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Gay Cake Controversy!

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    #662
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    dxhound2005 wrote: »
    One reason is that same sex couples cannot ever produce children without the parentage involving someone else outside of the relationship. Which could have a bearing on inheritance rights. And is an argument that same sex marriage cannot be exactly the same as man woman marriage. Whether it is a rational argument depends on ones point of view and does not make someone homophobic.

    I get it that you are opposed to same sex marriage - what had that got to do with the issue of discrimination that this matter has raised except that you sign up to the beliefs held by the bakery?


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    #663
    dxhound2005
    Registered Users Posts: 20,854 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    gozunda wrote: »
    And you are equating marriage between
    Two consenting adults (Currently an issue of civil rights) with a sexual attack on a corpse??

    Boy you are one sick puppy

    There is no such thing as marriage between two consenting adults unless they are of opposites sexes. The marriage law does not provided for anything else.


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    #664
    bodice ripper
    Registered Users Posts: 4,681 ✭✭✭bodice ripper


    old hippy wrote: »
    One is a message of hatred and persecution & one is a message of tolerance and love.





    .


    So basically, its ok to refuse when you disagree with the message, and not ok when you do agree with it. Got it.


    For the record, I think the bakery are dicks. But so are the customers who went out of their way to find a religious bakery to garner some free attention for their event, even though it may well destroy said bakery. These jerks deserve each other.


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    #665
    floggg
    Registered Users Posts: 5,820 ✭✭✭floggg


    osarusan wrote: »
    The question of whether or not a heterosexual customer would have also been refused is not some irrelevance - it is central to the issue of establishing whether this is a case of discrimination.

    Not necessarily no.

    Again, you are all arguing about what is or isn't against the law, but few of you actually understand the law.

    Why don't you stick to be debating what should be classed as discrimination, not what is.


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    #666
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    And you are equating the issue of marriage between Two consenting adults (Currently an issue of civil rights) with a sexual attack on a corpse??

    Boy you are one sick puppy

    dxhound2005 wrote: »
    There is no such thing as marriage between two consenting adults unless they are of opposites sexes. The marriage law does not provided for anything else.

    I have clarified that to make it a bit easier to understand ...


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    #667
    old hippy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,441 ✭✭✭old hippy


    dxhound2005 wrote: »
    I put the word Ever in my sentence for exactly that reason.

    Still a load of old pony, at the end of the day.
    Jester252 wrote: »
    Can you answer the question?

    Obfuscation.
    dxhound2005 wrote: »
    There is no such thing as marriage between two consenting adults unless they are of opposites sexes. The marriage law does not provided for anything else.

    It will. Very soon. How do you feel about that?
    bodice ripper wrote: »
    So basically, its ok to refuse when you disagree with the message, and not ok when you do agree with it. Got it.


    For the record, I think the bakery are dicks. But so are the customers who went out of their way to find a religious bakery to garner some free attention for their event, even though it may well destroy said bakery. These jerks deserve each other.

    The bakers are sending out a message of hatred. It deserves to go under.

    As for your tattoo nonsense. Obfuscation.


  • Options
    #668
    bodice ripper
    Registered Users Posts: 4,681 ✭✭✭bodice ripper


    yeah, well, that's just like your opinion, man


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    #669
    Donkey Oaty
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,533 ✭✭✭Donkey Oaty


    old hippy wrote: »
    As for your tattoo nonsense. Obfuscation.

    A precedent in this case will definitely have legal implications for tattoo artists in Northern Ireland, no question about it.


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    #670
    Jester252
    Registered Users Posts: 5,533 ✭✭✭Jester252


    old hippy wrote: »

    Obfuscation.

    So you can't answer a simple yes or no question?

    or

    You don't want to answer it because it will put a nice whole in your argument.


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    #671
    kunst nugget
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,375 ✭✭✭✭kunst nugget


    gozunda wrote: »
    You do know necrophillia is illegal? Or are you just sick?

    Do you know how an analogy works? Jumping Jesus on a pogo stick…


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    #672
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    Jester252 wrote: »
    Is it discrimination when a Jewish tattoo artist refuses to tattoo a swastikas on a neo-nazi. If the message doesn't matter than he discriminated against the neo-nazi.

    I will post this again for your benefit as there seems to be some difficulty of understanding ...
    bodice ripper wrote: »
    I refuse to tattoo swastikas, wolfangels etc. Am I wrong to do that?

    Context is everything. The bakery representative refusal was stated as follows:

    "This order was at odds with our beliefs and in contradiction with what the Bible teaches".

    And they did in the knowledge that the order was for a LGBT event.

    No mention of the message. This is what has got them into trouble. Simple


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    #673
    kunst nugget
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,375 ✭✭✭✭kunst nugget


    old hippy wrote: »
    Obfuscation.

    You're getting great value for money out of that word of the day website…


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    #674
    osarusan
    Registered Users Posts: 16,586 ✭✭✭✭osarusan


    gozunda wrote: »
    And they did in the knowledge that the order was for a LGBT event.
    Has this been established?


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    #675
    dxhound2005
    Registered Users Posts: 20,854 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    Donkey Oaty wrote: »
    A precedent in this case will definitely have legal implications for tattoo artists in Northern Ireland, no question about it.

    And for lots of other businesses. If a printer who is a Muslim is asked by a customer to print material promoting Same Sex Marriage and he refuses he could be subject to the very same complaint as the baker is facing. Even though his refusal had nothing whatever to do with the sexual orientation of the customer.


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    #676
    Awkward Badger
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,414 ✭✭✭Awkward Badger


    gozunda wrote: »
    I will post this again for your benefit as there seems to be some difficulty of understanding ...
    I refuse to tattoo swastikas, wolfangels etc. Am I wrong to do that?

    Context is everything. The bakery representative refusal was stated as follows:

    "This order was at odds with our beliefs and in contradiction with what the Bible teaches".

    And they did in the knowledge that the order was for a LGBT event.

    No mention of the message. This is what has got them into trouble. Simple

    Operative word there. Order, which was a cake. Not the customers sexuality.


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    #677
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    Donkey Oaty wrote: »
    A precedent in this case will definitely have legal implications for tattoo artists in Northern Ireland, no question about it.

    And 'christian' bakeries, and gay people and civil rights and well lots of others ...


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    #678
    Donkey Oaty
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,533 ✭✭✭Donkey Oaty


    dxhound2005 wrote: »
    And for lots of other businesses. If a printer who is a Muslim is asked by a customer to print material promoting Same Sex Marriage and he refuses he could be subject to the very same complaint as the baker is facing.

    Indeed. I'll just highlight last year's printing controversy again, because it is very relevant to the current issue - and it seems there was no legal action taken to date.

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/mar/29/printer-refuses-publish-gay-magazine


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    #679
    coffee_cake
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Politics Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 81,309 CMod ✭✭✭✭coffee_cake


    osarusan wrote: »
    Has this been established?

    Think so
    The gay rights activist customer who ordered the cake also wanted the logo of a campaign group called Queerspace included.


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    #680
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    Awkward Badger wrote: »
    Operative word there. Order, which was a cake. Not the customers sexuality.


    And the order was made by _ _ _ _
    for _ _ _ _ who are _ _ _ _




    I left it so you can fill in the spaces yourself.


  • Options
    #681
    Donkey Oaty
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,533 ✭✭✭Donkey Oaty


    gozunda wrote: »
    And the order was made by _ _ _ _
    for _ _ _ _ who are _ _ _ _


    I left it so you can fill in the spaces yourself.

    We should get a few good suggestions for that...


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  • Options
    #682
    Awkward Badger
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,414 ✭✭✭Awkward Badger


    gozunda wrote: »
    And the order was made by _ _ _ _
    for _ _ _ _ who are _ _ _ _


    I left it so you can fill in the spaces yourself.

    It doesn't matter given it was the order itself and not the customer which resulted in the refusal of service.

    Same as the tattoo artist having an issue with the content of the tattoo rather than having an issue with the customer themselves.


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    #683
    Jester252
    Registered Users Posts: 5,533 ✭✭✭Jester252


    gozunda wrote: »
    And the order was made by _ _ _ _
    for _ _ _ _ who are _ _ _ _


    I left it so you can fill in the spaces yourself.

    Can you proof the order was placed by a LGBT person?

    They never mention an issue with the customer.


  • Options
    #684
    NewCorkLad
    Registered Users Posts: 957 ✭✭✭NewCorkLad


    gozunda wrote: »



    Context is everything. The bakery representative refusal was stated as follows:

    "This order was at odds with our beliefs and in contradiction with what the Bible teaches".
    gozunda wrote: »
    And the order was made by _ _ _ _
    for _ _ _ _ who are _ _ _ _




    I left it so you can fill in the spaces yourself.

    As you previously posted it was the order they had a problem with not _ _ _ _ who are _ _ _ _


  • Options
    #685
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    NewCorkLad wrote: »
    As you previously posted it was the order they had a problem with not _ _ _ _ who are _ _ _ _


    The 'order' did not just materialise out of thin air as in the Harry Potter books...

    The legislation does not separate the customer from the service. Hence the issue


  • Options
    #686
    old hippy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,441 ✭✭✭old hippy


    Jester252 wrote: »
    So you can't answer a simple yes or no question?

    or

    You don't want to answer it because it will put a nice whole in your argument.

    This is about a bakery who refused to serve a customer because they do not want equality for gay people. Because of their belief system- a system which promotes hatred against gay people. Your questions are mere obfuscation.

    And that's the whole of the story.


  • Options
    #687
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,044 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    floggg wrote: »
    Not necessarily no.

    Again, you are all arguing about what is or isn't against the law, but few of you actually understand the law.

    Why don't you stick to be debating what should be classed as discrimination, not what is.

    I know. Theres 45 pages of people talking rubbish and not actually knowing at all what they are talking about.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Options
    #688
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,044 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Jester252 wrote: »
    Can you proof the order was placed by a LGBT person?

    They never mention an issue with the customer.
    Whats an lgbt person?

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #689
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    I know. Theres 45 pages of people talking rubbish and not actually knowing at all what they are talking about.

    Correction that's 58 panes and counting ...

    I guess that includes all of us Joey ;)

    I will add the following as it may be of some use ....
    We have listed below current legislation relevant to gender/sex discrimination. You should note that equality and anti-discrimination law may be changed or updated. The law is also complex and can require interpretation. Please feel free to contact our discrimination advice team if you need clarification or guidance on what the law means. Email: discriminationadvice@equalityni.org or tel: 028 90 500 600.


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    #690
    old hippy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,441 ✭✭✭old hippy


    NewCorkLad wrote: »
    As you previously posted it was the order they had a problem with not _ _ _ _ who are _ _ _ _

    Nah. It was down to this:

    "what the Bible teaches"

    It teaches irrational hatreds.


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    #691
    kunst nugget
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,375 ✭✭✭✭kunst nugget


    Awkward Badger wrote: »
    In fairness floggg if you have an issue with what people post report it. Don't sit there and back seat mod telling everyone they are talking rubbish and advising them what they should and should not be discussing ?

    Tbf, he's right. It is an ongoing case and we have no idea what way it will be resolved. In essence, most of have been doing nothing more than debating what should be classed as discrimination and how religious freedom and discrimination on sexual orientation can intersect, should one trump they other or are we dealing with direct or indirect discrimination or is it discrimination at all.


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