly within their rights to refuse somebody's custom.

    Another storm in a teacup made into a big issue by the minority who want to promote their victimhood agenda on the rest of us.


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    #600
    osarusan
    Registered Users Posts: 16,572 ✭✭✭✭osarusan


    golfball37 wrote: »
    Any business is perfectly within their rights to refuse somebody's custom.

    As long as they're not breaking the law by refusing custom.

    It remains to be seen if that is the case here.


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    #601
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    osarusan wrote: »
    Why should I respond to somebody who is happy to build pathetic strawman arguments?

    Your post didn't make sense imo. Hence the questions.


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